Do you do time out or the naughty spot?

[Laranna]

Tanstar - agree, that's how I see the 1,2,3 work. Long winded explanations are sometimes just too much for my 3 year old, straight to the point. You can explain something in a short sentence and I think the message is clearer and doesn't get lost in all the talk. Straight to the point. Sometimes us adults talk too much

MadB - see when DS pushes DD over he gets a 'that's 3' and time out in another room while I tend to DD. If I was to go straight to him and sit down with him to talk about what happened, then he clicks on to getting the attention from me when he does something like that. More often than not he will come out of time out and tell me what he wanted without any prompting from me. And then we have a quick chat about it all and be on our merry way

[onthefly]

so you reckon the end result is the same?

I used to do 1,23 - it seemed to work with DS. until he started daring us to get to 3. then it kind of felli n a heap because if he didn't want to do something (or did) then that was that (found the same thing with rewards, which I never wanted to do anyway). so we had to start talking about it and explain why we need to do something (or not do it). we do still use the countdown thing, though, maybe it' sa bit different. gives him warning that something or other is coming up or going to change. he negotiates about how much time is left though. Me: 3 minutes to go! Him: No, I want 4 minutes!

I do wonder how we'll have to do things differently wiht DD. We can see she's a different character - wonder to what extent we'll need to modify our approach. You know I was really surprised today to see that she understood when I told her mummy was sore because she bit my finger. She showed such empathy - something I never noticed in DS at this age. I had thought little kids were really self-absorbed and wrapped up in their own stuff, but I suppose it must actually vary a fair bit.

anyway, time out for me is just a last-resort circuit breaker if things get out of hand. It doesn't work for me as a means of teaching.

[Smoke Jaguar]

No-one said anything about long-winded - just an explanation, so as not to underestimate their understanding My kids deserve a considered and intelligent explanation that fosters positive and constructive thinking. My 2yo understands so much more than I often think she will, and I only know this because I will explain something that I want and she goes off to do it. I could so easily underestimate her and end up with tantrums and frustration. We don't have them, unless it's a safety issue (like wanting to ride my horse or wanting to go in the car when she's not supposed to be coming with me!), because our kids feel understood - not always catered to, but understood, which helps us all heaps. No-one wants to feel fobbed off.
One thing I learned from a very wise mama was to 'tend to the injured'. I model for the 'offending' child how to check for injuries, and to soothe the other party, by genuinely caring for the injured party and saying "I'm so sorry that this happened to you". When the height of the injury is passed, the offender can come over and I'll show them and talk to them about how their actions caused the situation, without inducing shame. DS now hates me apologising on his behalf, so he comes over and apologises on his own behalf, with a kiss - which is sometimes rejected and I tell him that he'll have to wait until DD is feeling safe enough to take his kiss and snuggle. The offender gets to see the fallout in all its glory - no time outs so that they can't experience a real consequence. DS feels terrible when he's hurt his sister (always by accident, or as a side-effect of another goal of his), because he knows what her face looks like when it's sad, he knows how many snuggles she needs etc.
I find something else of very useful value - telling my kids what I want them to do, instead of what I don't want them to do. Being specific helps them so much. Telling them the thing you don't want them to do only focuses on what you don't want...which takes their minds back to that thing and even in an adult brain negatives like this don't get processed well at all and the brain just hears "x", instead of "don't do x". Giving real options, again may take more initial brain effort, gives kids opportunities to learn about how the world works. It doesn't sell them short.
Then again, it seems clear that my parenting isn't about needing to be 'boss'. I'm not interested in being 'the boss', I just carry the moral, social and legal responsibility for the kids. If I stop making sense to them they are allowed to question that and pull me up on it. I've been taught to do that to any senior officer in charge on the fireground if I feel my safety is being compromised - blind obedience is dangerous. For kids it's risky, and teaches them to override their instincts. I'm not interested in training my kids to be obedient adults, so why would I train them to be obedient kids?
I know, all my descriptions here sound like hard work and unachievable. When I first started reading about more effective, compassionate and conscious parenting I thought I wouldn't be able to get anywhere close. I prioritised it and have a really great dynamic with my kids. And I have a son who blew his kinder teacher away with his level of articulation for explaining concepts and situations. No kidding - she said she could never forget DS because of this, and because of how much he knew and could tell her about. He wasn't a teacher's pet, he was just easier to get along with because he went into kinder knowing he could share with the kids and teachers, and really cooperate for mutually agreeable outcomes. He's not 'gifted', I just have rarely underestimated him and his comprehension - and when I have it hasn't lasted long
Try it - next time you catch yourself thinking "x won't understand, how do I give a kids' explanation?", try explaining some of the concepts behind the situation. If you don't know the answer, admit it and look it up - kids LOVE that because they learn something WITH you! I explained to DS, when he was nearly 3, what the Elvis Skycrane does and what it was doing the day there was a fire in Belgrave - he still rattles it off to all and sundry.
Explaining things to kids can also be confronting. You may be trying to explain why people do certain things, or why a certain rule exists and find that it makes very little sense and has very little relevance. You realise that if you explained it to an alien new to the planet they'd laugh at us. I admit these things to my kids. Like when DS asks me why I epilate my underarms and legs. I say that lots of people feel better when they don't have to look at someone else's underarm hair because that's how we've been trained to think about looking nice. I tell him that the hair grows there and is ok to be there and sometimes I get rid of it because it's expected of me, even though it's really a silly idea. It's fun helping him see through conventions and to question custom! It was even fun explaining Christmas, and why a lot of the songs he'd hear over Christmas would have words about a character called Jesus, also called Christ or the Messiah. I said some people believe he would save the world because they believe he is the one in an ancient prophecy. He said "Prophecy...like in the Dark Crystal?" - bingo! These kinds of connections don't just start happening - I've been teaching his brain to wrap around ideas since I knew he could understand more than he could speak.
Underestimate your children at your own, and their risk, is all I'm saying. They WILL surprise you

[Beach Mama]

If underestimating my kids, being a "boss", blind obedience and long winded explanations is what coming across then I am bowing out as I'm not doing a very good job of explaining 123. People are always going to vary on how they parent, 123 works for us most of the time with our kids amazingly still having empathy, understanding why they are in time out and realising that just as in life there are consequences if your break basic rules. Peace out mamas.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Might be better to bow out if you're going to take what I said that way I said it as a way that I have thought of for my parenting for years, and not as a way of accusing anyone or saying that's what they're being. The terms I use are ones that help me form my parenting path and what to avoid. It was someone else who described explanations to kids as 'long-winded', and I responded with my thoughts on why I don't consider it to be such.
You're already doing 1-2-3, others are, just as I'm already doing my own thought-out process. We're all talking through (as far as I was aware) our rationales behind our 'methods'. This is an appropriate space to do it in - we're removed from an intense situation where we need to act quickly and can afford a bit more time in explanations to ourselves and to others who may be inclined to adopt some of our own ways for their own kids.
That's the thing about forums - there are lots more readers than contributors, and people are drawn to topics for heaps of reasons. Some might be thinking "I've always wondered about how to use 1-2-3" or "I don't really want to have to use time-out, what are my alternatives and are they realistic/effective?" and each of our posts will hopefully help those people form their own opinions and ways.
So, I was expanding on my own thoughts about how I've come to view my kids, my role with them and the ultimate purpose of my job as a mum. It's not a specific response to anyone else's posts. HTH, and if you've already left on a misunderstanding then it will likely help someone else to navigate the discussion
If something discomfits you as you are reading, then explore it within yourself, discuss it with your partner - get to the bottom of it and work from there. Challenges are perfectly ok and they help you grow - whether you decide to remain on current course or change tack.

[Miss E]

Tanstar, I just wanted to say that I very much appreciate you sharing your parenting methods, as I have Mayaness, Mad B, Laranna and everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

I originally asked the question because I myself was struggling with what I think are some pretty common 2 year old behaviors. Having so many wise and wonderful women tell me how they work with their children has helped me to regain my confidence, which dipped for a couple of days there, and opened my mind to a host of other ways of doing them. Through each and everyone's contribution I've been able to reflect on the way we handle things in our house and find ways to improve our approach. That's not to say that any one persons approach is better or more worthy than somebody elses, they're different, it's about what works for their family. By everyone sharing, DH and I can make things work better for our family.

Thanks

[Laranna]

Yeah MadB I guess end result is the same but DD would get the attention first so her needs are met. I'd like DS to learn that he isn't going to get my attention by hurting his sister. It's a hard balancing act sometimes. And I'm finding similar with DD in that she is a different personality as well so it will be interesting to see how she goes. She is a lot more empathatic and considerate than DS at the same age (or even now) so maybe it's a girl thing

I am new to having to start influencing DS's behaviours and actions and 1-2-3 is working really well for us at the moment. I was becoming a yeller and I hated it because I don't want him to remember me yelling at him. Counting is just as much for me as it is for him. Knowing I have that strategy up my sleeve helps me keep my cool

Like Tanstar said it is totally not about blind obedience. Count the negatives. Reinforce the positives. Be warm and assertive, friendly and firm. We do the talking, I just give the time out first and then an appropriate explanation if needed. For my DS that works because he's a big talker and we just go around and around in circles. For us, a short one sentence explanation gets the message immediately across and if he comes asking more questions later I explain as much as I need to. I don't count everything either, just the negative behaviours I really want him to stop.

Mayaness, I have really enjoyed reading your point of view too.

[Smoke Jaguar]

That's it right there - the point of forum discussions
I've been going through a challenging period here (end of kinder, school coming up, new things happening all the time) and had been going over my trusty resources to reaffirm my parenting origins, too! It really has been timely, and the opportunity to articulate it has helped me heaps with my kids this week.
Thank YOU!

[Beach Mama]

Kids learn their world by repetition, not by 1-2-3's. That only teaches them blind obedience.

I didn't "take" anything. I have learnt heaps too and it's made me think hard about why we are doing what we do, what I can change. I just feel like the way 123 is used hasn't come across in my posts correctly and feel that is a shame because it really is a great method, it's gentle, allows for mutual respect but I haven't articulated it and done it justice! Hopefully others who do use it can come and clear up my messy explanations of how it works!! I was only going to stop posting about 123 for the reason that my examples weren't doing the method any justice for the OP and hopefully others can do a better job explaining it.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the 'Magic' thing in that post (though I referred to the technique in a subsequent post in terms of you using it ), cos I've only heard of it in this thread before now. I'm thinking of people I've known who say "Do x now. 1. 2. 3." - no explanations and it sets the kids up for failure. Unfortunate analogy cos I didn't clarify that I wasn't referring to the 'magic' thing!
A good illustration of learning something new! If someone could explain the rationale and technique, that would help - cos references to it have been incomplete here. Thanks

[Beach Mama]

Ahh ok gotcha! Gotta love the interweb for nuances and not being able to talk things out in person!

[Laranna]

Mayaness, 1-2-3 Magic uses counting for 'stop' behaviours (e.g. throwing, fighting, whining, arguing, yelling, badgering etc). Counting negative behaviours gives the children a chance to make their own choice regarding their behaviour. That's 1 gives a warning, they have a chance to stop. That's 2, another warning for them to correct themselves or move on to something else. If they can't do it that's when you count that's 3 and step in for them with a brief explanation and a time out or a time out alternative. Giving them a chance to correct their own behaviour teaches them to think about what's right or wrong. The only time to intervene immediately is if they are physically hurting someone else or doing something unsafe.

An example...I'm cooking dinner and DS comes into the kitchen asking for something to eat.
DS: Can I have something to eat?
Me: No bub, dinner will be ready in 15 minutes. <-- that's my explanation/reason
DS: (yelling at me) But I want something to eat!!!! I'm HUNGRY!!
Me: That's 1
DS: (whining) But that's not fair!!!
Me: That's 2
DS: (sighs) okay
We move on and I might get him to help me set the table or finish cooking, something he can do or he plays with his toys or reads a books if he wants to.

It does not use counting for 'start' behaviours. Start behaviours are things such as picking up toys, eating, homework, bedtime, getting ready in the mornings, etc. Instead of counting, you would use praise, simple requests, kitchen timers, docking system (for the older kids who get pocket money), natural consequences or charting. For example, getting the kids to pick up the toys before dinner, I would set a timer for 20 minutes and if it's not done in that time, then they have a privelege removed for a certain time. If they do do it in that time frame, they get a cheer and a thank you for helping. I also randomly show appreciation such as "Hey DS, thanks for helping me put your toys away yesterday". Kinda when they least expect it sorta thing. I feel that has more value and is more genuine.

Google Behaviour Tonics, they sum it up pretty well and if you get a chance to grab a copy of 1-2-3 Magic from your local library, it is well worth reading even just for the understanding of it all. A few of my teacher friends recommended it to me, they use it in a lot of schools here so I'm told, so it has the advantage that the same methods are used at home and at school giving a nice consistency for the kids.

Hope that helps a bit more.

[wysiwyg]

That's the thing about forums - there are lots more readers than contributors, and people are drawn to topics for heaps of reasons. Some might be thinking "I've always wondered about how to use 1-2-3" or "I don't really want to have to use time-out, what are my alternatives and are they realistic/effective?" and each of our posts will hopefully help those people form their own opinions and ways.

Exactly I have been following this thread with interest, DH is concerned about DD's behavior and how to tackle it - he feels less knowledgeable in how to deal with her (just as a result of not spending the amount of time I do with her and other toddlers) and he likes to read stuff - so will get him a few books to look at from the library. Am getting the 1-2-3 magic book from the library, but Mayaness is there something you would also recommend?

I am more into feeling my own way round these things, and actually think my greatest issue is forgetting how young DD is (partly because she is extremely conversational) and having too high expectations sometimes, not in terms of what she can understand as I think she understands most stuff but in her ability to be in control of her actions and reactions to things.

[onthefly]

I would recommend getting a copy of Parent Effectiveness Training (PET) from the library also. Really interesting read. When I started it I got through the first chapter or so, put it down and thought 'what utter crap' That's not right.... but it sort of percolated through my brain a bit and started to make sense. It just really, really challenged all my thinking (or rather assumptions) about my role as parent and my relationship with my child.
For me, it's not a how-to guide - I don't want one of them - but just the foundations for a whole different perspective on my parenting and the way I want to relate to my kids. It does offer some practical suggestions, but, as always, I think you have to figure out the ins and outs according to your specific needs.

How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk is a good read also. A much 'slimmer' volume. It's more for older kids really, but again, it's more about the foundations and thinking about how you want to relate to your kids.

It seems like Alfie Kohn has some interesting things to say also, just based on things I've read in here, though I haven't actually read him myself.

The science of parenting/what every parent should know - good for understanding normal development
Raising a happy child (I think that's what it's called.... by Biddulph) - some nice ideas on discipline (again, for me, it's about he approach/perspective, rather than a specific guide)

[wysiwyg]

Thanks for the info - have read The Science of Parenting one - not sure about the Biddulph one (I read one called Raising Girls I think and hated it, thought was full of generalizations but not sure if that was by him or related to it - he is the Raising Boys guy right?) - damn Raising a Happy Child was being given away with membership renewal by ABA but offer ran out 31 Dec - will be in Library anyway.

[RockingBaker]

I use timeout as DS is very violent and needs the space to calm down. The only way for him to achieve this is to be removed from the situation for a small amount of time. With my DDs we 'use our words' as they call it. We talk about why we don't do things or why they want to do things (in an age appropriate way) and we usually work it out. Occasionally they get a turn in time out but it is very rare now.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I'm not much liking the sound of 1-2-3-magic - it's seems rewards based and targets the symptom 'behaviours' rather than the actual cause. I won't be using it or recommending it. Thanks for the explanation, though
The two books I love both use Parent Effectiveness Training very heavily in their foundations, and that's Robin Grille (Heart to Heart Parenting) and Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting, which is about parenting without rewards and punishments and using reasoning and love. Takes more emotional and intellectual effort than 1-2-3-Magic, and is so, so worth it for the 'rewards' you reap in children who are assumed to be too young for reasoning
For boys, the Steve Biddulph book Raising Boys is just fantastic. It's not like Raising Girls at all. Two different authors - Steve specialises in boys and men's counselling and the Girls one is written by someone else who actually focusses more on older girls, so isn't much use from baby to toddlerhood. Well worth reading the Boys one, and getting your fella the Manhood book by the same author.
The books and authors I recommend work very much with developmental knowledge and what children can and can't cope with at certain stages (not ages, so it's going to be up to you to know what stage your child is going into). They are not 'one size fits all' and that's what I like about them. Children's 'behaviours' may exhibit similarly and their motivations are specific to that child's background, the day they've had, the parenting style they've had, their genetic make up - so you can 1-2-3 the same behaviours and get the same trained responses and you won't change the motivations or get to the bottom of what they're thinking without reasoning with them and letting them tell you in their way (which requires a lot of empathy and listening skills that we get told we don't need for small children).
That's just what I think and what I use, and people still think I just got 'lucky' with my kids which is hard to take when I know how much work I put in, in the background!

[Laranna]

I'd actually read the book Mayaness before you can compare the different methods. Saying 1-2-3 Magic doesn't take as much emotional and intellectual effort as PET is rubbish and quite harsh. All parenting methods take a lot of emotional and intellectual effort. You can't scale them against each other.
I've seen parents in my circle of family and friends use both methods or similar methods and they all work well. The results are the same. All kids are loving and have great relationships with their parents.
Being a parent is trial and error and one just needs to work out what suits ones own family.