DS and daycare

[Miss.September]

We decided to give DD1 the extra year a few years back. We could see that she wasn't as emotionally mature as other kids she would be in the same class as. She turned five in March and will start school next year. Academically, she is ahead. A huge number of kids in her kinder year are already five. The ones who are not, you can see the massive difference. We have chosen a school that offers both recovery programs and extension programs.

We are completely confident with our decision to send her later. She has benefitted from the 15 hours of kinder , plus the 5 hours of three year old kinder she did last year.

Keep in mind that it's looking like the 15 hour kinder week is being cut back to 10 hours again, so it might have an impact on those making decisions for next year (especially if the child has already done 15 hours this year).

[wysiwyg]

I went to a session about school readiness this evening - and I was really quite amazed at how screwed up the system is - it sounds like going forwards due to the fact is now difficult to get more than one year of 4 year old kinder - that really they are asking parents to make a decision when the child is two. This doesn't affect me personally due to when my 2 are born - but this seems a totally ridiculous system - and also builds inequity, due to the financial constraints on staying home / and or paying for childcare. They were saying basically make your decision at 2 and stick with it (which was a bit at odds with the talk about various signs of readiness) - but at 2 as you clearly can not really tell - surely this is going to mean more people will opt for the deferment because is so difficult to get off the chain once you start into 3 year old kinder.

It really amazes me that at talks like the above - the financial implications of deciding when to start school are totally ignored - if it is as vital as is made out, to start when child is ready, then how come there is so little concern about the fact that for many families they really may not be able to go with deferment due to the financial implications.

Nothing was mentioned about the kinder week being cut back to 10 hours again though (no one asked the specific question though)- although like you say Miss S - it looks likely

[Ginger]

Honestly, I made the decision when ds2 was born and have stuck to it. Even if I thought he was ready before 3 yo kinder, I wouldn't have sent him.

[wysiwyg]

Honestly, I made the decision when ds2 was born and have stuck to it. Even if I thought he was ready before 3 yo kinder, I wouldn't have sent him.

If people are able to make that decision from when they are born, that is fair enough - but not everyone will be able to do that, and to me it seems rather unfair as it it disadvantages those who don't have the means to plan to be at home or pay for daycare. The presenter even said that the focus is very different depending on what suburb she is presenting in, which is hardly surprising really given the financial implications. I am not familiar with the reasons why they have made it so difficult for people to access a second year of funded four year old kinder - but to me it is a cost cutting measure which disadvantages the people who might well need it most. (The other bit I thought annoying was that it was suggested have a list of things that can do with your child instead of a 3 year old kinder year - and it was all paid (relatively expensive activities) - now I am hoping that is just due to where I live (and other areas suggest cheaper alternatives like playgroups etc) - but it also seemed at odds to me with the concept of play-based learning, and wanting to avoid overscheduling).

She was a good speaker though, and the list of maturity items that she went through was interesting (although I think if you have a child who has been in childcare for quite a while, children who are significantly younger than school age could pass the test (that doesn't mean I think they should go to school - but just that I think some of the things are just a matter of repeated exposure, rather than a definite sign of maturity). The session was run for free by the council (and sounds like is run by many councils) and I think is worth it if interested in the topic/need to make a decision.

[Lenny]

I know you'll hate me for it wysiwyg, but school is not a babysitting service and financially it might be better for someone to return to work one year earlier, but alternative arrangements should be made.

School is not a place for a child to go so a parent can work. That is selfish. Putting ones own immediate financial gain ahead of the pressure that an unready child puts on an already struggling school system. That child takes focus, time, and attention away from the other children. So to everyone else's detriment.

And I haven't even mentioned the emotional toll on the child itself.

Immediate family finances should never come into it.

[wysiwyg]

I know you'll hate me for it wysiwyg, but school is not a babysitting service and financially it might be better for someone to return to work one year earlier, but alternative arrangements should be made.

School is not a place for a child to go so a parent can work. That is selfish. Putting ones own immediate financial gain ahead of the pressure that an unready child puts on an already struggling school system. That child takes focus, time, and attention away from the other children. So to everyone else's detriment.

And I haven't even mentioned the emotional toll on the child itself.

Immediate family finances should never come into it.

No 'hate' here -

My point is – the system is not encouraging people to make the right decision for their child.* Whether you like it or not, some people do require both parents to work – for survival of their family (please don’t someone mention just cut back on expenses – I am not talking about my situation, but in general society).* I am not suggesting people should send unready children to school – but many people can not afford to make the decision when that child is born, or when they are 2 to have an extra year of childcare fees (quite likely they will already be working prior to school return in some capacity) or at home just on the off chance that they might turn out not to be ready when they are 4/5.** If you have three children – that year for each of them can be a huge burden.* What should happen is people should be able to make the decision whether to have an extra year of 4 year old, when they are 4.* **Now according to the talk, this is what happened in the past (recent past included), everyone could, just based on parental choice really (I support parental choice) – but now maybe due to the demand for it due to parental choice it means that those who are potentially not ready (according to the talk – is only recognised documented developmental delays and issues that will be considered) – can’t access it due to the fact their parents couldn’t afford to not step onto the treadmill on the off chance that the child might not be ready.* The system favours the more affluent and disadvantages lower income earners.

*
I thought it most interesting that in the talk – it was mentioned about why we have such an ‘early’ school age.* It was apparently due to the war and women having to take over the jobs of men so school was somewhere for the children to go, I thought it interesting that the speaker didn’t consider the parallels of today where also women are moving back into the workforce (through necessity many of them) earlier.* **There is a big 'head in the sand' approach in my opinion to school starting age and affordable options prior to school.*** If school is not the appropriate place then affordable/accessible options should be provided (as is the case in all countries with late starting ages) for children earlier – if we want to avoid children who are not ready being sent to school.*** I can’t understand why instead of people looking at the system and what it is actually forcing people into doing – people are so ready to assume the worst of others – ‘using school as free babysitting service for their own financial gain’.


Now maybe my understanding on this is wrong but my DD is born end of May 2009 – so I have to send her to school next year right 2015?* They have to be enrolled in school the year they turn 6?* Given that the April cutoff date is arbitrary (apparently at one point they wanted to just make it calendar year based – like in Tassie, but politically this wasn’t conducive so they went with April)* - then what would happen if I felt that *she didn’t meet the readiness criteria?* (she does) but this bit I don’t understand – they have to be ‘ready’ because otherwise schools might have issues as outlined by Lenny in dealing with them, but you also have to meet the legal requirement – doesn’t the legal requirement also lead to students attending school who might not be quite ready and therefore schools are well versed in dealing with a range of maturity and skill levels in Foundation?

[~Kim~]

FWIW in NSW they don't even have a funded kinder system. Most preschools except council ones are private and the fees reflect that. Many childers don't go to preschool/kinder at all before starting formal schooling.

[HotI]

Honestly, I made the decision when ds2 was born and have stuck to it. Even if I thought he was ready before 3 yo kinder, I wouldn't have sent him.

So your decision wasn't based on his readiness at all?

[Ginger]

So your decision wasn't based on his readiness at all?

No. My decision had absolutely nothing to do with his readiness.

[~Kim~]

A cheap one was$45 a day 4 years ago.
Here we have kinder the year before they start school. No questions asked if they stay a second year. $60 a term. You all might have to move to the NT

[Olive]

Ours are $350 a term

[Ginger]

Fees are different if you go public or private in Vic. There's no problem in repeating 4yo kinder in ds2's private kinder. In fact, a few kids have done both 3 and 4yo kinder at a public kinder, and then done a year at the private kinder in order to repeat 4yo.

[wysiwyg]

Yes one of the answers that was given at the talk was to go to a private kinder for a repeat of 4 year old (theoretically you can self-fund at a public kinder but only if there are spare places - which there aren't in general) - so fees for independent schools for kinder this is an example from one which seemed about the middle range of round here

$1660 a term (that is for two days a week 8:45 to 15:00 - there is before and after care can add on $25 a day if need that) - plus $100 for materials, plus $700 enrollment fee.

Great if you can afford it but hardly an equitable solution.

The other option they were suggesting was childcare based kinder - which would work out cheaper than the above (unless using 5 days a week), but again there is so much demand for childcare that could also be difficult as well as more expensive than sessional kinder (sessional kinder round here is more like 600 - if you have a health care card is around 80 )

[Ginger]

Yeah I think ds's kinder is $7000 for the year, for 3 days a week 9.00-3.00.

[myturn]

I know some people will disagree with me here.... But.....

I actually think "school readiness" is a bit of a misnomer.... Teachers and schools are able to differentiate and adjust activities for different levels of ability and skill levels (I know its difficult, but it can be done) whether or not a child fits this idea of 'school ready'. And let's think about it....

Some kids are never ready.

So. Some parents hold kids back and year and some parents don't. We end up with an even more distributed population and skill set that teachers need to differentiate and adjust their teaching even more. Some kids learn quicker than others regardless of age... So adding in an extra layer of kids being held back a year just adds another layer to the issue.

How do you REALLY know if your child is ready.....?? I've had parents SURE that their kid was... And they struggled to settle in and learn. I've had parents not sure and the kid was fine.... I've had parents not sure and the kinder teacher WAS sure they'd be fine... And they weren't....

I really believe that typically developing children will be fine, wether you send them the year you are supposed to or not. That's most of our kids.

There will always be a normal distribution of skill and "readiness". Whether we hold some kids back or not. We just a just the distribution of skill by holding some kids back and others not.

In over ten years of working in schools I have yet to see any evidence that holding back or not helps. Either way. The research is quite clear that repeating is not good for children. The research also shows that children in countries with a later starting age do equally as well as countries where children start young. I have been unable to find research about the benefits of holding a child back from starting school whatever the school starting age is.

I think we worry too much about whether our child is ready. They are young. They will learn. And assuming they have had a typical upbringing with a stable family life..... they will be okay whichever way we do it. So we all need to make our decisions based on what works for our family.

Personally I don't think holding them back makes a difference to their academic outcomes or "success" or wellbeing at school.... The problem I see, is that so many parents are holding their children back if they are in the 'young' end of the age range, with no other reason than they are young.... so you disadvantage your child if you don't hold them back.... We may as well just increase the school starting age to compensate for it.... That's why the young kids stand out. There's such a big gap between a four year old and a nearly six year old.... Society is artificially making a bigger issue with it than we need to. There are pros and cons with finishing school at an older age as well... So you can't ever really 'get it perfectly right'.

But that's just my two bobs worth. I know it might be controversial to some. I just find it exceptionally frustrating in my field.

[Olive]

Wysiwyg at our kinder those repeating get priority over everyone else, regardless of who is funding it.

[wysiwyg]

Wysiwyg at our kinder those repeating get priority over everyone else, regardless of who is funding it.

Maybe it is different in different council areas but certainly in ours going forwards (has not been the case in the past), unless there was a documented reason (e.g. developmental delays, medical reasons etc) then you can't get a second year of funded 4 year old kinder, and places have to go to funded before self-funded. So if you have 20 places and 20 wanting funded four year old and 1 wanting self-funding to repeat, the 1 won't get it. (the question was specifically asked at the session - and the representatives from the council answered)

They said the one take away message was going forward you really need to plan ahead and think carefully about when you take your 3 and 4 year old kinder years if you think might not want to start school at the earliest opportunity.

[AnyDream]

Ok, I know things work differently in different states, but IMO there is a huge difference between preschool programs run in kindies/preschool and those run in long daycare centres. Does he attend a real preschool or just the daycare version? If it's just daycare, it might be worth getting him into a real kindy/preschool if you can.