Really interesting topic of conversation. I think it helps to remember that parenting programs like these are aimed at the whole continuum of families - from educated, responsive parents who are pretty much on top of things and just want a few more strategies, right though to families where there are multiple complicating issues, parents with poor attachment or no skills, parents who've never experienced what a functional family looks like, maybe they've been left to fend for themselves in a state of emotional neglect, or who've been brought up under an authoritarian rule of fear where they were spanked for all misbehaviour - but who are motivated to do better for their own kids than has been done for them. And that there is a whole continuum of behaviour in the community that most of us can't really fathom. Some kids have much lower levels of impulse control than what we think is normal. So maybe for some kids there is more of an element of defiance then for other kids.

I personally don't think that urinating or vomiting is purely an act of defiance, it seems unlikely that a kid would act it out unless there was stress as well. If the stress is related to the ongoing circus of negative family interactions, then you can't address the stress without also addressing the heightened conflict. Parents need tools to place boundaries and manage escalated behaviour BUT - the main goal of parenting programs is not to wait until it gets that far. The goal is to intervene effectively so that the stress/conflict/defiance/whatever you want to call it doesn't escalate in the first place.

I'm not familiar with the 1-2-3 Magic thing, I had seen it mentioned on BB a couple of times and wondered what it was about, and I borrowed the book at the library this week (haven't read it yet). On the front cover there is cheesy conservative-looking American family, and the subtitle is "Effective discipline for children 2-13" (my emphasis). In contrast, the parenting classes I attended in the past were called Triple P - Positive parenting program. Vast difference IMO between a focus on "discipline" and one of "parenting".