In praise of the C-Section

I've been tossing over my thoughts over our recent Caesar. I found this article whilst searching for another. Putting it here so I don't get into strife elsewhere!

I though it was a good article....
http://www.babble.com.au/2009/12/21/bad-parent-in-praise-of-the-c-section/

In Praise of the C-Section

I’m not sorry I didn’t have a natural birth.
by Tova Mirvis

December 21, 2009

There’s been a lot of talk lately on Babble – as well in the office – about whether there’s anything such as ‘choice’ in the whole business of childbirth. And, if there is, would you choose a so-called ‘natural’ delivery (no drugs, no epidural, no ‘medical’ intervention whatsoever) or a caesarean? The C-section is traditionally thought of as the inferior method of delivery – or, worse, the lazy cheat’s easy way out. But this post – and the brilliant comments that follow it (originally published on Babble in April this year), gives us the other side of the story. So much so, in fact, we decided to re-publish it. Please feel free to add your comments – we love hearing from you, especially on these controversial topics.

When I was pregnant with my third child, I accidentally wandered into a conversation in which two mothers I’d recently met were extolling the virtues of homebirths and water births, midwives and doulas. When the well-meaning mums asked about my birth plan, I told them I was having a scheduled C-section. Their faces conveyed self-righteous disapproval and my mind was immediately awhirl in disclaimers: I was having the scheduled C not because I wanted the convenience, not because I was afraid of labour, not because I didn’t want to miss my manicure appointment.

“My oldest son would have died if I didn’t have a C-section!” I said instead.
It was unfair to pull the “my kid almost died” trump card, and if I hadn’t skulked off in annoyance and then embarrassment at having reacted so defensively, I could have told them about my first pregnancy and the months of bleeding, followed by the morning at thirty-two weeks in which there was no kicking; then the hours on the monitors where the heart rate was at first fine, then shockingly not fine, which provoked the careening stretcher; the epidural which didn’t have time to take effect, so instead the general anesthesia and the intubation. It was birth as highly medicalised and impersonal as critics of the C-section claim, one in which I had no voice and no control.

I also could have admitted that I’ve occasionally felt a twinge of loss that I’ll never give birth more naturally. Having never experienced labour, I sometimes feel like a little girl eavesdropping on the grown-ups’ tales of childbirth. I pore over pictures my husband took during one of my C-sections, to convince myself that this was my body, my baby. When I watched a friend’s video of her home birth — in water, no less — I felt as I do when watching Olympic figure skaters: as much as I would love to do that, it’s never going to happen.

But that loss is nowhere near what I would have felt had all those highly-interventionist, medical-establishment doctors not been exactly where I needed them. After a month in the NICU, when we were finally ready to take our son home, the resident who’d been on call the night of my C-section told us how blue our baby was. He held his fingers imperceptibly apart and told us we’d come “this close.”
Those words followed me for the four years in which I worked up the courage to get pregnant again. I went back to the same OB, who warned me I would be closely monitored. But this pregnancy was so uneventful that by my third trimester, my doctor raised the possibility of a VBAC. I was aware of the spate of newspaper articles decrying the increased rate of C-sections and moved by a relative’s joy at having a VBAC. Mostly I was tempted by the opportunity to prove to myself that I could do it. My mother used to tell me about her paternalistic male OB who, in the days of twilight medication and fathers in the waiting room, had instructed her to “lie back, sweetheart, you don’t have to do a thing,” to which I’d always rolled my eyes, confident of my physical capabilities and glad for all that had changed in the world.

If I’d tried, and all went well, perhaps this would be an essay in praise of VBAC. But that of course would only be evident in hindsight, when the result of the birth was cradled in my arms. Not yet having crossed over to that safe other side, what my prior experience taught me most starkly was that birth was not a process that I could control. The incision scar fades after a year or two, but the scars of near-tragedy are etched more permanently, making it hard to care about the experience, rather than the result, of birth.

My scars also make it hard not to hear a tone of triumphalism on the part of some who are lucky (because that, after all, is what it is) enough to have the birth of their dreams. Or to hear narcissism at the wishful fantasy that it is simply a matter of “trusting my body,” or to hear folly at the idea that what matters most in a birth is your own experience of it. Surely the current obsession with the process of birth comes in response to the many years in which women were told to lie back and do nothing, yet it reminds me of the bride fixated on the wedding, not the marriage, the bride bedecked with a breathtaking array of flowers, as if the abundant beauty can serve as a talisman against the harsher realities that lie ahead.

For me, the question of VBAC was easily decided when at thirty-seven weeks, my doctor saw a heart rate deceleration. While this wasn’t necessarily cause for alarm, she wanted to do a C-section that evening. Was this the much-maligned elective C, which I was choosing because I was distrustful of my body? Was this the voice of the medical establishment, belittling my capabilities, trampling my rights? Was this an example of a doctor rushing to surgery, for fear of malpractice? What I heard was the voice of my doctor, wise, capable and kind, who had saved the life of my first child. My desire for a certain experience, my image of who I thought I was or wanted to be, mattered least of all.

During my third pregnancy, with a different OB in a different city, there wasn’t a conversation about VBAC. November 26, 8 a.m., was penciled in on our calendars, though given a variety of complications, it seemed unlikely I’d go to term. But the weeks passed and the baby grew, until the date loomed before me, and I remembered more viscerally the physical pain of my previous C-sections. When I told my doctor how afraid I was, his nurse happened to repeat the same sentiment my mother once heard. “Lie back, he’ll take care of everything.”

Beautiful words, those were. Because a C-section is a scary thing in which I was glad to take no active role. Even when it’s planned, it doesn’t necessarily go according to plan. This time, I knew the date so far in advance that I made sure to complete a major project beforehand; the night before, I packed a few days’ worth of school lunches and laid out my kids’ clothes. Most of all, I concentrated on not letting my mind wander to the netherworld of all that could go wrong. Yet no matter how much I’d prepared myself, I still felt terror at being wheeled into that operating room. Despite the fact that I’d had every test and an inordinate number of sonograms, the moment my baby was lifted out was unexpectedly fraught with worry as the neontalogist present was concerned about a possible malformation. While my baby was examined across the room, I had to wait helpless and terrified until I was told she was going to be fine.

Was it the birth of my dreams? Hardly. Do I wish it could have been different? Sure. But compared with the result — my daughter, Liana, little sister to my sons Eitan and Daniel — I really don’t care. If I’ve learned anything in ten years of motherhood, it’s that the way our children are brought into the world means very little for how they live in the world. Nor do the intense hours in which we become mothers shape the months, years and decades of our actually being mothers. And if the experience of childbirth is in fact a crucial process, then let it be the process of teaching us that our children will emerge in ways varied and complicated, not necessarily in times or manners of our choosing, neither made in our image nor as proof of our prowess. Let birth remind us that, with children, so little goes according to even the most well-drawn plan.

Yay to presenting some balanced info...We all need to hear positives and negatives about natural birth and c-sections. There are some real positives about c-sections and there are some negatives about natural births however this info is rarely heard.

Thankyou Streacher Bearer, great to finally see a meaningful outlook on CS.

Just what I needed at the moment, while contemplating going back for a second, after a traumatic emergency Ceasar feeling like a failure.

:clap::clap::clap:

Wow such an interesting read and good on her for having the courage to right the article.

Thanks for posting that.

Interesting read, and good for her that she "really doesnt care" .
Wish I didnt. but then again no, I dont.
Yes, I have my son, who is perfectly healthy, end result is what its all about, I hear some say alot.
What irks me is that MY experience was an un-neccesarian, cascade of intervention that I failed to speak out about, resulting in my feeling rather numb about the whole experience.
I know you probably dont want to hear all my crap, I dont really care right now, I am hearing and reading so much on this "a natural parenting site" about how great c sections are, well, if yours was, great.
mine, and quite a few others werent. deal with it, we only have our own experiences to go by.
I dont know what my point is.:wall:

I haven't been hearing how great Caesarians are on this site Starrrsky, I get more of an impression that if you can avoid them you do. I don't hear anyone singing their praises and that worries me as much as your apparent negative experience.

I can't think of what to say to your comments to have anything sort of positive for you.

My highlighting this article was for those who have to wear their experience as some sort of substandard medal because of the overwhelming view of others from various standpoints. That they don't have to have their birth "graded" because of what they didn't experience.

I know this place can be supportive for many, and I'm sure talking amongst some here might be useful but if things really bite at you like they appear to then seek someone who can help, with enough insight into experiences like yours.

Even with what you have gone through, I don't think you deserve any of your pain.

What a great article. Thanks for posting :)

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I haven't been hearing how great Caesarians are on this site Starrrsky, I get more of an impression that if you can avoid them you do. I don't hear anyone singing their praises and that worries me as much as your apparent negative experience.

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Nobody is denying that cesarians save the lives of both mothers and babies. If the impression you get from BellyBelly is avoidance at all cost then that is the wrong one. Informed choice of the risk both for and against in all facets or birth and parenting choices is the essence of BellyBelly. Information is power and all that ;)

I think it means then just as the expecation to be sensitive to many of the "streams" or subject areas in this forum then Caesar mums and families need the same.

Sometimes those that need congratulations and or support can get lost amongst it all!

That is what the cesarian support section is for. Perhaps you missed it?


Caesarean Section Support - Pregnancy, Birth & Baby Forums ~ BellyBelly

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My highlighting this article was for those who have to wear their experience as some sort of substandard medal because of the overwhelming view of others from various standpoints. That they don't have to have their birth "graded" because of what they didn't experience.

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Dude, you are the next PM of this country. Love your work. :clap:

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That is what the Cesarean support section is for. Perhaps you missed it?


Cesarean Section Support - Pregnancy, Birth & Baby Forums ~ BellyBelly

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Thanks Raven, I hadn't missed it. Only meaning to say sometimes I just get a perception that goals like VBACs overshadow Caesars-only my perception of course, or that the notion of informed decision making could be perceived as a nice way of swaying women away from Caesars.
I'll spend however, after your reminder, a bit more time reading the Caesarean section posts. Ta

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I haven't been hearing how great Caesarians are on this site Starrrsky, I get more of an impression that if you can avoid them you do.

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Indeed, Stretcher Bearer. And, IMHO, that is the right impression to have. There is no doubt in my mind that caesarean section saves the lives of our partners and babies. But it is a lot riskier than a natural birth, and for that reason, it should be reserved for when that increased risk is warranted.

There should be no shame in having a caesarean section. There might be some disappointment, and I think that is natural when anything in life doesn't go according to plan. There might even be some anger, especially when on reflection, we come to understand that if we or our partners had been given different options then their caesarean section might not have been necessary. And I have no doubt that some people are elated, and secure in the knowledge that the surgery was life saving for their partner or their child. But there should never be any shame in having a caesarean section, and no one here on BB would condone that.

In summary: caesareans are life-saving, but risky. They should be an option for any woman who needs one, but if you can avoid them, you should. Pretty much what Stretcher Bearer said.

That's a great idea SB - you will find lots of support in that thread for your choice to have a c/section in that thread. I guess the goal to vbac is not so for every woman. Among women who choose a VBAC it is often due to the desire to have the experience of a natural birth. Which in many women is something very important. Birthing a baby can be if it is chosen to be a very spiritual & important initiation... Or it can just be seen as a way to get the baby out. It will depend on how you feel & it can be many shades in between.

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Birthing a baby can be if it is chosen to be a very spiritual & important initiation... Or it can just be seen as a way to get the baby out. It will depend on how you feel & it can be many shades in between.

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:clap: Well said

I think we often interpret other people's birth experiences & choices through our own birthing experience, to a point of not seeing that all experiences and choices are valid. I've read a lot lately about how the experience pales in comparison to the result, and in the scheme of things, of course it does, but that doesn't mean that the experience is not important or significant, and that a birthing woman's needs, desires and choices shouldn't be respected.

It's a great article.

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I haven't been hearing how great Caesarians are on this site Starrrsky, I get more of an impression that if you can avoid them you do. I don't hear anyone singing their praises and that worries me as much as your apparent negative experience.

I can't think of what to say to your comments to have anything sort of positive for you.

My highlighting this article was for those who have to wear their experience as some sort of substandard medal because of the overwhelming view of others from various standpoints. That they don't have to have their birth "graded" because of what they didn't experience.

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I don't think it's a question of whether they are great or not, or wearing a substandard medal.... for some the experience can be viewed as lifesaving, necessary & viewed with gratitude for the outcome. For others there is disappointment and sadness, especially if it is felt that the CS was the result of unnecessary interventions.

If I had been in the position of the woman writing this article I would quite possible have chosen a repeat CS rather than a VBAC also.

A choice to VBAC and a choice to CS are both individual decisions based on so many different factors...who is to say what is valid for another woman / couple/
I think it is very sad that anyone would feel like they would have their birth 'graded' because of the birth experience they had.

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I think we often interpret other people's birth experiences & choices through our own birthing experience, to a point of not seeing that all experiences and choices are valid. I've read a lot lately about how the experience pales in comparison to the result, and in the scheme of things, of course it does, but that doesn't mean that the experience is not important or significant, and that a birthing woman's needs, desires and choices shouldn't be respected.

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Skeetaboat, I've got to spread the love but that's exactly what I was thinking when I read the article.

I think every parent's opinion about different birth choices is valid (when based on their own direct experience). Just as every woman's risk level for vaginal vs c-section is slightly different (and can change during labour). Overall, c-sections are riskier for most, especially repeat c-sections but sometimes the risk is around the other way too. There are risks with epidurals and these are often part of a vaginal birth too.

Y'know, it really is in all in our perception. My reading of the disappointing & traumatic birth stories section of BB sees equal numbers of women posting about vaginal vs c-section births. Or if not equal, at least very close. I am someone who had a terrible c-section experience, made worse by the later realisation that it was probably unnecesary. I try to console myself by remembering that even if I'd given birth vaginally, I might still have had a rotten experience (although for different potential reasons).

One final thing, I want to :clap: the author for genuinely 'not caring'. I wish I could achieve the same but I suspect I will go to my grave 'caring' (and that has nothing to do with what anyone else says about c-sections, it's about my personality, what I believe and what I experienced).

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I haven't been hearing how great Caesarians are on this site Starrrsky, I get more of an impression that if you can avoid them you do. I don't hear anyone singing their praises and that worries me as much as your apparent negative experience.

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There are an abundance of sites out there if you're after that sort of thing, why would I want to be another one of those in the crowd, especially when I have access to more information and knowledge - I don't treat this just as a business as many others, used for marketing gain, owned by Fairfax, J&J etc. I run this with the passion and extra knowledge I have on the topic. BellyBelly's approach is that of information is power and health and safety is important too - it would be irresponsible for me to encourage something more dangerous and risky. I hear stories from midwives all the time - women arresting on the table, golden staph in c/s wounds resulting in hysterectomy, Alan posted a shocking story about that in a QLD hospital - and we're talking healthy normal women who thought they'd go along with friend's suggestions of it being easier and no big deal. Tell that to the woman who lost her uterus or worse...

As some of the others have said, it's a life saving thing, I also see it appropriate where the mother may choose it for psychological reasons, e.g. previous stillbirth. But I will never sing it's praises, it was designed as an emergency procedure, it is major surgery and carries risks especially in this time of rampant infections. So I will never attempt to make it a mainstream choice by encouraging it.

BellyBelly is different to many sites as it provides information the others don't. We've never judged anyone for their choice here, we give confronting information but there is nothing wrong with confronting yourself as a person going through this journey - it is an opportunity for personal growth and reflection especially given it's based on facts given. Doesn't that help you to make a better decision for yourself, when you're thinking extra hard at your decisions or choices? What if you realise something really important? Maybe you might not, but either way, you will likely be more sure of what you want, no matter what you choose.

This is the way BB is, this is the way it will always be. If we can inform about the risks about caesareans, then hopefully we can help women avoid that first c/s - which all too commonly results in further caesareans, or hard work to be 'allowed' to have a VBAC. Because like it or not, women may not think so right away, but they often start having thoughts that they would like to experience a normal birth, a VBAC, and doing so can be very healing. Some will choose not to and that's fine also. But I think the majority want to know how they can do what they want, as safe as possible.

A woman will carry her birth experience to the grave, and many women - more than ever - are feeling traumatised and a sense of loss with their birth experience. So something tells me, women are wanting and needing more information to help them prevent all this. Who wouldn't, I don't know very many women at all (note: any) who are genuinely enthusiastic and feeling safe about an elective caesar for their first birth. I am sure there are some out there but they don't make up the majority who want to birth as their bodies were designed to.

As you will see in the birth debrief/trauma thread, I posted an article from caesarean.co.uk talking about how women cope emotionally after c/s.... the first reaction being them needing to believe it was absolutely necessary in order to actually cope before they even begin to dissect it. Yes for a small percent it will be needed. But there are ALOT of disappointed women out there who feel cheated and rightly so. Their Obs aren't giving them the right info. The hospital system is not giving them the support... so the only way these days women can have a supported and loving birth is to feel educated (properly not just bits here and there - I think many women think they are but need more/better information) and they need to get their own support sadly. They expect continuous care and don't get it, they are often left to their own devices and feeling unsafe and scared results in interventions. Those few of my clients who have had c/s, dealt with it much better knowing they had great support even after the birth and they knew all avenues had been exhausted - they knew I was on their side and suggested everything I knew to help prevent the situation. But they found peace knowing we tried everything.

Why should women shut up and take what they get in the terrible maternity system and say that the experience doesn't matter when you have the rest of their lives to make it better? The fact that we have one of the highest c/s rates in the world says it all - we're failing women dismally and these c/s don't all need to be happening, nor do women need to be suffering. I appreciate what the article is trying to say/do, but this will not change the philosophy of BB. For those who prefer to be in their comfort zone, then there are so many other places they can go. But for those who want to be informed, educated and experience growth and personal confrontation, BB is the place for them. And with close to 20,000 forum members now, myself and the mod team must be doing *something* right.

Thanks Kelly!

Thanks Kelly for derailing my thread.

That reply was in response to another's post describing her own negative feelings/ outcomes/outlook towards CS. To which I received thanks for.

Presenting a balanced view IS about hearing from those who sing the praises of CS. In doing so it's not glorifying it as an easy birth choice but showing balance.

War stories from health professionals have kept many a professional in business and filled many tea room. I can give you many a home birth tragedy. I can describe enough post partum traumas too. My won mother birthed as nature intended. She now has had her hysterectomy, and had multiple surgeries to repair the damage and incontinence that birthing naturally caused. (and no it wasn't the hyster) That is just point scoring describing things like that. I'm more than aware of MRSA and any patient in hospital can contract it, not just surgical ones. If you swabbed most hospital care givers you would probably find it there. So it's not contained to CS surgery.

I think after 20 years as a nurse, 15 as a Critical Care RN and nearly 13 as a paramedic, I know the complexities of major abdominal surgery as CS is accompanied by the risk of spinal analgesia. Especially when Christmas Eve we saw the drop in my partners blood pressure during her CS from a rising block.

Our CS wasn't an emergency but it needed to happen. A breech baby, and AFI of 4 and GDM on insulin. We moved from the Family Birthing Centre because if this. We saw countless doctors, we discussed it amongst midwives looking after and assessing us. You can't safely turn a baby in this situation without putting him at risk. EVERYONE supported what was happening-even the FBC nurses. Nothing was forced upon us- it was a completely open decision from a caring and considerate Tertiary teaching hospital OB team.

We weren't afraid (there's one) but were apprehensive and cautious about any surgery. However we informed ourselves- from all angles, so that we were prepared.

Yep a natural vaginal birth would have been wonderful for us both and we were looking forward to it all. however circumstances changed and we chose the path most healthy for out beautiful baby and my amazing partner- because I wanted the both here., SO the arrival of our perfect baby DID justify he means and we are no worse off because of it. That is why I detest those who slag off CS because despite your best laid intentions some of it rubs of on these groups of women and leaves them feeling like they don't deserve to. Tell me why a woman/ mother should feel bad because of her interpretations of your opinion on CS? Yes you can't make people feel anything,but if you are going to provide the forum for information you must acknowledge the alternative outcomes for peoples emotions.

You speak of friends "telling them" which choice to make; in some ways this is what a web forum does inadvertently by it's very nature. the flavour of a site can guide emotions and beliefs, the loudest, most passionate and articulate can have long lasting effects on others.

Sometimes you can push a cart so hard that you run a few people over in the end.

I have never discounted thee feelings emotions and beliefs of those women who's CS has created negative, sad or emotional and psychological outcomes. It's saddening that circumstances whatever they are including unnecessary CS forced upon them, have occurred. It's great that many can come here to talk about it. I would still suggest though that on a web forum is not the best for your emotional and mental health and so I will always suggest professional help ahead of armchair experts (myself included)

No one is trying to change the "philosophy" of BB. That is not my intention. If a balanced view is what you are on about then that article fits right in. the fact that some of those 20000 actually approved and thanked me for posting it, so I haven't failed everyone here.

It's also has nothing to do about comfort zones or blunting people from the truth it's about balance. You have posted a PDF file "All you need to know about CS", well whilst I though it was very informative and I'm sure it will help many, it really is "Why CS isn't for you". That subtlety is what disappoints me form those trying to sway women away from unecessary CS- just come and say it.

I appreciate the positive outcomes for your clients. I'm happy for them; I don't agree that you provide them with advice as opposed to information and information sources but if that has led them to happy informed birth choices then good on you. Whilst there are a lot of women that are or may be disappointed with their CS there are enough that aren't I'm sure.

As I said to other posters with opinions different to mine, I will read more in the CS threads and so will my partner to inform myself even more, and that left us both with a happy contribution to this thread. I have no agenda, just an outlook that is different to yours. I think last time I looked that is my right an informed individual.

Sorry to have compromise the site.

I have a problem with the line about people who are against c-sections...I don't know a soul who is against them. I DO count myself amongst the number against medicalisation of normal birth. I think the distinction is lost on those dealing with the interruption to hormonal processes, in a bid to make sense of what's happened.
Clearly, the writer's situation was NOT a normal birth and that's EXACTLY what medicalisation is there for!
SB - you post a thread on ANY forum on the internet, be prepared for discussion that meanders and takes detours ;)

Derailed as it may be, the site's attitudes were brought into it ;) I too have thanks and comments for my post.

No-one compromises the site... they add another experience and individual thoughts into any discussion. It's not what's said but how people take it that makes all the mess. Yes some things may not be as thoughtful as could be... we try to keep tabs on that. But we also have to take responsibility over ourselves as adults to calm ourselves down and manage it. You'll get worse in real life - people will outright offend you and say things like - Oh so you had the cheats way out? Or think you're a hero for no drugs eh? Stupid things like that people tell us all the time. That does not and will not happen here - real life is much worse but we react so differently.

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Yep a natural vaginal birth would have been wonderful for us both and we were looking forward to it all. however circumstances changed and we chose the path most healthy for out beautiful baby and my amazing partner- because I wanted the both here., SO the arrival of our perfect baby DID justify he means and we are no worse off because of it. That is why I detest those who slag off CS because despite your best laid intentions some of it rubs of on these groups of women and leaves them feeling like they don't deserve to.

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Mate, are you serious? Find me one example on this site of someone "slagging off" another person because they had a caesarean section. We have a whole section of the site dedicated to caesarean section support.

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You speak of friends "telling them" which choice to make; in some ways this is what a web forum does inadvertently by it's very nature. the flavour of a site can guide emotions and beliefs, the loudest, most passionate and articulate can have long lasting effects on others.

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Yes, this is true. Welcome to Belly Belly. This is a parenting and pregnancy website that started life as a natural/gentle parenting forum. It is run by a doula, counts a number of lactation consultants, indpendent midwives, doulas, and various other health professionals amongst it's moderators and most senior members. We all share a similar philosophy. You are welcome here, but you need to understand that if you post an opinion that is contrary to what the majority of the people on this site believe, we will probably disagree with you, or at least feel free to post about our own beliefs or opinions.

If you feel that this site is not the right kind of site for you, then you are welcome to explore other sites out there that cater more to your philosophies. But you shouldn't feel pushed away just because your partner had a caesarean section.

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Sometimes you can push a cart so hard that you run a few people over in the end.

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As I pointed out above, no one on this site denigrates anyone based on their birthing choices. We aim to inform, to educate, and to support. If you as a result of that you are feeling judged over your choice or circumstances, then perhaps you should do some soul-searching; it occurs to me that you might still have some unresolved feelings about your birth experience that you need to work through that are colouring your interpretation of our words or actions.

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Sorry to have compromise the site.

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And I'm sorry you feel so confronted by others here who have different beliefs to your own. I hope that is something you can resolve.

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We have a whole section of the site dedicated to caesarean section support.

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I think I acknowledged that in a previous post.

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You are welcome here, but you need to understand that if you post an opinion that is contrary to what the majority of the people on this site believe, we will probably disagree with you, or at least feel free to post about our own beliefs or opinions.

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Speak for yourself. Others contacted me and said that they approved on my contribution including my reply to Kelly. I'm disappointed that somehow unless you agree you are open for ridicule.

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As I pointed out above, no one on this site denigrates anyone based on their birthing choices. We aim to inform, to educate, and to support. If you as a result of that you are feeling judged over your choice or circumstances, then perhaps you should do some soul-searching; it occurs to me that you might still have some unresolved feelings about your birth experience that you need to work through that are colouring your interpretation of our words or actions.

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You do not have to actively or directly denigrate someone to have an effect on them. My post and the article came from the notion not everyone has to feel bad about their birth experiences even if some of their choice is removed. Opinions can be like propaganda-very hurtful if taken the wrong way. Why do you think the women in the article wrote it?

I have no unresolved feelings about our experience- it was amazing and under the circumstances and given the clinical need of my partner and child, I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't need any 'experts' to analyse my or my partners emotions.

Perhaps if I am allegedly taking things this way then why do you guys have a look at what you are doing. Perhaps the way your philosophies are presented could be look at in other ways. Of course it is easier to blame me as the apparent sh** stirrer.

I don't feel judged one iota, certainly I am not going to lose sleep on the comments of a web forum.

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If you feel that this site is not the right kind of site for you, then you are welcome to explore other sites out there that cater more to your philosophies.

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There aren't any philosophies to cater for except unbiasedness. I have learnt a lot from this site and will continue to do so. It saddens me that some how it appears that you only want a site where the opinions tow the line especially on controversial subjects.

My thread was started to inform others. My comments to another member were to help her which they did. Why should I be chastised for that? Don't agree with what I post then fine. Lets talk about it.

I don't feel confronted by opinion, I just believe in fairness.

I'm leaving this thread be now so if anyone else wants a crack then PM me so as not to waste anyone else's time.

and I do apologise sincerly if I have offended anyone or their opinion.

Just wanted to say :clap: Streatcher Bearer.

I agree with you whole heartedly, about the article, about what you have posted here, about your responses. I wish I was as eloquent as you but whenever I try to explain myself on here I cant and get shut down by negative comments. :(

I experienced a true emergency c-s and although I KNOW it was necessary to save my daughter, I am always reminded of what I missed out on. It is comments such as "Initiation" (and I realise that you were just trying to make a point) that make me feel this way, that although I'm a member of BB and a mother, I'm not really a full member of the club. In my mind I know my birth was by necessity but I sometimes doubt and I truely think it's because of such strong opinions about c-sections and medical procedures in birth expressed by some people on here.

Ah I'm sure I'm going to be shot down here: I really do feel a lot of my birth trauma and dissapointment was because of the importance placed on non medical birth in everything that I had read on BB in the months leading up to it. I was so keen on a natural birth and really not prepared for the situation of NOT being able to have a choice (other than to let my baby die trying). I just hadnt read anything positive about C-s and that made it seem negative. Perhaps I had just not read the right posts. Perhaps I'm jsut being overly sensitive and defensive. Either way, I think it's great to see this thread and the other side of the coin re c-s. I really feel it does "balance" opinions more.

Thanks in advance for not posting harsh responses ;)

SB, I had no problem with the post. And I think like many others who posted after, it was the implication of BB's approach towards c/s women that prompted such responses. I read the first post when it was initially posted, and thought that's nice of her to express her feelings etc... it wasn't until further posts were made that I (and I am pretty sure others) felt they wanted to post. Even the posts we have made, again are not slagging off c/s. We're all reiterating our support of women's choice and while I want to say we'd never make a woman feel bad for her choices, I hesitate in that no-one can make anyone feel anything. We all generate our own feelings and emotions based on our own experiences, thoughts and beliefs. So only those feeling alienated have the power to feel alienated or not. Those feeling guilty can choose to feel guilty or not. You choose if you let something bother you or not. Not saying you are doing this, but in life, you can't go on a hunt for someone to blame for your feelings.... it wont get you anywhere because you own your feelings.

Have you had a look at the link in my sig yet? I think there's much appropriate info in there.

:hug: Sazz, I promise you, if you feel anyone is harsh or judging you, that's what the report button is for. I can imagine there are difficult moments for anyone who has had a cesarean section when we are a pro gentle/natural parenting, pro informed choice site, but rest assured the mod team honestly does our best job to try and proved a balance. It is difficult to promote the viewpoint that BellyBelly endorses as well as make sure that all members feel comfortable and valuable, but I promise we try our best. xo

Kelly,

I've hit the Byron page when you first posted it. Thanks.:thumbsup:

I am sorry Sassafrass that my opinion that birth is an initiation if it is chosen to be is hurtful to you. :hug: I will standby that comment - that I believe we need to bring birth rites back. That we need to honour the spirituality of birth. For that is my truth. It is not said to hurt you - & I am sure that anyone who holds a similar philosophy does so not to upset other Women. Again... :hug:

I had a c/section to save my life. I love c/sections! Without it I wouldn't be here & my daughter would be a statistic also... I tried to make it the best I could given the dire circumstances. Obviously birthing her naturally wasn't an option. I didn't feel like I gave birth. I felt like I had an operation. I felt like I had a procedure that saved my life and that of my child. I am grateful in every cell of my body for the wonderful surgeons, anethetists, physicians, nurses, paeds etc that were there that day. But whoa it left me empty, wierd & confused for some time. I (& their father) were the only ones to touch my other new borns (apart from DD1) so the gloved hands of a surgeon inside my gut was just bizarre. No pain to signal my labour. No nothing. Just a spinal and the grim faces of a team... Stainless steel - no birthing pool, no oils, I did manage my mood music and I did manage dimmed lights just for a time...

I have had a c/section and it hurt my heart. It saved my life and that of my child. However, my body didn't birth and that did and still remains this odd and bizarre feeling. (for me)...

I think if you choose annoyance or hurt when hearing someone's story that is a responsibility that lies with the reader.

Nobody tells their story to stick it to another. They tell their story as that's what women do. We tell our stories, share our joys and pain. It's not about spite or comeuppance. It can't be helpful to take things from that perspective.

This site is about education and information. So that those who choose a c/sexction to so from an educated place. For there is much misinformation. There is very little continuity of care. There is a lack of sacredness around birth. I think we need to bring it back... :hug:

At the end of that day I was alive - and my daughter was. How can I not love c/sections?

It's just that c/section is major abdominal surgery and it is *often* chosen out of fear. It is chosen sometimes due to a lack of information & education on the part of the client. It is chosen sometimes due to birth being made a medical event instead of a "birth rite" that it is.

That is what you will hear on this site. You will hear information & education. You will hear opinions.

I think it's sad that I cannot state my feelings, opinions and experiences without being accused of pushing a barrow...

I think its sad that we have to push the thoughts and beliefs about the very nature of birthing underground in case those that had a c/section are upset.

Duh *slaps forehead* now I remember.... we exchanged disgust at the workshop fees!!

SB - It sounds like you are quite at peace with your partner's birth experience - so why are you letting yourself get upset by what other people think of and say about cesareans? Whatever any one person thinks about a particular topic is just an idea among many ideas, shaped by their experiences. It's up to you if you pick up any particular idea and use it, or toss it away.

We often talk about cesareans as if they're all the same event, but they're not. Every c-section is as different to another as the mothers on which they are performed are to each other. They can be a nightmare for some, a welcome relief for others, and a life-saver for yet others still, plus everything in between. It is you guys who need to be at ease with your birth experience, and no one else. Negativity towards c-sections is primarily caused by bad experiences with them. That point of view is just as valid as your point of view. Neither is 'right', and neither is 'wrong', they're just different.

FWIW I'll put my hand up and say, thank GOD for c-sections. I can see what you're saying about c-sections - there is an air about that they are to be avoided at all costs; that they are bad; that they are an assault on women & the institution of birth; etc. And I can see how that sentiment, particularly because it is so prevalent, can be internalised by some women. Women who *do* actually end up feeling bad about their cesarean, or as though they've taken the inferior option, or that their body somehow 'failed' or that their carers somehow 'failed', etc etc, because that's what they keep reading and hearing and so think that's what they are 'supposed' to feel. And we know that what we think = what we feel.

But I can also see that in this cesarean-happy maternity system, upset, traumatised and angry is exactly how so many women *do* feel about their cesarean experience, which is why there is such a strong sentiment against the big bad C in the first place.

What we're doing now, discussing, sharing, thinking, reflecting, is all part of the birthing process. We just have to be careful of: a) owning our own experience and not projecting our own experiences onto others, and b) displacing connection and understanding and peace with our own experiences with the experiences, thoughts and feelings others'. I think in general we need to be cautious of mob mentality. Just because an idea is popular or shared or common, does not make it some kind of 'universal truth'. You don't have to feel bad about your experience just because others feel bad about their similar (but in reality very different) experience.

I'm glad that the article you posted resonated with your own truth and helped you connect with it. I'm sure it will do the same for many others.

ETA: Sazzafraz, you must have posted while I as typing. I think your experience is a perfect demonstration of what I'm trying to say - you internalised the anti-cesarean sentiment which then contributed to your cesarean experience being a bad one, in part because of your pre-concieved ideas, contructed by the information and stories you had read prior. Does that sound right?

Skeeta,

Thanks for a very sensible and holistic post.

skeetaboat - I understand what you're saying here and I agree with much of your post, especially that all c-sections are different and that discussing the range of responses and experiences parents have of c-sections is useful and part of the birthing process. I do disagree with these paragraphs though.

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there is an air about that they are to be avoided at all costs; that they are bad; that they are an assault on women & the institution of birth; etc. And I can see how that sentiment, particularly because it is so prevalent, can be internalised by some women. Women who *do* actually end up feeling bad about their cesarean, or as though they've taken the inferior option, or that their body somehow 'failed' or that their carers somehow 'failed', etc etc, because that's what they keep reading and hearing and so think that's what they are 'supposed' to feel. And we know that what we think = what we feel.


ETA: Sazzafraz, you must have posted while I as typing. I think your experience is a perfect demonstration of what I'm trying to say - you internalised the anti-cesarean sentiment which then contributed to your cesarean experience being a bad one, in part because of your pre-concieved ideas, contructed by the information and stories you had read prior. Does that sound right?

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My (strong) preference to avoid c-sections was formed way before I even planned kids and well before I ever found BB. It was reinforced by the information I found here and elsewhere about it being a generally riskier way to give birth if both mum and bub were doing fine. I ended up with the exact outcome I didn't want - a c-section. It was a bad experience for me and I did/do feel assaulted. I'm not sure I internalised a 'sentiment' from others though - prior to my son being born I internalised information and formed opinions about it for my situation. Afterwards, I just internalised my actual experience. It was a inferior option for me (I believe), I do believe my body failed and I do believe my carers and the hospital policy etc failed. This isn't about what I'm 'supposed' to feel. That statement sounds like I'm just mindlessly swallowing other people's rhetoric, which I'm not. I'm trying to process my very real experience. If c-sections were all the rave, I'd still feel terrible about mine and that was my point about traumatic or disappointing vaginal births in my earlier thread. I don't think having one opinion or another is enough by itself to cause negative feelings. I think it's up to each person to decide what's best for them and then how they feel about it (as two seperate things). I know that we all choose how we feel and what we think and I'm struggling with this because I still have heaps of negative emotions about my experience and on some level I must be choosing to have them but there are some bare facts about my birth that don't invite much of a positive spin.

Ah, I dont' know. I probably shouldn't be contributing to this thread cause obviously I am biased about my own experience. And I get that the thread was started by an article discussing a positive view of c-sections. I'd be interested in knowing more about how the author came to that place in herself - what process she went through. I'm using my (very different) experience to illustrate that maybe pre-conceived ideas can set a woman up to feel additional (?unnecessary) disappointment/sadness when the outcome is a c-section but often the real, lived experience is bad irrespective of the woman's attitude to c-sections.

Some good points Kaz. I think people are their own entities and to think that they're all going to take in what they hear and berate themselves for it or take it on and then look for someone to blame, is more a reflection of who they are and where they are in their journey of life, which is never ending. It's apparent when I post things and get an array of responses from people who have had differing births - some feel empowered and motivated by what I post (even if they've had that kind of birth), some feel attacked or guilt from what I post. Some take it away, mull it over and come to peace. Often it's not even my own words - I have posted information about extreme situations I don't agree with and some info that I do - with the purpose of discussion. I think we can all grow from this - isn't that what life is about? Rather than let our inner child out by having a 'temper tantrum', we can hold onto ourselves and experience some real, life-changing growth. Because to think that I post things just to **** off people who have had a c/s, is just not true. I never see an article and think, 'Pwaaah what a good one, that'll upset the c/s people!!' It's just not true - I think that will be a great article to discuss and dissect with the members. But we bring our own experiences into it which is when it can all go downhill.

I think it's important we go through these phases of growth, observing how we're feeling inside, the thoughts that pop up automatically then realising what we do with them. We react the way we do because of our thoughts, beliefs and experiences (and yes our childhood and how we felt growing up), and if we're feeling something negative, then we have the opportunity to learn something and grow. It is a very liberating process, but some of us wont be in that point of our lives where we're ready or able to feel some discomfort in exchange for this growth - because thats what it commands. However some are very ready, even if they don't know it, to end their 'suffering'.

Below is a description of differentiation as coined by David Schnarch, I posted it in a couple of other places but it's very relevant in this situation. It's mentioning intimate relationships, but as he says can be applied to any relationship with anyone at all, most importantly, the most intimate relationship you'll ever have - yourself. It's also interesting to note that whatever level of differentiation our parents had, we'll never have better - we take theirs on. But we do have the opportunity to break the cycle and improve that for our own children, and ourselves, because we're the ones that have to live with us! Makes sense to enjoy the experience as much as possible.

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Differentiation

David Schnarch, Ph.D., the author of Passionate Marriage, suggests that in order to grow within an emotionally committed relationship, we must experience the process of “differentiation.” This means holding onto yourself within a relationship, staying true to what you want out of life while sharing your life with a partner. Differentiation allows us to break free from the negative processes that happen between partners in any relationship. It allows us to take a time out from arguments in order to comfort ourselves. It leads to self-control, which means that we can stop trying to control our partners. The differentiated partner is able to soothe him- or herself rather than pressuring the other person to change in order to make the first one feel better. Paradoxically, when partners differentiate, they actually have the ability to achieve more intimacy, while undifferentiated partners can stay locked in their emotional standoff. And when one partner differentiates, it upsets the old equilibrium that had developed so that the other partner is prompted to make changes as well. In short, a healthy relationship is one in which two people, each of whom has a firm sense of self, come together and celebrate both their differences and their similarities.

Schnarch identifies several activities that happen when a person differentiates.

* Maintaining a clear sense of who you are within the relationship. Your partner was probably originally attracted to you because of the strength of your unique qualities. Both of you knew what you valued and believed in. Over time, because we accommodate ourselves to both our own and our partner’s more immature qualities and unresolved issues, we lose our sense of uniqueness. We compromise ourselves with the goal of smoothing out conflicts and fail to realize that we are losing our sense of self in the process. We may find that we have lost those qualities that were once so attractive to our partner. Differentiation involves looking within, gaining a firm definition of who we are, and celebrating our uniqueness.

* Maintaining a sense of perspective. We need to accept the fact that we all have anxieties and other shortcomings. This is part of the human condition. The mature person, however, understands that these frailties need not determine our behavior. Our limits should neither incapacitate nor drive us. When we honestly accept this fact both in ourselves and in our partners, we can take a more balanced approach in dealing with each other’s limitations. The peaks and valleys of crises can be smoothed out. The blaming can come to an end, replaced by acceptance and love for the other person.

* Committing to a willingness to engage in self-confrontation. Looking within is difficult, but it is a necessary step both in our own life development and in helping our relationships to grow to new levels. Self-confrontation means coming to terms with our own fears, anxieties, and insecurities, a process that may be aided by professional psychotherapy. It may mean accepting the criticisms of our partners as valuable feedback about where our insecurities lie. Self-examination can focus on understanding how and why we manipulate others, undermine our own effectiveness, take a selfish approach at times (or, alternatively, give to others and never to ourselves), and work against our own best interests. We need to understand why we avoid ourselves, and then we need to make an honest commitment to enter into a path of honesty and integrity.

* Acknowledging our projections and distortions of reality that protect us from ourselves. We need to understand why we blame others, especially our emotionally committed partners, rather than acknowledging our own participation in interpersonal conflicts. This involves admitting when we are wrong. We should not expect that our partners will do likewise. Taking an honest approach toward our own lives is a tough, but rewarding, journey into personal integrity. When we embark on the trip, our partners, who are no longer feeling blamed and know that the old emotional standoffs have been eliminated, will often decide to begin their own excursions into self-growth.

* Learning to tolerate the pain involved in self-exploration. Dealing with emotional pain is a talent, which can be learned. In childhood many of us learned unhealthy ways of handling discomfort, often because we lacked supportive role modeling from our parents or other adults that would have taught us how to deal with pain in a healthier way. We may have learned to blame our parents when we faced life’s difficulties, and then we carry this blaming behavior into our committed relationships in adulthood.

* Avoiding pain is the reason many adults indulge in substance abuse or other addictive behaviors such as gambling, inordinate spending, or watching too much television. The healthier option is to make the adult commitment to explore the pain and its sources – and to find ways to make self-growth a friend rather than something to avoid. When we learn to cope with our own pain, we no longer need to manipulate our partners into making us feel better. And when this happens, the magic can re-enter our relationships.

Learn to Self-Soothe in the Face of Conflict

We blame our partners when we feel discomfort, and this tends to create distance within an emotionally committed relationship. The distance, then, creates a feeling of further discomfort. The clue to dealing with this dilemma is to learn how to soothe your own emotional pain. This can open the way to more passion and closeness in your relationship. Schnarch offers several suggestions for helping people to learn the art of self-soothing.

* Don’t take your partner’s behavior personally. Even if your partner doesn’t make all the changes that you’ve made, it should not be taken personally. If you and your partner are having a conflict, try some inwardly focused relaxation techniques. Focus on your breathing. Stop talking and try to slow your heart rate. Lower the volume of your speech and work on relaxing your body.

* Put the current conflict into perspective. Think about past instances of the same type of conflict. What resources did you use in the past for dealing with the conflict? Think about how discomfort will surface again in the future - and if you learn now how to deal with it, you will be better off in these future instances.

* Control your behavior, even if you can’t regulate your emotions. While we may have difficulty in controlling our emotions, especially in the face of a conflict, we can have control over our behavior. Prevent yourself from saying and doing things that you will regret later. Tell yourself: “I don’t have to take action on my feelings.”

* Stop the negative thinking. Our thoughts drive our feelings and behavior. When you find yourself engaged in negative thinking, make the change to more positive thoughts. Accept what is happening and then calm down.

* You may have to break contact temporarily with your partner until things cool down. When you are engaged in a conflict, you may need some time to get in touch with your self again. Look on this as a time-out, not a separation. Tell your partner that you need some time alone to calm down and that you can discuss the issue better later, after both of you have had some space from each other.

* Self-soothing does not involve substance abuse, the abuse of food, or emotional regression. You need time to confront yourself and understand what your part in the conflict may be. This does not mean hiding out, sleeping, binge-eating, or the use of drugs or alcohol, which are all ways to avoid self-confrontation.

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Yes, compassion is a great trait to have; you just have to see Inanna's heartfelt posts. That is not in any way trying to make c/s women feel any less, and again none of the mods have ever said things to the effect that c/s women are lesser/weaker women. (I am a huge believer in you do what you did at the time with the best you knew/thought/had - even I have done things I wont do again but I didn't know better). But regardless, you absolutely cannot change what she (or anyone else for that matter) thinks, says or feels. All you can do is change how you think, react and feel if you want to be more happy/less effected by what you see/hear. And I do wonder if those who do feel negative emotions from what is posted on BB, want that? Depends where you're at in your differentiation process I guess.

There are two lives you can choose to live. The one you have now, feeling like you do, be it - guilt, worthless, useless, bullied, victimised or other. Or the one you have now.... without that feeling - and how great would that be? You just have to make the choice. Byron Katie's work is all that, for those who haven't seen her work, click the link in my sig :) She works with people with cancer, loss of relatives - so the most sensitive of topics, in order to help them to help themselves end their suffering and have quality of life with what they have been dealt.

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Speak for yourself. Others contacted me and said that they approved on my contribution including my reply to Kelly. I'm disappointed that somehow unless you agree you are open for ridicule.

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I don't think that posting a differing opinion is eqivalent to ridicule, Stretcher Bearer.

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You do not have to actively or directly denigrate someone to have an effect on them. My post and the article came from the notion not everyone has to feel bad about their birth experiences even if some of their choice is removed. Opinions can be like propaganda-very hurtful if taken the wrong way. Why do you think the women in the article wrote it?

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I think the woman who wrote that article wrote it for the same reason you are writing your posts here - because she feels "bad" or "judged" for having a caesarean section. What I am saying to you is that no one on this site is denigrating you or judging your choices. In fact, you said it yourself - we don't have to actively denigrate you to have an effect on you. I agree, there is no shame in having your choices taken away - and yet the article above, and your posts, suggest that you feel that shame.

If your negative feelings are not coming from without, than maybe they are coming from within?

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I have no unresolved feelings about our experience- it was amazing and under the circumstances and given the clinical need of my partner and child, I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't need any 'experts' to analyse my or my partners emotions.

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And I apologise if I came across as such. I just don't understand why you feel such negativity towards your choice, when you keep telling us you feel it was the right one? I'm glad your experience was amazing. Our three births were as well. FWIW, our first one was a homebirth (well, they all were) and I had some feelings I had to work through after that in the lead-up to our second birth. And we have been "judged" for our choices as well.

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Perhaps if I am allegedly taking things this way then why do you guys have a look at what you are doing. Perhaps the way your philosophies are presented could be look at in other ways. Of course it is easier to blame me as the apparent sh** stirrer.

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Well, we do confer pretty closely amongst ourselves whenever we are discussing a topic that we are concerned might be controversial - as CS discussions almost always are. We aim to discuss the facts about pregnancy and birth, dismiss myths about birth, and support all women regardless of their choice.

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I don't feel judged one iota, certainly I am not going to lose sleep on the comments of a web forum.

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Heh, awesome, I'm glad. That's a good attitude to have.

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There aren't any philosophies to cater for except unbiasedness. I have learnt a lot from this site and will continue to do so. It saddens me that some how it appears that you only want a site where the opinions tow the line especially on controversial subjects.

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The only line we want toed, son, is the line of fact versus fiction. We don't mind controversial topics, as long as everyone has a chance to have their voice heard and it stays civil.

You think this is bad, wait until you discuss circumcision... ;)

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My thread was started to inform others. My comments to another member were to help her which they did. Why should I be chastised for that? Don't agree with what I post then fine. Lets talk about it.

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I think the article was an interesting one. It addresses a problem - "caesarean guilt" - that a lot of women experience. It is more your suggestions that we are biased that is an issue here. And I think this illustrates exactly why "caesarean guilt" is such a problem - that as much of it comes from within as from the opinion of society.

Kaz - of course, sorry if my words upset you and also that you had a traumatic experience :hug: What I was trying to say in my OP is that for many women, c/sections are a horrible experience because they just are a horrible experience for them, and for *some others* they are made a (more) horrible experience because they go into it expecting it to be, or they are suprised by a c-section & come out of it confused and as they read other people's feelings, those feelings become incorporated into their own interpretation of their own experience. I didn't mean to imply that pre-concieved ideas are the only factor in causing the bad experience - just that they *are* a factor, and quite possibly a big one for *some women*. If there was nothing bad about the experience, those ideas wouldn't stick or resonate, so I certainly didn't mean to imply that people feel bad about c-sections solely because they choose to be.

I think, essentially, we're saying a very similar thing:

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I'm using my (very different) experience to illustrate that maybe pre-conceived ideas can set a woman up to feel additional (?unnecessary) disappointment/sadness when the outcome is a c-section but often the real, lived experience is bad irrespective of the woman's attitude to c-sections.

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and

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I don't think having one opinion or another is enough by itself to cause negative feelings.

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But, I do believe that having that opinion can make it very difficult to have a positive c-section experience.

When all you read before you go into one is that c-sections are bad, then that's what's in your mind, and all the bad parts are more prominent to you than any of the good.

Maybe more of us need to post our positive c-section experiences so that there is a balanced range of experiences for new mothers to read. It doesn't really feel like they would be welcome here as it goes against the grain, but perhaps there is a need anyway. Afterall, some women are always going to have to face c-sections and it would be nice for them to know that it's not always horrid for everyone.

I didn't see the OP as 'informative', more just sharing an experience, actually. Which is great, anecdotally, just not as a piece of information. Sorry to split hairs :p
I liken it to abortion. You can't say that because your own experience in termination was traumatic and horrible that it must be that way for all women who experience termination...because, clearly, some women are liberated by it. They then feel guilty because they don't feel guilty!
For me, as long as the woman (delivering via c-section or having a termination) has not been disempowered by the event, it's just a thing that happened to achieve a result.
As Skeet said, there are women for whom an emerg c-section was the culmination of a hijacking of their values and sense of self-efficacy that could have been avoided.
There are women who will read this article and say "phew, so glad I read that, that's how I feel!" and there will be plenty more women who will think "good for her, I still feel majorly ripped off and angry about how I was treated and how it all happened". For example, I know someone who is due to give birth any day now who is going for a VBAC because she believes now that induction resulted in her having an emerg c-section and that testing for GBS set her up for this (realising in hindsight that what the doc told her about GBS was crap - that she'd have it for the rest of her pregnancy, not explaining that it's a very unreliable test)...so for this pregnancy she didn't even do the test for GBS, to avoid that cascade. She may end up with a c-section again, who knows? But at least she has controlled for all in her immediate power. So, for her, she realises that her pregnancy was unnecessarily medicalised.
But, sheesh, in the case of premature birth and other complications, who could say that medical intervention was unnecessary?
It IS a fact that interventions, however necessary DO interrupt a hormonal process and this messes with a woman's thinking and can affect her mothering. We are mammals. We are human animals with the capacity for self-recrimination and also for judgment of others. When it comes to birth and parenting, this is not a good mix!

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Maybe more of us need to post our positive c-section experiences so that there is a balanced range of experiences for new mothers to read. It doesn't really feel like they would be welcome here as it goes against the grain, but perhaps there is a need anyway.

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This might be how you feel but that is not how it is. I've not received one complaint or joke or snigger at any member posting their caesarean birth stories which made them feel good. Us mods don't sit and have a ***** reading members caesarean birth stories in that forum, nor do we pick apart anyone's story. Seriously, if you had a great birth then the whole mod team are happy for you! It doesn't effect us, it's not our birth. But we all hope that you have a great one.

There is no grain that says women cannot post positive birth experiences no matter what form they come in. Someone's experience is just that, but we reserve the right to post when someone posts something that is not factually correct - i.e. the fallacy that having a c/s will preserve your pelvic floor - because we know from fact that its the weight of pregnancy that actually effects the pelvic floor, not vaginal birth in itself.

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Afterall, some women are always going to have to face c-sections and it would be nice for them to know that it's not always horrid for everyone.

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We know that also. I know a birth attendant I trained with who had a slow to progress footling breech which transferred to hospital and eventually decided on a c/s as there wasn't enough pressure on the cervix to get that labour going. As she was being wheeled into theatre, a foot popped out her vagina. I saw the photos, it was amazing... they put an epidural in for the c/s and the baby crashed badly and was in NICU after a fair bit of resus, it was very touch and go, but both were fine. After all that? She said she was grateful for the experience because she saw that c/s are not the end of the world as she thought it to be, it was very healing especially for someone who works in that field - it's all about your own thoughts and beliefs - she could have chosen to look at the birth another way. I'm not saying you can't grieve - I am sure she was in some degree of shock for a while there. But when thoughts dominate or take over what is reality, then it can be a problem.

So I do know of these examples, its one of many, I listened to her story intently and loved the pictures. I've seen other pictures and stories of maternal assisted c/s too. I have nothing against people sharing birth stories, and there is even a c/s birth story section on the main site. I invite any of you to share yours, I have no bias in publishing it on the main site and of course you can post it in the birth story forum as well.

I'm sorry but this may be a stupid question. How can you be liberated by having an abortion?