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I'm inviting the other Pagan members to come in and share their viewpoint on grief and the whole 'why does it happen?'.
I think in light of recent events it's an emotive topic and one we may feel the need to 'get off our chest'.
:grouphug: to all who are feeling grief right now.
Subbing.. I will be back soon to post
xoxo :grouphug:
for me...i feel the initial shock and saddness, and obviously feel like ****...
but when i start thinking about it from a pagan point of veiw, i start thinking about the cycles, the energies, and feel stronger from it. No energy can be destroyed...just refocused elsewhere, so for me someone isnt 'gone' they are just in a different place, and we give back what we take from the great mother, and it is all part of the cycle.
I dont feel that someone is dead and its forever and i will never see them again....i feel i will, i feel they just need to travel down a different path for a while that i cant get on...but oneday our roads will meet again.
thinking like this fills me with peace, dont get me wrong, i still feel sad and still miss them, and wish that it wouldnt happen right now, but at a different time, but that is something i have no control over, and for me, if i have no control it is pointless to dwell on it.
I agree Tei. People live on in all of us as we're all connected to the universal energy. I get comfort from that.
It's the missing bit that hurts the most. And it takes a fair bit to tap into that energy to 'feel' them again. Not everyone can do this and even if you can, it can take a lot of energy.
I've been thinking about this a lot.
I fully believe in the cycle of life. That once people have done what they were sent here to do or learn, then they go to the next stage, to contemplate the lessons they've learnt or taught in this lifetime before they begin their next turn on the wheel.
You miss the person like crazy, but I think my biggest comfort is that I know they're still around, that I can still talk to them, ask them for help or guidance, you may not get it in the same form you would have with them being on the earthly plane, but you still get it. It could be from the shape of a cloud (I've got a giggle happening here because I can imagine Lu doing rude cloud shapes to us all), a street sign that has a word in it to prompt you for the answer, all manner of things.
I've had a bit too much of the death thing in my life, have lost friends and family, but on the flip side of that, there have been some amazing births, children taking their first forays into the world on their own individual journeys.
Subbing cause I'm interested... although I wouldn't call myself pagan some of my beliefs have a somewhat pagan flavour... I'm of a mongrel spirituality I guess.
also interested in reading :)
Excellent thread! and just what I was looking for today. I wouldn't really call myself pagan, but I'm really interested in what you all have to say.
Thanks :)
Subbing will be back to post.
Glad you started this Nettie :)
I agree with Sop. They are still around, even if not physically. And yeah you miss them like crazy but I just have to trust in the universe that these things happen and there is a lesson to be learnt from it all. For eg what's happened recently has taught me I need to reconnect with my friends, even here on BB. I've not been on here much in the last year or more and I'm going to change that. I'm going to see friends more, and family. I'm also going to spend a lot more time with my kids. Take more photos. Because you never know what will happen tomorrow. You just have live in the now.
just subbing as I want to read not sure what I believe dont realy believe in the one one god bit but the universe as a whole
Yup yup, I agree with Tei, Nettie and Sop. I feel that their energy has moved onto a higher plain (so to speak) but that doesn't mean that they're not still with us, they always will be there, just.... different than before.
Argh I know what I wanna say but I can't find the words to explain it.
I honestly wish I could say that I was pagan, but truth is I don't know enough about it.
I believe that the energy/soul does not die, just because the physical does. I believe a body is just a "shell" so to speak. When this breaks down or can no longer serve its purpose the energy/soul is released back onto a higher plain of existance.
For most people I call this "Heaven" but its mainly so they feel more comfortable.
I also believe that they can come back for us to help us and guide us at different points. Almost like intuition, rather than being a "gut instinct" its more like a whisper in your head.
I also believe that, in the right circumstances, we can tap into the energy through different mediums.
For example, after a long time of wondering, I got myself an amethyst pendulum. I use it daily and I believe I connect with different spirit/energy's on different days.
I have no idea if this is down pagan lines or not TBH.
There have been some days when I am sure I have chatted with my little Niki and that has given me a lot of peace.
Anyways I am blabbering on.
Nae x x x
Glad you're all getting something out of the thread. It's just what I needed too Becstar :hug:
I find the Pagan way is generally whatever way you've decided for yourself (not being told by an 'authority') and what feels right and in tune with the cycles of nature (seasons, life/death/rebirth, dark/light, etc). So if you're nodding reading that, you're Pagan! :D All welcome here anyways...
Sopdet - I look forward to meeting you in person one day. Your post was exactly what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words! :hug:
I can already see the seeds of Lulu's flower begining to grow. She'd probably scoff at that :rofl: but I know what I mean and I'm sure some of you do too. :grouphug:
I can just imagine Lulu saying oh for f's sake can you get over it already!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Great thread Nettie...
My views resonate with Sopdets and Netties...
I personally believe this... That we come into this world with a contract - an agreement of what we will serve, what we will acheive, what we will learn, what we will teach. What we'll experience.
This is the cycle. So when we have fulfilled our contract it's time for our Earthly body to "die". But I also believe that we have a Karma - a karmic contract to fulfil. So every single person whom we've touched or interacted with helped to fulfil that contract. So we all agreed to this before we incarnated in this lifetime.
So if we take it to Lucy & my personal beliefs which are only my own & not right or wrong! Lucy came in with a contract and she had fulfilled that & her body died. Before her incarnation she agreed to what she lived. Her children agreed in their incarnation to suffer the loss of her. Her own mother the same. Not because we all want pain but as spiritual beings we are aware from deep pain comes our most perfect wisdom.
So we all contracted - group karma to share parts of our lives together.
I believe when someone dies there is a time when they are very close -soon after death. Where they kinda make sure that all is okay - perhaps they help to direct the way things happen, inspire the ones left behind to do what needs to be done with spiritual wisdom that they can tap into because they are closer to Source when they don't have a body...
I could go on and on but that is my belief... xxx
Inanna almost perfectly said my beliefs. While I have a mongrel spirituality too with a combination of ethos, the loss of Greg has increased my beliefs and faith. I believe there is more to this earth than the earthly form. That a spirit / soul has a journey they must fulfil that is preordained before birth. I believe that your close networks are always with you throughout your lives but vary in role and function.
I believe there is a purpose for everything and a time for everything. It was Greg's time to go. I wasn't happy about it and neither was he but the contract he had was completed. His journey was over. Mine has only just begun.
But next time around - can someone slap me up the side of the head with a wet fish if I so much as suggest I achieve so many soul lessons in a lifetime :)
Well, that's pretty close to how I would say it.:
I have read this somewhere before, and it is one of those ideas that resonated with me. I have taken it on as part of my mixed bag of beliefs.:
What do I think.... all kinds of things.... I had an argument with a friend of mine, years ago, after losing (another) dear friend; I said that I thought really grief was a selfish kind of emotion, that the soul that has moved on is in a better place, on a higher plane, and just where they are meant to be. our grief is all about our loss; our missing them. She thought I was saying that it was ok that they had died, and I said no that's not what I meant... but then again, it is part of life & death & the whole circle,and I DO believe that the soul who has departed is much better off than those of us who are left behind.
ETA - I truly hope that's not offensive to anyone here, and I hope I've explained it properly :hug:
In working with energy... for me, it supports the idea of a soul that moves on after the physical death.. that energy doesn't just cease to exist. It's still there.
That might just make me pagan ;):
I find the Pagan way is generally whatever way you've decided for yourself (not being told by an 'authority') and what feels right and in tune with the cycles of nature (seasons, life/death/rebirth, dark/light, etc). So if you're nodding reading that, you're Pagan!
Or just be like me - a neo-pagan ;):
Fleur I wanted to say I LOVED "mongrel spirituality"! You really caused me to laugh!
I feel that grief is our sadness - that is pretty normal & healthy. But the one that has passed over - well he/she can also in the time after death cause us to recieve messages/ synchronicities that enlighten us or open us up to our own spirituality/spiritual world...
Great thread Nettie...xxx
I wanted to add to what I said earlier... that I have a really hard time reconciling what I know / believe, and what I feel. In my head I might be logically thingking "it's ok, they are in a better place" but my heart is hurting and the pain is like nothing else.
But I too think that is normal... we are living human lives here on earth, grief is a human emotion. Where I am right now it's asking too much to not be sad when we lose someone.
My mother lost her partner when I was 10. For a month or so after I used to 'pray' and talk to him (not having a better word for it at the time) and I have done so with others I have lost who have been close to me. I do feel them, their presence, for some time afterwards. I think this might be a case of them helping our transition - helping us to adjust to a world without them.
I agree Fleur - I think grief is all about us missing the person who has passed and not about our fear for where they are or are going.
I also talk to those that have passed. Just last night I felt my Mum touch my hair like she used to when I was a child. That helped me a lot.
I too would described my beliefs as mongrel spirituality (hope the pagans don't mind us crashing thier party :D ) and believe in the cycle of life.
Fluer... this is what I am having trouble reconciling within myself. I know they are in a better place, I know that they aren' feeling pain. It is my sadness... my loss... and in some ways it is selfish in that it is all about us. It causes us to all sorts of things that we wouldn't normaly do. I still feel that grief, I am still missing her (and others that I have lost) and it is all so raw. A classic case of the heart and head not being on the same page.:
I know I will meet her again. I gain strength from that. Damn these human emotions... anyone would think we were having a human experince :D
OK going to stop there as I am now officially rambling.
to add to what ive said.... when i say someones path has taken them somewhere that doesnt involve me, i dont think of it as a 'higher plane'
Higher plane of exsistance doesnt sit well with me...sure if someone is a great person they desearve to go to one...but i dont know...i just dont feel comfortable thinking of it like that...makes me uneasy in the stomach. they are just somewhere different to me/us. not better or worse...just different.
I probably didn't explain it very well, and even now I can't think of any way to put it - I don't mean a higher plain as if they are sitting on top of a cloud in heaven looking down on us.. more like ... I dunno.. like a different dimension? Is that a better way of explaining it? Argh I suck at explaining this stuff and what I mean.:
Higher plane (to me) just means the soul is at a different place, unencumbered by human frailties. They are without hate, jealousy, fear. They are in a higher plane, surrounding us with love. Not in the sense of heaven and hell where the good go one way and the bad go another. I guess just surrounding us, not tied to the earthly plane.
Probably as clear as mud :lol:
Geez Michelle that makes more sense to me than my own response does.. LOL
Thanks Mel :D At least I know it makes sense to someone besides me!!
Fab thoughts being put out there, as usual!
For me personally...
... It IS ok people die. It is totally normal, natural, and part of the wonder that is life and the universe. We just don't get brought in on the schedule.
It IS ok that people leave us physically, because it gives us the chance to see past the everyday and actually find the meaning in their relationship or presence in our life. It comes down to one basic belief for me:
Everything happens exactly as and when it is supposed to.
Not to say everything is predetermined, or destined, or that we have no control. Quite the opposite.
Every action in our lives and every interaction with another's choices in their lives, leads us t exactly where we are at any given time. As it should be. There is no such thing as "not his time to go" because otherwise he wouldn't have gone. ITMS.
Death seems to be a recurring theme in my household at the moment.
Charlotte was fully aware of the situation from the time my mum got sick, she was 9 months old. We told her the truth in ways we hoped she would understand, there was no lying or bad metaphors. Grandma Jeanny was sick, she would die and we wouldn't be able to see her anymore. She knows what death is, loves to collect the random dead bugs and moths from the house (lol tripper). But the last few months it ha become obvious that she is now processing how death is affecting her life, and what it actually is.
There have been many questions, on a daily basis, about 'mummy's mum' and daddy's dad', both of whom has died, only she never met Grandpa Maurice.
Anyway, I think it has been a learning curve for me too - having to explain things to her, and watching her young brain process the answers and try to apply them in some sensical fashion to her own understanding. It has also meant that I have had to think about it a lot, confront what exactly death means to me and how I want to teach her about it.
As for what happens when one dies... who knows. I believe in reincarnation, I believe in similar to Inanna, in that we are here to learn lessons or to teach them. I believe that once we have done that, our purpose is to move on to the next, sometimes that means leaving to have the chance to become something/someone somewhere new... Where that is or how it occurs, I will not pretend to comprehend.
I know it makes sense to me and keeps me at peace to know that (in this particular situation) Lu brought so much joy, light and love to one corner of the world. I know that people are better for knowing her, the world is richer for having her in it, and that is what we grieve for. Grief IS a selfish emotion. Totally. But a necessary step sometimes to coming to the realisation of what that person brought to our lives and how to make sure we can pass that on in our own lives, to those around us. Grief is the tool through which we will learn to keep one's memory alive by keeping their lessons alive. By actually learning them, living them.
I realised yesterday that the joy is still there. Just I realised it after my mum died. The birds still sang, the sun shone and the trees still glowed with beautiful energy. There is a fabulous chapter about how to recharge your energy without stealing it from others in The Celestine Prophecy... Whenever you are feeling dull, or miserable, go and find a tree. Any tree, but sit and look at it. Focus on it, give it the last of your energy and bask in its beauty. Soon you will be able to feel the renewed energy coming back to you through the ground, up through your feet and all around you...
Joy never leaves, sometimes you just have trouble seeing it through the dross, but once you focus on it, it will make all around you glow.
It is ok that people die. It is ok.
What a fabulous post Limey! :hug:
There isn't anything that doesn't go "bing" for me!
Also grief that is felt now can also touch on grief from the past - and grief isn't necessarily caused just by death as we all know. How people process grief can tell us a lot about how one processes or deals with life.
Some people get really sad and depressive, some get angry, some seek understanding, some really need to connect with others- all are "normal" (oh how I dislike that word "normal" lol).
But like you Lime I also like to focus on the positives of the loss. The way that the loss of a friend/relative/lover/neighbour/etc really highlights what's important in your own life. For me it's feeling the sun on my shoulders, birds, kids laughing, the sea - just seeing the love that is outpoured. It's impossible to be angry & so much understanding is shown by people who we wouldn't normally touch or be touched by! That's the gift.
I agree that it's only us that feel we've been "robbed" of that person that are sad & in that way I guess it's selfish...
I seem to be having issues getting my point across today - that or people everywhere are being overly sensitive and taking offence to everything lol
So I just wanted to add to my above post that "selfish" doesn't mean "bad"...
I think in our society we are taught that being selfish is bad or wrong, something we don't wish to aspire to. However, I would like to use the word for itself, not for it often misused assumption that those who doing something selfishly are bad...
Just want to clear that up so I don't upset anyone. "Selfish" is simply self-serving, self-oriented... about ones self, with no regard for anyone else.
And when applied to grief, then it is not bad or wrong to be selfish, it is so so personal a thing to experience.
As I said, I think it is selfish, but that isn't bad, and nor does it mean it isn't natural or necessary. It is not something to be stifled or hidden.
I totally got that. I am also in the same position as you - so I'm hearing you baby! - it's my thought that people are probably just feeling really really sensitive right now & that's also okay. Things are pretty tough & some people deal with it in ways that maybe others wouldn't and that's where the sensitivity comes in...
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yeah that ^^^
LIMESLICE ~ I need to spread some love around before I can give you more reps but that monster post you did finishing with the Celestine Prophecy quote......... BEAUTIFUL :hug:
To me - 'higher plane' means to progress or move on in the cycle of reincarnation or karmic evolution. Not to go up.. just on. Does that make sense??:
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:yeahthat: to both... not literally higher...same as your higher self.:
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I gotcha :) and I think the argument with my friend years ago was caused by a similar misunderstanding. I think I used the word selfish earlier...and then worried I may have offended. But it is exactly what you said - it just means it's about YOU & how you feel, not the soul who has departed. And it's not bad at all. I would like to think that when I go, I will be missed enough for people to be a bit selfish & sad for themsleves.
All this makes so much sense to me and I felt so guilty for being selfish and feeling MY loss, but I guess that's a natural reaction.
What doesn't sit right with me is that lulu was done here, I just can't believe that. I feel she was take. too soon from her children. She worked long and hard with cyclone especially and I just can't see her feeling done.
Am I the only one feeling this?
I know what you mean becstar... I have been thinking of her kids too, especially Cyclone, doesn't seem like she would be finished.
But if you believe (as Inanna and a few others have said) that we all have a contract when we come here - well what we learn, and what we suffer is part of that as well as what we do & teach.
It's like the idea that we choose our parents, we choose our life lessons.... boy do some of us choose some tough stuff! - then her children have chosen (before they came earthside) to suffer that loss.
Never mind all that, my heart still breaks for them. As an adult, when I suffer I can take some comfort in knowing that it is as it should be, and I have chosen to walk this path, but man it's hard when it's kids that are hurting.
Yeah, I understand.....that's just the part that doesn't sit right with my belief YK? ;)
And yes, it's the kids that are breaking my heart, we all miss Lulu but we are adults, we put on our big girl undies and get on with it knowing our lives are richer for knowing her. But the kids.........oh the kids :,( Betty and Cyclone especially. Cyclone will feel it SO much, and just when he was getting into a good place in life :( That kills me and right now I don't find any comfort in any belief.
I know I will eventually, and in the ME section of how I'm feeling I'm feeling ok. I'm feeling Lu has given me all she could give, I doubt I gave much to her though :( I know the lesson I was to get from her, and really she can only flog a dead horse so many times ;)
Thanks ladies this thread has been great :)
argh dammit... I take it all back .... it's not fair, not fair, not fair :( :( :(
I agree with that so much...and even if your choices lead you in the other direction, something will bring you back around to where it should be. and its up to us whether we take thedirect 'easy' route or the longer possibly harder one and learn more from it.:
in the end, everything works out - that is in the long run, things always work out. I applied to be a midwife the year before, but didnt get in, it was heart breaking and tore my soul, and in the short term i thought everything was messed up and would never work out. But I did get in the next year, and am now a midwife. plus that year of limbo i was in saw me go over seas for a holiday, and it saw me move to atown i had never heard of and meet DH. it all workd out, we were where we were ment to be, and even better for it.
ps I read "selfish" as "personal" no offence at all! it is a human emotion, and it is required for us to process and work through our thoughts and feelings regarding a loss or change. not just with death, but anything that makes us question.