"Privileged" Education

[Bathsheba]

Interesting post Divvy. DH has also participated in the "weeding out" process you describe... he actually wanted to hire a public schooled graduate at first... until he realised that... well, it wasn't going to work in THIS situation. However I'm sure that there are many situations where a public education might serve a child better... everything depends on the child... and yes, the parenting. There is no perfect school... only perfect MATCHES between school and child.

[thepixie]

Excellent post Div, but in some ways I disagree. I think that the weeding out process you describes represents a form of intellectual laziness commonly practised within the law and other fields like banking etc.
I agree that private education can be very worthwhile for those who value it, but using it to measure another person's worth (as in krisp's example) is lazy, and to my mind, stupid. And it seems there are some schools where even 50 years after you leave you are still a "XXXXX" boy. I think that's quite sad really. School can shape who you are, but to still be clinging to it decades after you leave is a bit sad and pathetic.
JMO of course.

[Jellyfish]

I will preface this by stating that forming a judgement based solely on education is not something I agree with or subscribe to BUT

I don't see a need to let go of your school entirely because you are no longer a student there. I guess this makes me sad and pathetic but I loved/love my school, I look back on those years fondly and I still return for events held there (recently went to make gingerbread houses). I will always be an Old Scholar of my high school, I can't exactly erase my past with time? And why would I want to, they were good memories and what is so wrong with continuing to participate in a community? My family holidayed at the same beach every year and I also love going back there to relive the good times! Or driving past old houses and thinking about being a kid there... is that also sad and pathetic?

Holding onto memories doesn't take away your ability to make new ones!

[Jennifer13]

Does the school you went to matter? That very much depends on whether or not you got a tertiary education and what field you're working in. If you want to own a TV company, then yes, you'll need the exclusive ties that will draw in multi-millions of dollars in investment from your fellow former students. Personally, I believe it's your tertiary qualifications and field of work/experience that give you more prestige. It seems odd to me that this only matters if you went to school in Sydney or Melbourne (and it seems to) and it mostly matters if you're male.

I can't speak for Div's field, but in the corporate world, being well-qualified, good looking (and well dressed), female and smart is a winner every time. It's almost as shallow, but true. Oh, and the suburb where you currently live is usually asked/noticed. The other thing is the working relationships and connections you make in your career. Knowing the right people is key, but not as many of them come from Sydney/Melbourne private schools as you'd think, because they're often older and sometimes from overseas.

Does private schooling afford you privileges that would otherwise not be open to you? I think privilege is mostly dependent on your family background and what you then go out and make of your life. Some ppl become very successful through luck, brains and hard work, some start out with not much going against them. How do you define 'privilege'? If it's being able to jet off to Italy for every holiday, live on the waterfront and not have enough room for all the 0s on your bank statement, then it's mostly family connections. If privilege is living well and not stressing about money (or much else), then it's luck, brains and hard work.

Does it play a role in your future eg job selection, lifestyle choices etc? Living where I do, I see a lot of privately-schooled women who have since applied their expensive education to SAHMotherhood. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by any stretch of the imagination, but if you believe that the private school education is set up to make them world-beaters, then you may be off the mark. A lot of private girls schools still seem to have the philosophy of preparing their 'girls' to become the lovely wives of important men. You could argue that definitely affects their lifestyle choice, given they aren't exactly living on the poverty line, but I hope for better than my DD to become someone's pretty plaything, who speaks nicely and knows all the right ppl. In some ways, their schooling has limited their life choices, because going against family wishes or trying something new out isn't as easy as you think.

I know some women who are drifting in their 30s because that perfect husband hasn't come along (or slipped through their fingers when they found someone younger and prettier) and because they didn't go to university they have no real qualification and no need/desire to earn a living and work their way up. No work, no family, no drive.

Does it shape the person/adult you become? I think personality and what values you instil in your children at home have a much bigger influence and schooling is taken by each child with the attitude you help instil. As someone else pointed out, a w@nker will always be a w@nker. Maybe because he got a good education, he's a better paid w@nker. But I think education needs to be considered in terms of the whole lot - including (and especially) tertiary. The w@nker with the good job certainly didn't stop at Yr 12. And there are plenty of Rhodes scholars who are from the public system.

And how do you classify someone whose run the whole gamut - public, private, regional university, sandstone university? Because I know plenty (and I'm almost one of them, bar the private bit) of women who've done all four. With varying degrees of success. Most of the really successful women I personally know (most in their late 30s, or beyond) actually came from regional areas, where posh private schools don't exist, are very smart and have worked extremely hard. But that's only in the corporate sphere, could be different elsewhere.

[Trillian]

I want to add too that I think if as parents, you want your children to have certain life experiences, then you will do whatever you can to provide them with that. For us, we are going to take the kids places and see things that they wouldn't necessarily see regardless of where they went to school. If you want them to have an overseas holiday to experience other cultures then you will do what you can to make that happen.

And another point on the school holding you back/giving you opportunity in the workforce, well at what point does the school you went to have no baring? I can understand using that methodology for selecting graduates, but is it still relevant when you are interviewing 45yo+ people for a job when they have at least 20 years industry experience in that job? If it does then it says more about the personal prejudices of the person doing the selecting than it does about the job in general.

[krisp]

This has brought up such a fascinating conversation.

How do we define success?

Is it having a career where you work 80 hours a week, designer clothes, a fabulous house, 2 nannies and oodles of cash? Is it being happy SAHM with 4 children, whose children enjoy pre-loved clothes, DH arrives home at 4.30 each day and they have a family meal together each night, attend weekend sport as a family together and have camping holidays twice a year?

To some the $300K job means success and fullfillment even though the 80+ hrs a week on the job means no family time. To some the SAHM mum making home made play dough and kissing scraped knees and hearing sleepy I love you's every night at bedtime means success and fullfillment.

What does "success and fullfillment" mean to you?

[Trillian]

That probably needs a whole thread of it's own LOL.

Its simple for me. It's whatever makes you happy. If having all the bells and whistles, the means to travel overseas each year and working those 80hours a week to get it makes you feel happy/successful/fulfilled, then it can't be a bad thing. But if that is what makes a person happy, then I'd be interested to know if their other half feels the same way, whether they can deal with hardly seeing their partner because they have all this other stuff or if the happiness is one sided kwim. Maybe that's why you see all these tree/sea changers now, because they aren't happy/fulfilled anymore?

[Bathsheba]

The kind of "success" I'm hoping for my children includes:

The ability to pursue a life in which you feel able to meet all the challenges put before you. If you feel connected to a community and have the drive to contribute and are ABLE to contribute in a manner that fits your skill set then I believe happiness will follow.

To this ends what DH and I want for our children via their formal education:

Relationships with teachers and students that are based on the values of respect, encouragement and community spirit. Teachers that acknowledge that they are co-learners too and not unquestionable over-layers of knowledge. A learning environment that supports each individual childs' level of development and incorporates their interests into the curriculum not a pre-destined education-board chosen one. Eg. At the start of term the children are consulted about topics that are of interest to THEM and then a program tailored in that direction. NOT: "Ok kids this term we are going to talk about dinosaurs!" Class sighs and gets on with it despite the fact that nearly all the kids are really into the urban farm animals they all saw over the holidays. (And this is not as hard as you would think... I have regularly witnessed classes of children have circle discussions about the Topic of the Term... MUCH easier than asking the BB community about their preferences on a forum change! LOL)

If you show a child the courtesy of allowing them to guide the direction of their own learning this really engages them in the learning process. DH and I want our children to simply LOVE learning new skills and building on the ones they have. We dread the day that they feel that they are just going through the motions to please the teacher like we did at school.

If you love learning, I believe, this is the first step toward success. Once you have that then: "The ability to pursue a life in which you feel able to meet all the challenges put before you. If you feel connected to a community and have the drive to contribute and are ABLE to contribute in a manner that fits your skill set then I believe happiness will follow."

ETA: I know that a child's family culture and the parenting it receives will influence future success. However a school's culture and the attitude the child develops toward formal learning does have a significant influence too. As good as a home life may be... if a school manages to discourage a child's innate desire to learn and engage with the school community then I think this will have a very detrimental effect of the child's future and potential for maximised happiness. This is why I also wanted to add that I tend to disagree with the popular belief that "primary schooling doesn't matter... public education will do... Secondary is more important, we'll probably send our child to a private high-school". I believe that a child's attitude to learning is developed in the Early Years. These are the precious years, the foundation stone. If DH and I couldn't afford to send our DD to both private primary and secondary I would have opted to send her to Private primary where she was able to go from Prep (Kinder in NSW) to grade 6 in classes of 15 girls and under.... and under the respectful learning environment I described above.

[fionas]

I should start by saying that I wish private education did not exist so that the dilemma of where to send my kids didn't exist. I can afford private education for both of them but highly resent the fact that being comfortably off means that DDs can access a better education than other kids.

I have limited experience of the private vs public education system in Aus because I grew up in the UK. It mattered A GREAT DEAL when I was growing up. I think the stats when I went to uni were something like 13% of UK kids went to private school yet made up 90% of the university population. In other words 87% of kids went to state schools yet made up only 10% of the uni population. I was 'lucky' enough to be one of the state school kids at university and coming from a state school it was a fairly uncomfortable experience. I think most of us felt out of place but then the UK is a class-based society so that's hardly surprising.

XH went to Xavier College which is one of Melbourne's most expensive private schools. They were all lovely and extremely welcoming of me. They were the nicest bunch of people I've ever met and this is from someone who, because of my background, would like to find fault with people from a private school.

So, did the 'choice' of school offer privileges/opportunities - when I was growing up in the UK, absolutely. It made it much more likely that you would go to university. Which in turn means a better job. I don't know what the stats are in Australia right now but I would think that there is still a disproportionate number of private school kids at uni compared to their state school counterparts - that's a huge factor in why kids are sent to private schools obviously. And if you have the marks to get into uni, then you have many more options than if you don't. The teaching at private schools is geared towards university entrance.

Does going to a private school affect what sort of person you become? Having mixed with both public and private school-educated people, I would have to say the overriding thing difference that strikes me is CONFIDENCE. Private school kids seem to be much more confident and that means they are more likely to be successful in the workplace.



XH would never ask what school someone went to. It was irrelevant to him. Infact, he said that he would prefer to employ someone from a state school as he thought they'd work harder.

[Bathsheba]

Nail on head Fiona! "Confidence" or you can call it "an ability to kick ar$e when necessary". Onyx and Divvy illustrate this well! Infact so many privately educated women i know have this enviable trait that timid ole me can only dream of! Thankfully my 15yo DD has received this too from her primary and secondary private education. I'm not saying that publicly educated people never have this... but just from personal experience it's not as common. And it's this trait that DH needed in his graduate assistant banker: the ability to hold ground if an arrogant CEO is trying to Lord it over them! From his experience the private kids can handle themselves pretty well... and not lose the client in the process!

I don't want to sound too "pro" private system though. Because just like Fiona I REALLY want to support the public system... I care about education... I aim to be a teacher... it's just that especially here in Victoria the public system (the most under-funded in Australia) is not a system I particularly admire compared to what I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford in the private system.

[krisp]

Interesting conversation about the "confidence" aspect private schooling provides.

Even though I didn't go to a private school I have always been a confident person. My Mum and Dad always told me I could do anything and be anything I wanted to be. I was encouraged to be vocal and express my opinion, to stand up for myself and also others.

I don't know that private schooling instills confidence. I think confidence comes from many different things. It can be part of the molding that your parents provide, it can come from being knocked down and finding the inner strength you need to get back up and get you through, it can be imparted on you by an influential teacher, priest, role model etc, it can come from being an elite athlete or just because that is how you were "made".

I believe confidence is about being sure of who you are and your place in the world.

[boomba]

Isn't that passing judgement of someone by where they went to school? And to not be hired for a job due to the school you went to is discrimination?
Personally I think you will succeed if you want to...yes a little help from a school is great but you could go to heaps of different schools and still have the same outcome if you don't want to learn? I know lots of people who went to the worst highschools and have amazing lives now?

People pass judgement on my DH all the time as he loves to wear boardies and thongs they talk down to him as he is dumb and treat him like dirt...but you know what he owns and runs a successful business and he went to a basic state high school, his success has come from within him self and his upbringing not from his school. This mentality really annoys me you are not better than someone else just because of the school you went to. People are wonderful in their own right not because of the school they went to?

[Bathsheba]

ONLY from my personal experience it seems that this confidence seems to come from the relationship between students and teachers. Now I'm walking on shaky ground here because I also know of quite a few public school teachers who seem to teach in a manner that imparts confidence with their students.... but it's almost always been in evidence with my daughters teachers at the private schools she has been to. I know that that the teachers all seemed to LOVE working at these schools... the class sizes were small (my DDs first teacher only had 10 girls, what teacher wouldn't be happy about that!)... the pay is better... the facilities and resources are better... happy teacher = happy kids?

On the flip side it's a different story at my DS's public school... he's had ok teachers but they seem to lack the spark... I don't like the one-size-fits-all approach... I really don't like their school reporting system! The grounds are grim and the rooms uncomfortable. The teachers talk to the kids in a way reminiscent to how I was spoken to at my public school... can't put my finger on it but it's different to how the teachers speak at the private ones... can someone help me out? Anyhow he's not returning next year. But we'll most likely try the public system again when we move... I REALLY do want to find something good to say about Australia's public system!

[Phteven]

I REALLY do want to find something good to say about Australia's public system!

I'm really happy with our local public school it's fantastic in so many ways.

[Shanti]

I think there are many great public schools and many great private schools. We as parents need to take alot of the responsibility for our kids and how they are learning too. Not just the schools.

We have a wonderful public school up the road from us and another co-ed private school up the other road near us where our DD could go. We are lucky we are in the position to be able to afford the private option if we choose to send DD there.....we will have to compare both schools and make up our mind based on what we feel is best for our DD at the time. ie school values, code of ethics etc etc

I think it's horrible that someone would judge someone based on where they went to school.

[angelaartsstudent]

My DD will be going public....well that's the decision we've made so far.

I have nothing major against private schooling, but she is not baptised/christened, so that makes it harder to get in over here. And the public primary school in our area is spoken of way more highly than the privates in the area.

Like above though, I like in an upper-middle class area now. If I was living in the suburb I did last year, there's no way I would send my kid to the local public school.

I went to 4 schools in grade 1. 3 were private, one was public.

1st - private - said I had learning problems and I was moved out bcuase we moved interstate
2nd - private - very deeply religious and ALL the kids still had to line up in the common area and march to class every morning - I was kicked out.
3rd - private - kicked out.
4th - public - I liked it. Suddenly my apparent 'learning problem' disapeared and I suddenly turned 'bright'.

Half way through Grade 3 we moved back to WA and I was put back in the original private school. On my first day back I was bullied and had the crap beaten out of me until the end of year 8. I was told that "You're not worthy, God doesn't want you" in Grade 3, becuase my family was Anglican, not Catholic. But that of course has nothing to do with it being a private school...more with it being in the country and populated by very old and old fashioned teachers.

Then my family moved to the City so my sis and I could get a "better education". I was landed at what is most likely still in the top 5 list of WORST schools in Perth (gangs, violence, major drug problem, kids getting killed from bashings etc). It's public. My sister got to go to a private school. I didn't get a choice.

I have since worked at the most expensive boy's school in the state, and also the cheapest boy's school in the state. Both are as bad as one another...just one costs parents $10000+ more a year than the other!

I am not sure if it matters whether a school is private or public....but the quality of the school does.

Let's just say that I would never send my kid to an exxy school just to look good...but especially not after working at them and seeing the inner workings of the place!

[HotI]

double post

[Junglemum]

I think the school you go to can definitely shape who you are. But i don't think it comes down to public v's private. I think it has more to do with the actual school. I went to a public primary and private secondary and my parents, like Divy's were paying off the school fees well after we finished.

Does the school you went to matter? i think so, yes.
Does private schooling afford you priviledges that would otherwise not be open to you?[/B] Absolutely. The school i went to had a big focus on general life skills as well as education. For an hour every day we would do an elective called 'activities'. Once ever 6 weeks you'd put a ballot in for what activity you wanted to do. It could be anything from cooking, tennis, scuba diving, pottery, sewing, chess, music, the options were endless. We also had two camps a year. One you got to chose the other was a general camp for the whole year level. On these camps we learnt orienterring, bush survival skills, rafting, horse rideing, rock climbing, abseiling just to name a few. For the elective one you could chose a school based camp and do a performing arts camp, sewing, lots of different sporting options, or you could go on a surfing, scuba diving, horse riding, or a city experience or central Aus type trip. You don't get those opportunities at very many schools.
Does it play a role in your future eg job selection, lifestyle choices etc? I think it is not the be all and end all, but it definitely plays a role. I went to a private school who were actually concerned about their students and not worried about keeping their grade averages high. So no one was asked to leave if they were making the school look bad. This happened at several local private schools in our area. I find it shocking. We were encouraged to be what we wanted to be, not pushed into something that didn't suit us. My schooling has definitely contributed to the person i am today.
Does it shape the person/adult you become? There are so many contributing factors, but i say yes, schooling is one of them. MY parents are the primary 'shapers' but peers, and experiences contribute too. Schooling is an experience.

I would like to send my kids to a school like the one i went to. My Dad thinks it was a waste of money, mainly due to my poor grammar and spelling skills. But English was never my strong point, i have many others.