Byron Katie/Eckhardt Tolle/Buddhist Philosopy and self responsibility

Well there was a thread a few weeks back that discussed responsibility for our feelings. I would like to talk about that and hear what others think... There was a suggestion that if we are responsible for our own feelings then it takes away responsibility for being polite.

What do others think?

It's a tricky one hey?

I don't agree. I believe that in being totally responsible for how we feel & how we act we take reaction out of the equation and thus the ego. I also believe that being so self responsible enables me to have MORE empathy for others and more in touch with how another may be feeling.

I have shared before that I am a HUGE follower of Byron Katie (a groupie I would say! :redface:). She suggests that we are responsible for how we choose to feel and thus respond at any given moment.
I also have studied (and continue to do so) Buddhist philosophy & I am also a fan of Eckhardt Tolle... All three philosophies suggest that we are completely responsible for our feelings - very very very challenging at times trust me! :D

However, for me it fits like a glove & I just "get it"... That is not to say that I don't also struggle with maintaining this as welll... :redface:

What do others think?

wow what a great thread.

i would like to think that i could be responsible for my feelings but that is such a hard thing to do always.
i agree that being responsible for our feeling does not mean that we should not be polite and kind. i believe the opposite really. if we can understand how we react to what people say then shouldn't we then realise how people will react to what we say. in an ideal world i think this would be true and there would be a lot of spared feelings.

this is a really interesting topic and im glad that someone has decided to discuss this.

I can see the merit in total responsibility in some situations eg. if someone tells me "you really should get an iPhone" of course I would feel totally responsible for my feelings if I felt angry, aggrieved or whatever because really that situation doesn't matter and if their thoughts upset me it says more about me, than them.

But if DP was on the computer while I was cooking dinner, trying to feed DD, change her nappy and put her to bed and I said, "I feel like you're not pulling your weight" and he responded by saying, "well, you're responsible for your own feelings," then that wouldn't sit well with me. I would think that the responsible thing to do would for us to both talk about our feelings and try to understand the other person's point of view rather than for me (to not say anything thinking I'm totally responsible for my own feelings) and for DP (to brush my feelings aside).

But I don't know anything about the philosophers you've mentioned FC so I should learn more about them before even attempting to respond. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it sounds fantastic in theory and there certainly are merits in that POV but I'm not sure that ANY philosophy fits all situations.

You see though Fiona "I feel like you're not pulling your weight" - that's not a feeling. The feeling is angry (that he's at the computer), frustrated etc etc... KWIM???

So, if you were to say: "I feel angry when you work at the computer while I organise dinner"... However, it's still your resposibility (accordimg to this philosophy!) how you choose to feel.
We make up arguments about why he is doing it. He is arrogat. He doesn't care about me. He thinks I am a servant...
However, if we can let go of the feeling and watch it... Is it that important???

Maybe the answer is still yes! All coolies...

What if you were to say: "I find it hard to organise dinner and children alone"... "Can we agree on a time after dinner so that you can work on the computer and I will find it easier"... You completely own this as your "problem"... Your husband is fine - he is happy tapping away on the puter while you cook and juggle so making it about him is an energy waster... KWIM

According to Byron we spend so much time justifying our anger/frustration what ever the case may be. If we accept what is and move to improving what is then we have less stress and are more happy!

What do you think?

please please note I am playing devils advocate and making the assumption that we are all happy to gently and kindly debate. If this is not so please tell me - I am NOT criticising or preaching. I have just as much a challenge with this as the next flo!

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I can see the merit in total responsibility in some situations eg. if someone tells me "you really should get an iPhone" of course I would feel totally responsible for my feelings if I felt angry, aggrieved or whatever because really that situation doesn't matter and if their thoughts upset me it says more about me, than them.

But if DP was on the computer while I was cooking dinner, trying to feed DD, change her nappy and put her to bed and I said, "I feel like you're not pulling your weight" and he responded by saying, "well, you're responsible for your own feelings," then that wouldn't sit well with me. I would think that the responsible thing to do would for us to both talk about our feelings and try to understand the other person's point of view rather than for me (to not say anything thinking I'm totally responsible for my own feelings) and for DP (to brush my feelings aside).

But I don't know anything about the philosophers you've mentioned FC so I should learn more about them before even attempting to respond. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it sounds fantastic in theory and there certainly are merits in that POV but I'm not sure that ANY philosophy fits all situations.

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I think the points made in this thread is fantastic. It really is wonderful to be responsible for our own feelings. I think being responsible for our own feelings doesn't mean always sitting back and saying nothing, but speaking (or not speaking) and acting from a position of emotional maturity that is independent of how the other person is treating us. What do you think?

I think that too Xanthe... I don't think it's allowing abuse though. When we can be an observer of our life & mindful and watchful of reaction... Reaction is always (I believe) from the ego... At least emotional reaction...

It's hard often though hey?

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I think that too Xanthe... I don't think it's allowing abuse though. When we can be an observer of our life & mindful and watchful of reaction... Reaction is always (I believe) from the ego... At least emotional reaction...

It's hard often though hey?

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It is very hard sometimes :redface:. Especially when you need to respond quickly, or are frazzled and tired. It requires fast self reflection! And I find this difficult if my day has been one constant rush.

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According to Byron we spend so much time justifying our anger/frustration what ever the case may be. If we accept what is and move to improving what is then we have less stress and are more happy!

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exactly. we need to look at why we feel, accept it and then work to change it.

So, what is it that stops us from doing this?

I think *we all take ourselves too seriously and don't laugh enough. I believe we sometimes overthink stuff.
Most of the time things are the way they are, just because that's the way they are. I have ceased to stress about why people do things or why the world sucks sometimes. It just IS.
That's certainly not to say I don't give a toss, cos I do. I think acceptance is the path to freedom and laughter is the secret....

just my 10 cents..!

Wise words from Lulu - I agree down to a t... :hug:

great threat flowerchild.

No comments at the moment, have got a wiggly baby on my lap - but our feelings/emotions are the only thing we truly own.

I am reading Byron Katie atm and it does resonate with some of my own learnings from my life experience. I didn't realise it was a 'philosophy' as such! But I am being educated on how far it can extend.

I remember in my late teens looking at my past (I was abused by my father, went to court and he went to jail) and thinking "I can either let this affect whether or not I trust anyone ever again or I can decide that I don't want to live my life like that and let it go". So I did. Completely. I don't think anyone believes me when I say honestly that I don't have any negative feelings about anything associated with the abuse. I can still hate that everything happened and the way that the whole court system operated on an intellectual level, but I really don't feel it in my heart. And when you take a decision like that about something so big (and I can extend this then to my mother, with whom I had a very difficult relationship with until I just accepted, forgave and rebuilt it), then it tends to carry across to other aspects of your life.

None of the counselling, etc, really made much of an impact at the time on me, it was one small line in a book about memory of which the gist was that many people can experience the same thing (in childhood, like starting school) but it's how we perceive the event to have occurred that affects the way we feel about it and any possible ongoing trauma. And that we have the power to go back and change our perceptions about memory. I know this gets off the track of responsibility, but in some ways I think it completely relates to the fact that we are responsible for even our own memories!

Don't know if that makes any sense, but that's how it happened for me.

I've just started reading A New Earth, and so i'm really glad you've started this thread Flowerchild. I'm only a few pages in, and already i'm approaching situations in a different manner. I will often see a couple of friends chatting together, and sometimes think 'they're talking about me - saying nasty things". Now when those thoughts enter my head i say to my ego -'get over yourself, you've not done anything to warrant being talked about, and if they are talking about you - that is their issue and it's probably coming from their own egos.
I think i could probably learn alot from you Flowerchild. Will you be my guru???????:D

Jennifer13 - I have a similar philosophy - domestic violence for 10 years and had to decide whether I would let it (PTSD) rule the rest of my life or take control of it.

I had trouble with A new Earth - I felt that he was rehashing things that previous authors had discussed. I tend not to stick to any one particular philosophy, but instead let signs in my life show lead me towards what I need... so I've gone through the following texts:

Bhagavad Gita
Caroline Myss - The castle within
St Teresa's books - The maisons (which are really hard to read and you have to be in the zone)
Buddhism - various books Dali Lama
Jack Kornfield - After the estacy the laundry and a path with heart.
Tenzin Palmo - A cave in the snow and reflections on a mountain lake.
What the bleep (the movie)
Cosmology books
Gaia books
A whole stack of spiritual books

Sorry off topic....but for me its a conscious decision and sometimes its a difficult one, and a difficult road to travel at times.

Only just found this section/thread.

Just briefly (my boys are being quite noisy ATM) I'll have to come back later... but essentially I think that much conflict in the world could be resolved if people considered the benefits of taking responsibility for their emotions (which are not always appropriate or helpful). Emotions do not always have lives of their own... you don't have to say "well I can't help how I feel". People often can.... and would be a lot happier if they could. I'm not saying I can always control mine! Like FC I too find it incredibly difficult to always modify my emotions but I aspire to it... because I know that when I do I often feel a lot more at peace with my self and my world. I know, for example, if I didn't choose to avoid hating certain people in my life that that hate would consume me... so for my own sanity I choose a different emotion: hard to explain but it's more like an acceptance of what has happened and an acknowledgement that as awful as what it was it has made me the person who i am today (who due to to the events I think have a lot more empathy for other people than if I hadn't endured them). So due to at least one significant success (in avoiding a life hating = pain) I am very keen to learn more. I'll look into those people you mentioned Deb... thankyou for starting this thread :) :hug: I'll be back!

Wonderful thread Flowerchild :D I love these topics.

I too, follow the beliefs/philosophies of the Buddhism teachings. I try very hard to live my life following these beliefs but i'm not very good at it some times, and like everyone, would always like to improve on this. I think it's a lifelong journey in self discovery and I think would take many, many years of practising to get it right too and even then there is always more to learn iykwim.

There is a wonderful quote that relates to this topic of owning your own feelings and that is "Holding onto anger is like grasping onto a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else. You are the one who gets burned." (Gautama Buddha).... how very true this is.

I believe you are giving others the power to own your feelings too when you allow yourself to react or get upset or offended by something they have said either directly said to you or indirectly. WE need to own our own feelings, and hold the power.

I'm currently reading "Buddhism for Mothers" by Sarah Napthali.

I look forward to reading more posts.

I think liz28 said it very well - self awareness only enhances our empathy for others. I can be responsible for my emotions without riding roughshod over others. Doesn't mean I always do, cause I'm still learning. But sometimes this newfound clarity can help in facilitating better mutual understanding.

The hot coal quote is great, I like that.

Can we control our emotions? I'm not sure. They seem to spring up from somewhere out of our control. Certainly we can claim them as our own, rather than blaming others. And we can control the way we react to them. Maybe we can divert our (bad) emotions and take power away from them.

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Can we control our emotions? I'm not sure. They seem to spring up from somewhere out of our control. Certainly we can claim them as our own, rather than blaming others. And we can control the way we react to them. Maybe we can divert our (bad) emotions and take power away from them.

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Of course we can control our emotions, we do it all the time! Controlling emotions under pressure is the hard bit.
I just do the exact opposite of how I'm feeling if I'm getting too shirty about something/one. If I feel like ripping someone to shreds (usually well deserved because it takes alot to get me shat off), I smile instead. I still continue what I am doing, so if its a conversation, I stop breathe, smile and keep going. It's usually enough to make the other person mirror what I'm doing and pull the pressure out of the situation.

Just takes practice is all.

Ah yes, of course:D I did not say what I wanted to say. I mean, can we stop the emotions from coming at all?

Can we stop them from surfacing at all? Hmmm.... I think that depends on changing some very fundamental things that relate back to when we were infants. Theoretically I think it can be possible but maybe not by ourselves... i think it is the kind of thing that you would need professional help with. Our strong emotions come from the oldest and deepest parts of our brain... where the pathways are well traveled. From what I have read a persons emotional response can be a high or low pathway depending on for example how much stress they are under at the time (more stress = low pathway is used meaning a faster more instinctual response will be provoked)... less stress equals a higher path, more complex but also more able to be modified. Pathways are laid down from the moment we are born (some people think maybe even in the womb). If you want to be able to create a new emotional response to a situation then a new path has to be created and this takes time and repetition. I think that the best most of us can hope for is being able to get faster (and more reflexively - is that a word? LOL) note the arrival of an undesired emotion and get faster at modifying it. This is really beneficial if done with emotions such as anger... when it will not be helpful. So, short answer: possibly, but only with help... I think... and even if you do get help you will need to practice a lot for it to be effective.

If you follow the buddhist way, you would feel the emotion and recognise the emotion (i.e. anger) and then let it go.
it takes practice - but the theory is that you also have to give up the good emotions as well, so you go from having the peaks and troughs of emotions.

I'd never want to stop or suppress emotion at all, it would be terribly unhealthy wouldn't it?

We need our emotions so badly, especially the hard ones like fear and rage. They protect us as well though. We have to somehow experience pain in order to avoid it unnecessarily and appreciate our existence and also leads us to empathy, in the long run.

How come it's so easy to laugh? We never question that do we? We can't programme our emotions like we can't change our DNA (imho so much of it is laid down as children and beyond our control) - but we can chose to understand why we feel as we do. I couldn't cut out ANY part of my emotional response without it affecting something else - like my judgement.
The way I deal with pain is to roll around in it a bit, yanno. Dip my toes in, taste it a little. I'm not picking at a scab or nursing it, but after awhile I'm ready to have a go. I LET myself feeeeeeeel it. (hey who hasn't sat in front of the stereo playing fave sad tunes with tears rolling down your cheeks - a good cry feels AWESOME!) Sometimes I go back and remember what caused me the pain so I can investigate it again - what was the body language like, did I raise my voice, should I have let go a little, been more patient? etc. And I answer my own questions, it hurts a little less - If I'm honest with myself the whole process goes faster blah, blah, blah.

OMG, I just read that paragraph back and it really sounds like I'm a bloody EMO!

I don't think it sounds emo at all Lulu, just honest and I can definitely relate.

Wanted to write a response to your post Lulu, but everything I wrote sounded like a saga, or something out of a soapie... so I took out my personal experience.

Emotions are a good thing to have, when in moderation.. it is the extremes that we need to be careful of.. I'm thinking in the relm of violence at one end of the spectrum and those who are unable to feel emotions (can't think of the technical term).

I love these threads! What is an Emo? I don't think we have them up here in the mountains! :redface:

I have a different belief around emotions Bath. Whilst I will certainly agree that many of our strong emotions come from childhood - I believe they come from even further back than that (but that's another thread I realise.. ;))

I also don't believe you need professional help necessary. I believe the biggest hurdle to personal growth and emotional development is a willing to be open. To learn and to listen to others Wisdom. The wisest words I have heard have not always come from renown "wise ones" (though many have...) We all have our wisdom and it's collected like wrinkles and stretch marks over the years.

I have sat at the feet of Wise Women and Men and had that feeling of being in the presence of someone great. I have also done that in a birthing room, a counselling room or the room of a dying person... I have also felt that way in less intense situations.

Therapy is great and I wouldn't much like a World without it. However I have seen therapy do nothing for an unwilling Soul... For therapy to truly work we have to be willing to grow. Being willing to grow means humility - a trait that is sadly lacking today...

Emotions are normal - being ruled by them is dysfunctional and very very painful! The person who exclaims: "he made me feel unwanted" - wow how much power do you give to others when you believe that? Only I can make myself feel unwnted. I can feel unwanted all on my own... KWIM?

With practice - much practice you can become a voyeur to your emotions. You watch them rise, name them: "oh what I am feeling is anger"... Or to quote a beautiful nun I know: "I feel anger arising in me"... "Thankyou Anger you showed me how beautiful tolerance is"...

We can do this but it takes practice. Even the most practiced fall short sometimes - for to err is human... :) However, imagine for a moment the World with self responsibility as it's Monarch?

No longer would you hear: "when you don't help me do the dishes you make me feel angry"... Maybe ther would be: "It would help if we did the dishes together and then we can sit down"... That other person is free to say yes or no... No has to be met in the same spirit as yes. Because no isn't about me it's about them. No can be for lots of reasons and for me to attatch: "he only said no to make my life harder, because he is lazy, because he doesn't respect how much I do around here.... Imagine meeting no with okay. Okay not passive aggressive okay. Just okay! Maybe: "I hear you say no so sometime soon I would like us to talk about how we can deal with the dishes..."

There are many who will leave your life when you change from owning your emotions to blaming them on another. It is just too confronting for some. There are also many who will come into it!

Just an aside: I am no guru my love - I fall short and my ivory tower sometimes is not gleaming! :hug:

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Just an aside: I am no guru my love - I fall short and my ivory tower sometimes is not gleaming! :hug:

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Every time I read one of your posts FC, I am inspired, and reading your posts is sometimes easier than reading a page of 'A New Earth'. Perhaps your ivory tower is not always gleaming, but that just makes you more personable.

Flowerchild....

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What is an Emo? I don't think we have them up here in the mountains!

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you probably do, just may not realise it. Emos hang out a lot at Sunshine Plaza around the McDonalds area. You can usually identify them by the black clothes, black hair and very light/white foundation they wear.

It's a large generalization but - EMO, short for emotional. No one understands them, they think soooo deeply, are usually teens wearing black, black hair etc. I love them cos my daughter and all her friends are (in fact they are the funniest kids - very dry humour!).

Just wanted to put something in (that Bath will luurve) about emotions. It's ok to allow yourself to investigate why we feel something right? I think many people are so busy and scheduled or sleepless with worry or wakeful children etc that we don't have the time to give for the investigation iykwim? Our downtime, alone time - to gather your thoughts and roll them around in your mind - so we are scattered and can often react quickly in the negative.

Oh I think in "my day" they were Goth's!

Thanks Misty - why are they emotional??? I know this is the wrong thread. But I have heard Emo a lot & I get the clothes and the look - but the emo thing... :think:

Jazhamum - you are kind thankyou honey... :hug:
Maybe there is another book there: "the earth according to Flower!!!! :rofl: :hug:

You'll have to ask Rouge for the full historical facts of Goth/Emo etc! I think it might be a reference to the music 'they' listen to???

All I know is DD and most of her friends dyed their hair black and suddenly they are all declared Emo. They seem they same to me as they were pre Napro days...

Wow, what a great thread.

I recognise a lot in Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie . I think it is very true what they write.
But OMG I never thougt it would be so dificult to actually live that way! My mum is a great inspiration for me, she has come very far on this path, but me? Still searching and finding my way in this. What makes it harder for me is that no one in my "area" discusses anything like this.
Glad BB does! Now all I have to do is translate my feelings in English!

Thanks guys for these threads!

Hi B - it must be a challenge to translate your feelings into English, kudos for you for trying! :hug:

It does make it more difficult when you don't have peers who think similarly. But your Mum! Having your Mum who is living this way is fabulous.

It's not easy to change your thinking is it... I know I struggle often! It's much easier when things are going smoothly but when there is a stress it does make it much harder.
Remember that it's a process to change. We learn nothing of real value if we don't have to struggle and fall. Don't beat yourself up when you don't meet the standard you are setting for yourself. Be gentle and kind with yourself - just as you aim to be gentle and kind to others. You deserve the same treatment that you afford others!!!

Good luck my love - :hug:

Just a quick post – will come back to this when I get home from work.

I've gone through a lot emotionally in the last few years, more sometimes that I thought I could handle - but as my mother used to say "the universe will not throw anything at you that you can't handle".

I've learnt, primarily in the last 15 months, to acknowledge, own and release my emotions. I will laugh, cry, get angry, love etc, but I also look at where those emotions are coming from, question those feelings that I really shouldn’t be having but am reacting to other people.

I came out on an emotionally abusive marriage, thought that I deserved all that he had done to me, because I was a weak person. But looking back I realised that it was what he wanted me to believe, what he did was took a strong woman and nearly destroyed that person. I have taken responsibility for allowing that to happen, no I’m not saying I deserved it but taking responsibility for how I reacted to it. I am responsible for not standing up to his treatment and his behaviour earlier, to buying into his mother’s belief about her son (that it was all because he had ADD). But when I started to look at how I was handling things emotionally, I realised that I wasn’t the person I knew I was or should be. My marriage was a learning experience and I did learn from it, I've grown as a person because of what he put me through, and is continuing to put me through.

AND that shows what strength of character you have. Many people become bitter and twisted. You have used it as your trampoline. You rock. :hug:

Wow Angelpunks,

Good for you, reacting the way you do!!

Thanks Flowerchild for your kind words! Funny thing is, I tend to think in English, but having to write everything makes me a bit insecure but I guess it would be the same for me in Dutch. It is just having to put your emotions down in words is what is difficult for me.

Yep it is (for me anyway) incredibly hard to change my thinking, but working on it! Just have to tell myself that I have to take it day by day.
And at least we are trying/ making the effort hey?!