BEWARE - sleep advice from the 'experts' MAY BE DISTRESSING

WARNING = THIS POST CONTAINS DISTURBING MATERIAL AND MAY BE UPSETTING TO SOME


This is a bit of a vent post! I have been having lots of trouble with DD sleeping of late - since her wonderful arrival into this world I have not got up less than twice a night and last few nights it has been hourly (even with her in bed with us for half of the night). However, I would rather be up all night than to follow the advice given to some people i know. The first two examples below are directly from my close friends, the third awful horrifying story is a friend of a friend and they are all recent!

1. A mother of twin boys went to a leading paediatrician in adelaide and was told 'now what you need to do is to put a lock on their bedroom door - lock them in at 7 pm at night and do not go back until 7 am in the morning'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. A mother of a six month old who has always had issues with sleep such that only way baby can get to sleep is by mum cuddling him (even after two weeks in a place called torrens house where they help with sleep/feeding issues) was told by another leading paediatrician that he should now be sleeping through the night so give him a top up feed and then go back after 5 hours no matter what (even if he screams/cries etc)!!!!!!!

3. A mother of a six month old girl went to a sleep doctor in adelaide and was told to give baby a top up feed and then do not go back into nursery for seven hours NO MATTER WHAT!!! Well unfortunately the parents followed this advice, the baby screamed for seven hours and when they went to baby after SEVEN hours the cot was covered in poo and vomit - no the baby cries whenever going near her cot!!!

I could not get to sleep last night thinking about that poor baby and cannot believe this is the advice given by some experts in this day and age. Surely these practices constitute child abuse - I wouldn't treat my dog like that let alone another human being.

So please beware if you are seeking expert advice on sleep issues and instead follow your heart and your own intuition

OMG that is terrible those poor terrified babies.

My Jaw dropped reading each of your points.

I agree - I forgot to say that the first two mothers ignored the advice thank goodness!

That is blooming awful! I cannot believe these people were advised to lock the door and not go back in. I would be traumatised let alone how traumatic it would be on bub. The poor little girl who is now afraid of her cot. I really don't know how the parents could have held out for 7 hours of crying and screaming. I bet they feel terrible after what they saw when they went back in.

Awww, I just want to give these babies (and parents) a big hug. We have sleeping troubles here too with our youngest needing to be rocked to sleep each time but no way I could leave her locked in a room :(

Hun, OMG at that advice :o And the last one is just too awful for words, that poor little bubba :( how could they do that??!!

As you know we are having much the same issues as you with E's sleep, but I would be absolutely not prepared to do any of that and even if I was DH would not let me! Thank goodness he is so good that he will take E when she won't settle and I have just had it.

And BTW, I was told by the nurse that did our vax at 4 months that I could let her CIO now :rolleyes: And just had our 6 month vax last week and had her tell me that again plus a whole bunch of other garbage....but that's a whole other vent ;)

That is disgusting! How are these people called 'experts' :shakehead:. I agree I wouldn't treat my dog like that either. Those poor bubbas who have to go through it. :cry:

Wow!
That last one brought tears to my eyes.
SO sad for that poor bubba.
I haven't had a full nights sleep in 15 mths. My DD still wakes at least 3 times a night.
Yes I am tired and grumpy and sometimes at 3am I ask "Why can you not just sleep!" but I suck it up and get on with it. She is just the type of kid that needs a cuddle at 3am to feel safe and loved.
Just because someone has a medical degree does not make them all knowing. I wish people would trust themselves more. It must have been heartbreaking for those parents to listen to their baby cry for seven hours.

As much as I dislike some forms of sleep training I am a big believer that if they are to be done they should be done in a supervised situation like a sleep school so things like this do not happen.

oh those poor mums, dads and bubs!
i just want to give them *all* a huge, huge hug!
and a swift kick up the bum to the people who suggested such horrable things to do :cry:

in hospital with DS at 2 months i was told that he could be patted to sleep and he only needed a feed after 4hrs. they then tired to pat him off to sleep and the nurse who was doing it was "trained in making babies sleep" i screamed at her like a banchee (as you do after listening to your bubba cry for an hour) and told her that its my BABY she was patting not my cat.

and FWIW - DS at 5 months started teething so was up every 2hrs. now its started again at 13 months with teething/developmental leaps.

OMG I shouldn't have read that. That is just absolutely horrific!!!!!!!!!! Why would they tell someone to leave their baby alone for 7 hrs no matter what???? That is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks everyone for replying - glad i am not the only one who is absolutely horrified by all this.

Dansta - yes I think DD is probably teething which might explain why her sleep is so bad at the moment. Have tried teething gel and panadol but that hasn't made any difference. Did you find anything that helped with your DSs sleep at that stage? Oh and good on you for telling off that silly nurse (i had a chuckle about the patting the cat thing - so true (i might use that one next time I get that advise from the CAFS nurses!)

Sorry if my post has upset anyone - I just felt that it is important to post - even if it saved one baby from having to go through that it is worth it.

Reading that last one made me feel sick! "Experts" should know better. How could the parents let that child scream?

ll80, I'm with you on the sleep dep front

OMG....wow, thats really bad advice. I bet if these so called medical experts were terribly upset about something and were crying and sobbing and thier wives/friends were in the next room and didnt go to help them/talk to them they would be angry and upset that no one showed they cared....why is a baby different! Id like to lock them in a room! grrrr!
Im with you on the sleep dep too....DD is nearly 20 months old and i havent had more than about 4 hours sleep in one go since she was born.....but i couldnt take that advice no matter how hard it got! Now she is a talker she will wake up and tell me what she needs, weather its cold/hot/juice/boobie/cuddles/scared etc.....how could i deny her any of those things!? thats all she wanted as a baby but couldnt vocalise it....so that makes it ok to ignore those needs???

That is just disgraceful and quite upsetting. That poor, poor baby who was left in a cot in her own poo and vomit. I just cannot believe it. Good to hear that the first two mums ignored the advice though. I am a bit stunned to be honest, especially that paediatricians are giving this kind of advice.

That last story really upset me :cry: I cant' believe these 'experts' tell these parents this BUT I also can't believe some parents can actually follow thru with it?!? How can they actually listen to their baby's cries/screams for that long??? That would be unbearable and so stressful.

What happened to 'experts' telling mothers to follow their instincts and if it doesnt' feel right then don't do it?!?! :wall: I understand parents get desperate.... it's really hard and tiring when your LO won't sleep! We know what that's like.... :lol:

I watched Pinky on tv the other morning on Kerri Anne show.... she made some excellent points (as usual :D) about parenting and how more parents need to be in tune with their babies and hold them instead of forcing them to sleep etc.....

I just lay down with my DD for 1hr to get her to sleep.... she crawled all over me, mucked about etc but I just stayed with her until she was asleep..... much more relaxing for me as the parent too as I got to lie down and have a rest :D

:o
I physically feel ill after reading that last one :( that poor little darlin
:(

I had a paed at a sleep school tell me that it was OK for her to scream until she vomitted if that's what it took....she was a mum of 4.
Needless to say her credibility took a nose dive, as did the sleep school and we left. It was private too so people actually pay to go there.

I am wiht you heaven should not have read it :(
I am actually feeling physically ill about that poor little baby being so distressed :(

As mums we have to do what is right for our babies, but we shouldn NEVER EVER go against our own hearts and judgement....no matter what someone told me to do I could not ever let my child get so hysterical I would prefer to cry a million tears before letting my precious baby scream :(

When did our babies become so inconvient and sleep become the be all and end all of parenting? Nothing, NOTHING is more important than my babies...I dont care that I am sleep depreived or have no grown up social life they will be tiny for such a short time and I will only do what feels right in my heart.

Off to hug my babies...sorry for the rant!
And OP :hug: Big higs hun what an awful thing to be told :(

Sorry Heaven and Boomba - it is distressing and wasn't my intention to just pass on the distress. Just wanted to make people aware that this advice is being given still. I agree wholeheartedly with all your comments and have also advised someone who works with the Infant Mental Health group of these examples - something should be done about these particular medical experts I think! I also agree that I could not let my baby cry for even 10 minutes without attending to her even if all the doctors in Australia told me too!

babymiracles: i've fond that the amber teething necklace has helped DS - but i got that when he was 12 months - other mums around the traps swear by them.

I agree that babies are so little for such a small amount of time i'd take getting up and cuddleing my LO - even if there was nothing i could do - then let them cry for so long on their own. DH has made a good point in the past "every one wants their kids to grow up so fast yet they complain when they do" no medical 'expert' would EVER be able to over ride my mummy intuition. they are my babies, not a number, not a study but my baby. its one thing to take a few moments to get to your child (IE shower!) but tis another thing to leave them to cry/scream for so long, maybe these "experts" need the shoe on the other foot - we'll lock them in a room on their own for 7 hours (or until THEY throw up :rolleyes: )and see how they cope and repeat until they feel like a young, defenceless baby feels. im fairly sure that we'd be arrested for false imprisonment!

OMG! Can you please tell that last mother to put in a formal complaint? Actually, the should all do so. These so called experts should have their licences revoked for giving that advice... I was terrified reading that post that the story would end even worse than it did. That is shocking. Don't these people realise that a child can die in that space of time?? And what's with this "don't go in no matter what". No one should ever say that. No matter how strict your routines, etc, there will always be situations where you HAVE to bend the rules (e.g. if the baby gets stuck in the cot or something).

Good point Starfish. how do they know that the poor bubba's arm wasn't stuck or that they had the sheets over their head or something? it's horrible that vulnerable parents who are looking for support are given advice like that.

maybe this thread should come with a warning? i'm going to be thinking about that poor baby in a cot surrounded by poo and vomit all night now....

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As much as I dislike some forms of sleep training I am a big believer that if they are to be done they should be done in a supervised situation like a sleep school so things like this do not happen.

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Hun Torrens House is a sleep school.

One of the lovely ladies on here took her DD to sleep school before she was 2, and they tried to make her wean and all sorts of other things against the WHO code. It is disgusting what these places do. They should be encouraging mothers, not telling they are doing everything wrong.

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Hun Torrens House is a sleep school.

One of the lovely ladies on here took her DD to sleep school before she was 2, and they tried to make her wean and all sorts of other things against the WHO code. It is disgusting what these places do. They should be encouraging mothers, not telling they are doing everything wrong.

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Just wanted to say I actually went to Torrens house when DD was 10 weeks - they do not do crying it out at all and were actually fantastic for the feeding problems I was having with DD and they were incredibly supportive. I imagine some sleep schools are better than others

Ginger - have edited my first post and put a warning on it - do you think this will suffice?

wow now thats extreme

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Sorry Heaven and Boomba - it is distressing and wasn't my intention to just pass on the distress. Just wanted to make people aware that this advice is being given still. I agree wholeheartedly with all your comments and have also advised someone who works with the Infant Mental Health group of these examples - something should be done about these particular medical experts I think! I also agree that I could not let my baby cry for even 10 minutes without attending to her even if all the doctors in Australia told me too!

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Thats ok hun, I have heard lots of distressing stories just like this. I have had to actually not let myself read them etc as it has become really distressing...but oops read yours lol......I also had to remember I cant save every baby from having to cry themselves to sleep at night...i am not talking a grizzle I am talking full blown distress cry...cause it is just breaking my spirit and trust in human nature :(

:hug: x

That is exactly why I trust my intuition above someone wearing a white coat with an MD on the wall. What a hideous joke. Those poor babies..... the third scenario is just plain dangerous......:o

So glad the first 2 couples were not silly enough to follow the advice. I hope the last couple went back to tell the paed how they found their baby the next morning. These 'experts' all too often refuse to except personal experience or anecdotal evidence simply because their medical archives don't support that. The Lancet is not gospel!! :rolleyes:

this is shocking i cant believe that someone with a medical degree would say that is is fine for a child to be left for 7 hours. What i find even worse is that thoes parents stood by for 7 hours while their child was abviously hysterical. what parent in their right mind would leave a small child screaming for 7 hours? Sure the Drs have alot to answer for but for goodness sakes why do parents not think about these things. Anything could have happened to that poor little bub in that time... all for a good night sleep... i wonder how well they would have slept for the rest of their lives if something had of happened. I dont understand why people dont trust their instincts....

I know we all need to support each other as Mum's but at the end of the day.... it's not only that 'health expert' that gave that Mum (last story) bad, horrible advice fault.... but also the parents of that baby need to take responsibility there for what happened also.
SURELY they knew within their hearts that they were doing the wrong thing by their baby and that there HAD to be another way? A better way? :shakehead: just upsets me that so many parents actually believe and follow what they are told instead of seeking other help!

Boomba - you worded that well babe. When you said "when did our babies become such an inconvenience....." etc.... well said. :clap:

7 Hours !!!!??????????????? OMG I used to get stressed after 7 mins if I had to leave DS to cry to take a break from it in the early days!!!

With DS I refused to listen to any advice (professional or otherwise) about sleeping/crying it out, etc.....I would nod and smile but walk away from people thinking, no way will I take your advice, it was rocking to sleep for us !!

Poor poor bub :(

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Ginger - have edited my first post and put a warning on it - do you think this will suffice?

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yes thank you for doing that hun :)

That is too awful for words. That poor baby! I can't believe that any 'professional' would advise a parent to do that! Neglect is a form of abuse - I'd say leaving a baby all alone crying and screaming for 7 hours constitutes as neglect!

I wish all parents were aware that they don't have to CIO or use CC! It makes me so sad to think of all those babies out there left alone in the dark in their cots with no one to cuddle them :cry:.

I feel really sorry for all the parents (and of course the babies) in the three examples, but especially in number 3.

I have been asked by a maternal health nurse why I did not follow my intuition about my DS when we were having issues, and it was for the simple reason that I was sooo tired, so stressed and distressed and was very much doubting my ability to be a mum and to do the 'right thing' as everything I tried was in my eyes 'failing' - an opinion which was reinforced by 'experts' every time they suggested I tried something else. So when given 'expert' advice (in my case that my DS did not have ezcema, when he did), I followed it as I had not self confidence in my ability to make rational or good decisions when it came to my baby. So I guess I look at it from that situation and think that if the couple in point three were at the same point that I was, they might have followed the advice because they had no confidence in their ability to make good decisions. In society in general we reinforce this all the time - we often seek out, and are encouraged to seek out, 'experts' to tell us what to do. The really sad thing is, that this experience could have just reinforced the parents belief that they were not doing a good job eg 'OMG we did not even know that something was wrong, or if we suspected, we did nothing' - so now it is possible that these parents dont trust their own intuition BUT now also have no trust in experts - where can they turn to if they need help?? I really hope that this is not the case, but I guess it is just another perspective.

So yep, I can sit back and say that they should have gone in and checked on the baby, but I can also identify with why they did not. Big hugs to them and I really hope that they are doing ok, because they will live with, and cry over, the image of how they found their little baby for a long long time.

FG

Farmgirl I agree. It's one thing to criticise the parents but if thier baby isn't sleeping great them most likely sleep deprivation plays a large part in assessing the situation. It does mess up your judgement! They should have been able to trust the "expert" but instead the expert pointed them in the wrong direction. I really feel for them!

OMG that is just horrible :(

A friend went to Torrens House and got similar advice, she chose to just keep going with the co-sleeping and doing it their way.

That last story was just horrific, I could not have done it, I feel so sorry for the parents, they must have felt absolutely horrible at the end of the seven hours :( and felt that they had to listen to the Paed's advice :(

DD didn't sleep through until well after 13 months, and I think that is pretty normal TBH.... there is no way I could have left her for any length of time compariable in those stories :(

Telling parents that it is completely fine to allow a child to get so upset that they vomit is just OTT!!! :cry:

farmgirl: i can understand the sleep deprivation part. but you'd think an 'expert' would know that a child screaming for 7 hours would = possable averion to sleeping in the cot?

i was thinking about this some more and i remembered when my MG used to meet and one of the mums did the whole "sleep school" thing as her DS wasnt sleeping "twelve hours strait" as 7 months :( and she said she WATCHED a little girl get put down, then this little girl got so upset she threw up and the nurse came and changed her sheets and put her back down. now repeat twice more before the little girl 'went to sleep' :cry: this little girl would have been 18months old... for me i find that people around my age dont seem to understand that its 'normal' for babies not to sleep though (EG 12 hrs) until after a year old. and even then its a stretch. i know my next bubba will be treated as DJ was (and still is!) with sleep. if it happens it happens if it doesn't it doesn't. or if its co-sleeping with the whole family so be it. they're only little for so long before they want to go to bed on their own...

Just my thoughts here FWIW...I'm well aware that a sleep deprived mum out there may want to slap me LOL

You go to a dr because there is something wrong right? These sleep drs only exist because people think there is something wrong because their baby won't sleep for long periods at night. IMO until society in general stops perpetuating the myth that babies should sleep for 12 hours straight from 1 month of age then not much will change :( and parents in a fog of sleeplessness will feel like they are doing something wrong and that their baby has a "problem" when they aren't and he/she in fact doesn't. Too often motherhood is made out to be Huggies and J&J moments, and whilst it is at times, it is damn hard work too. I wish someone had told me that before my 1st, although I probably wouldn't have believed them ;)

I'm a lot more relaxed about it and more self confident 2nd time around, and don't have many anxious moments at all about how badly my bub sleeps, she woke up 5 times last night :o But having said that, we cosleep to maximise my rest and I can usually catch a bit of shut eye during the day too - don't know what I'd do if I couldn't....

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Just wanted to say I actually went to Torrens house when DD was 10 weeks - they do not do crying it out at all and were actually fantastic for the feeding problems I was having with DD and they were incredibly supportive. I imagine some sleep schools are better than others

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I want to say that I too went to a 'sleep school', not so that my DD would sleep for x amount of hrs per night - there were many reasons we went. I agree with babymiracles that some would be better than others. For example my gf went to Tweedle following advice from her SIL. My gf daugther was constipated & was struggling to do # 2. Finally she did when she was in her cot for her night sleep and the poo was hard & the size of a golfball. Her DD was distressed & the nurse(?) told me gf to change her daughter in her cot & then put her back to bed so she knew it was bedtime.... needless to say my gf checked herself out the next day. The one I went to WAS NOT like that at all.

I also agree with Farmgirls post - I think she made a good point. Some parents must be so low, sleep deprived - whatever & are looking for support / a 'solution' and turn to 'experts'. I certainly DO NOT agree with the advice that was given by these 'experts' but I can see why the parents may have thought to follow the advice given

I have even been told by two gf to do CC/CIO & I won't & my DD is nearly 3 and doesn't sleep through the night all the time. I will admit that I have listened on the monitor to my DD cry/winge and waited to see if she will settle - I don't rush to her straight away (not sure if that is considered CIO/CC)