Me again

You must be getting sick of us!

OK, so DS now no longer wakes up in hunger every hour.

He just wakes up every couple of hours and won't feed back to sleep. He won't go back to sleep. He wants to sleep, but won't. I end up walking up and down and up and down the hall with him until he's asleep, then we may get another hour until he's awake again. Refusing to feed, refusing to stay asleep.

I have some options.

First, the Dr Seuss CD keeps him asleep in the car. Do I just have my nights with The Cat in the Hat and others playing all night to make DS sleep? Sadly, he clocks on to sleep props and they stop working very soon, so that would stop car sleeps. And I don't want a CD on loop all night for the next few years.

Second, he will go back to sleep in his chair if I rock it (he won't sleep in his bed if I rock it). Should I just let him sleep in his chair?

Third, do I just hope he'll get over it and accept the fact that I will never sleep again?

Fourth, could he be too cold? Whilst I am happy sleeping in just underwear and a blanket right now, maybe DS is too cold in a bodysuit and a sleeping bag? Should I put him back in a sleepsuit? But that would roast him. Then again, I get cold at 5am, but that's because I'm not under my blanket! I do put a small sheet over him so his little arms don't get cold, but that doesn't seem to work.

Any hints or tips appreciated.

Ryn,

If he likes sleeping in the chair, let him. When Lelani came home, she slept in her carseat through the whole day. I only laid her down at night. She still sleeps in the seat sometimes. I don't think it matter where he sleeps, maybe he gets a little reflux and sitting up helps. As for Dr Seuss. I think maybe try for a night. If it works, great, you got one night's sleep, if not, try something els.

Stay strong, one day he will be 18, THEN you can sleep late and stay in bed the whole time!!!!!

I got this off the internet for you. I have a book that says the amout of blankets that should be ok for the temp of the night, but I lend it to a friend and I can't call her now (her bub has just come home, I don't bother new moms) This was the nearest I could find. Hope it helps.

Managing your baby's temperature
Babies are unable to regulate their body temperature in the way adults do. When adults are cold they shiver, and when hot, they sweat. It is important to keep your baby neither to hot nor to cold. The following suggestions are given to help you keep your baby's temperature within the normal range (36.6oC to 37.2oC):

Try to keep the room temperature between 16-20oC - this temperature is comfortable for most adults wearing short sleeves.
Use the right amount of clothing and bedding - during the day your baby should wear the same amount of clothes as you wear plus an extra layer. For example if you are wearing a shirt, baby should wear a babygro or t-shirt or dress plus a cardigan. Babies should wear hats in summer to stop them becoming sunburnt and in winter to stop then getting cold. At night babies should wear a nappy, vest and babygro or gown plus a sheet and couple of blankets. If the room is cooler than 16oC then 3-4 blankets will be necessary; if the room is warmer than 20oC then only 1 blanket or perhaps only a sheet will be needed.
If your baby seems restless or fussy and his skin is flushed and feels hot, remove a piece of clothing or blanket. It is normal for babies to have cool hands and feet but if they feel cold and look blue and blotchy, add mittens, socks/bootees, a hat and a cardigan or blanket. Remember to take off baby's outdoor clothes when you get inside.
A hot water bottle can be used to warm a bed but babies should not be placed next to the bottle. The cot, pram (buggy) or car seat should not be next to a radiator, heater or fire, in direct sunshine or near to draughts - for example an open window.. Remember, babies who are swaddled in a heated car can easily become overheated. Never leave your baby in the car without you being there.
Before bathing your baby, make sure the room is warm and that doors and windows are shut.

Hi Ryn,
Sorry, I may have missed this, but have you ruled out co-sleeping? Just that this will regulate body temperature and eliminate being cold as a problem.
Also, it is not recommended to leave babies in their capsules or carseats when they're not actually going anywhere in the car. I know that I will leave DS sleeping from time to time if we get home and he's fallen asleep, but he's a bit older now and his chest cavity is more mature. The reasoning is that the angle that the seat puts the baby's middle in compromises their breathing. It was a recent study that suggested this. I know, they can be at their most peaceful when sleeping in the carseat! However, DS has never stayed asleep when trying to move him in the carseat, but he HAS stayed asleep after getting him out of it and into the house and into bed.
None of this probably helps - sorry!

Ta Nadine.

DS can sweat, I have seen him do it (when feeding him near the window)! And I though current guidelines were after the first month to dress baby as yourself? I may be mistaken though. His core body temperature is fine when he wakes; I do check that.

DS does have a little reflux, or rather did, he is over that now. And he has done 7 hours in bed before, just not for over a month now.

I just don't really want to create props I don't want - I'm OK for a soft toy or blanket, but a CD on all night is not desirable. DS sleeps in his chair in the day (and part of last night) but he needs to sleep in a bed some time, I don't want this to be a trauma. Which is why I'm agonising about it, I suppose.

Mayaness, once DS is awake and I'm in bed we do co-sleep. He still won't sleep. His chair isn't a carseat - although I do let him stay asleep if he falls asleep in the carseat or pushchair as his day sleeps are so short, he's always awake within half an hour of coming home.

i have my own issuses with sleep and my baby...

i dont have any answers.. if i did i would get a full nights

just saying i feel for you .. and hope it gets better !!

hugs

Ryn,

I have seen Lelani sweat also. It's actually cute! I am the last to question current guidelines. Mine was prem and she was permenatly "over-dressed" I was so afraid that she would lose weight, because her unhandy mother did not keep her warm enough. But she is her daddy's daugher and heats up very quickly. But beside the point.

I don't know his history and are not his mother, but maybe it is time to step back. Maybe you need to re-think your situation and his routine and his feeds and EVERYTHING. Maybe there is something that bothers him that you are missing, because you are focused on him not sleeping. Could be anything under the sun. How is he sleeping during the day? He's not on owl-mode? (Sleeping in the day and playing at night) Getting that right is a whole other storie (or so I hear - luck not to have happend to me) Yeez, it sounds like I am a know-it-all. I am a first mom also and are the last person to ask, but it's just my opinion.

I hope you get it sorted (hugs)

When referring to his chair, is it a bouncer or something similar? If it's something like that, then I say let him sleep there. Nina went through a stage of only sleeping in her bouncer. I would strap her in, bring her into our room so she was right next to me, and we'd all get decent amount of sleep for the night.
How much sleep is he having during the day? Is there anything that has thrown his night time routine out lately? And the famous one, is he teething?
It is possible he's not comfortable in the clothing (ie too cold or hot). We dress Nina in a singlet, wondersuit & sleeping bag, whereas we're only sleeping in t-shirt & undies. If I dress her in any less, then she feels cold and has a terrible night sleep.
Is there any other comforters he likes apart from the music? Or how about only having the music on for the first hour, just to get him past the first sleep cycle?

Thanks for the encouragement, Lea!

Nadine, I really do welcome all suggestions, but I have been trying EVERYTHING. He is in a fairly decent daily routine. He has 2-3 naps during the day, albeit short naps. I have tried understimulating, overstimulating, attending him only when he cries, filling our day with outdoors activities, having toy-free days (luckily I know loads of stories!), not letting him have any sleep during the day, not letting him feed save for 4 hour intervals, not letting him feed all morning so he gets used to hunger, feeding every 1-2 hours... and some normal days too (we tend to do a week or normal days then a couple of days of something new). I also let him fuss in his crib, he has to be crying before I'll go grab him because he does sometimes go back to sleep. I'm just at the end of my tether!

Hey Ryn

I am the last person to ask but at the moment I am also stuck for an answer - now DD is waking from midnight to 3 am and will not go back to sleep - doesn't want feeding, nappy change, etc, etc....and when I get her back to sleep will only sleep for an hour or two at most.....so.....like Nadine says - look at a few different things - day routine - does he need to decrease his sleeps from maybe 2 to 1 during the day, how is solid intake going during the day - someone suggested to me - porridge after DD's veges and meat for her dinner....just to give her some carbs to maybe fill her up a bit more....ummm...let me have a think and if I come up with anything that works for DD I will let you know too. If someone said to me when I was pregnant I would still have a baby who didn't sleep through the night at 11 months I would never have believed them...thank goodness for coffee:)
Laurin :)

Jodi, it is one of those bouncing chair dudes.

His morning sleeps are variable, but he usually gets 3 hours or so sleep during the day, usually short sleep in the morning, longish at noon and short nap in the afternoon. However, if we have Dr Seuss on he'll sleep for hours and hours in the car. Music, like special baby classical or lullabies, won't cut it, it has to be the Dr Seuss.

He has a soft bunny to take to bed, he also has a rattley elephant in his bed and he does love them both. He will sleep past the first sleep cycle anyway, but wakes up usually just before I want to go to bed, irrespective of if I want an early or late night! He has just cut a tooth, but tbh he's been teething since 8w so I'm soooo over blaming teething for poor sleep.

All the mother and baby (or just coffee) groups have shut down for summer, it could be that, but I do make sure I take him out at those times anyway.

I'm sorry Ryn. I can't think of anything els to say. Is his nose open?

Laurin, we are even trying hungry baby formula at night to sort his tum! I make sure he has carbs for dinner too (baby rice or potato with his fruit and veg).

mmm - so it doesn't sound like it is a hunger thing - and probably he is so overtired that he can't go back to sleep....I think we both need a magic wand!

Sorry bout that, Ryn, the carseat thing was more for the poster who mentioned it. But, as I said, I did it sometimes, myself, cos I knew it didn't happen often and I would check on him all the time. I'd let him sleep in the bouncer if he's happy there - at least they cradle the bum softer than a 'seat', where there is more compaction of the vulnerable spine.
I may have also missed this, but do you have a soft cloth sling? I used to (ha! still do!) get DS to sleep in the sling, and when he was 'convincingly asleep', I'd transfer him to the bed next to me.
Getting DS to sleep requires sling time and a couple of boobie feeds (usually in the sling), but once he's asleep from that, he's out (unless he's sick).
Like someone else said - maybe this requires going back to basics. We did that a few times, each time that DS's patterns changed.
The sling has been our saving grace, though. We used a HAB and now an Ergo, but sometimes a shoulder slilng.
ETA: The sling also keeps baby so close to you that warmth will not be an issue :)

I know this tune only too well, you poor chook.

Mitchell was the worst sleeper and the most unsettled baby in the world. Always had to be held, only slept an hour and a half MAX for months - failed sleep school miserably. He was an extreme case - but I learnt some things along the way.
The first of which is to take care of you. Everything seems soooooooo much worse when you are sleep deprived. DH will have to take him off your hands for a few hours at least on the weekend. I know he can be precious about his bloody 'me' time, but he has to take care of you so you can remain partially sane.
Don't count the hours you haven't slept, count the ones you have!
Mitchell clicked onto any sleep routine vey quickly (and firmly put us back in our place), so I stopped bothering after awhile. The endless apparent teething/silent reflux/colic diagnoses were doing my head in,as was the endless stupid advice.

The best thing for my morale was my mum ringing up with stories about my cousin. My aunt can't believe he made it to 21, he never slept. Literally. At the very least I could imagine her trying to sleep on the couch with one foot rocking his pram, and not feel so bad.

Some babies just don't respond like others do, but it really, really can't last forever. Take care of you first though, make sure you eat properly as well. Have a nice long bath, DH can run it for you and stick all your fav smellies in there, you only need an hour or so to recharge.

You're not the only one!

I have a sling, but you cannot transfer DS out of it without it waking him any more. We did use to sling him to sleep, now we feed or walk him to sleep - and still sling him to sleep if it's not the nighttime.

Actually, next week DH isn't working, so he's going to do the nighttime, then I'm getting up with DS and taking him out all morning so DH gets some sleep then. Afternoon is family time, late evening couple time, then back to taking it in turns to sleep.

I tend to count sleep as any hours I'm not out of bed - so last night I got to sleep half an hour before walking DS to sleep, then 5 hours (as I got him back to sleep once without getting out of bed), then a one hour break where I was awake and slept almost 2 hours (on the sofa) before I got up again. While I am rested, I'm just not liking having to get out of my bed! And I was mad last night as DH was on the computer almost all night even though I ask him to come off once DS is in bed so we can do something together and I had to nag for that last night.

Actually, DH is better now - he doesn't nag me to do more housework and he did wash up his fishing/camping food stuff all by himself without me telling him there was no way I was washing that as it was a week old and mouldy. He's just not too keen on 1-1 with DS without me there to take DS should he wimper. (He gives me DS, I don't even stir from my coffee/book until DH tells me he can't "cope" with a bit of an upset.)

Lulu, what made things suddenly click for Mitchell?

hi Ryn, im so sorry that you are having sleep troubles, just want to let you know that DS had two periods of needing music all night and during the day to sleep, but they were only stages he grew out of them, so don't be afraid that you will have to have music all night forever. Goodluck!

:hug: Ryn, you're having such a touch time with sleeps.

I've nothing new to suggest. Possibly your DS is the model that sleeps through from 6 months (or 7, or 9). You've tried so much, this is NOT you or your parenting! He's just a wakeful little chap - he's smart like mumma and he doesn't want to miss anything.

Hang in there, this will pass eventually.

Bx

Thanks Ellissa and Bec.

I feel a bit ungrateful here as I am dismissing so many good ideas, but I have honestly tried them! Today we are trying the extra morning sleep route as DS is still tired and cranky. Although I suggested chair and CD, I really don't want to get DS into "bad" habits, but I think right now my priority has to be getting him to sleep more and then we'll change the undesirable elements.

Will have to rig up a load of plug extension cords so we can have the CD player plugged in ready for tonight when DS wakes up.

Ryn, I know you said you are against "props" but I am not sure why you would be anti a CD?

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a CD on all night is not desirable

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Dr Seuss, Peacebaby, Ac/Dc whatever, LOL......if it helps him get through the 40 minute cylcle?

Also, I know he is 6 months so not a tiny bub anymore, but if he is happy sleeping in the car or in a bouncer chair, it may be that he thrives on the motion.......so dare I suggest hiring a hammock for a few months to see if that can establish some longer sleep habits?

Also, is he in your room with you? Or a separate room? When you bring him into bed with you, is that when he starts waking on the hour? The only reason I ask is that all 3 of mine, by about 6 months, woke A LOT more regularly if they were in our room next to me........almost like they could smell the milk and thought "Umm, I'll just squark for a bit of a midnight feast"

It makes me sound like a cold-hearted Mummy, but when I moved them into their own rooms, with a CD on repeat, in a hammock, their sleeps got magically long.........(no magic cure, obviously, but it worked for us............)

We used music for Jenna right from the beginning and it was brilliant. If anything its actually a signal to her now that its time for sleep.
So she can be running around like a madass toddler, I can put her in her room, turn her music on, shut her curtains and she knows its time for sleeping. Might not always work straight awya, but the signal is there.
How we brainwash these poor little things ;)

In fact - when we went on holiday a few months ago, and she needed naps when we were driving, she used to ask for her sleeping music when she got tired so she got to sleep. Luckily we got her weaned onto easylistening Enya and Secret Garden etc so it wasn't the bloody wiggles singing lullabies all the time ;)

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Luckily we got her weaned onto easylistening Enya and Secret Garden etc so it wasn't the bloody wiggles singing lullabies all the time

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LOL, I hear ya! (We weaned Olivia off Peacebaby onto Sarah McLoughlan, and Charlie is currently being weaned onto Paul Weller of all things!)

Hey Ryn, sorry can't really offer any real suggestions other than say I understand. Looks as though we have similar bubs. Sometimes it can be so hard, I found the constant worry about setting up bad habits just made things more stressful for me. I found at times that I just had to stop trying, get refreshed and start again. :hug:

I really can't remember Ryn! I just asked DP and we both can't put a finger on it, I just think he needed time to find his own way. He seemed a very windy baby, easily overstimulated and it seemed like something was stopping him from dropping off to sleep properly.

I think it began to clear up a bit when he was about 10 months old. I was very lucky as Dp was off work waiting for a knee reconstruction and I had paid mat leave for 6 months. So we were both at home during the worst of it. I escaped at home one stage to do TBS at Home once or twice a week during the evenings!

Actually, now I think about it, he settled a little at 4 months, was ok at 6 months, went through a terrible stage at 7 months (apparently a crap one for all babies), but evened out at 10 months, and seemed on par with the other bubs.

I wish I could give you an answer, but I didn't really get any myself. We just had to stick it out. We ended up having another since we were up all night anyway...... and she is a dream sleeper! I deserve it big time!

xoxoxoxo

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LOL, I hear ya! (We weaned Olivia off Peacebaby onto Sarah McLoughlan, and Charlie is currently being weaned onto Paul Weller of all things!)

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Roberts Miles, Enigma, UB40, Enya, James Blunt here depending on my mood and hers. Sometimes mixing it up seems to work. Sneaky sleep music.

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I feel a bit ungrateful here as I am dismissing so many good ideas, but I have honestly tried them

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You are NOT ungrateful Ryn! You need to parent according to your own values and standards (i too wouldn't want to use a lot of "props" she has her bedtime lamb and that's all) it's bad enough having to listen to "i told you so" from MIL/your mum/strangers without hearing yourself saying it to you in your head as well!

I realised after i answered you that when it comes to sleeping i am strict and relentless. During DD's 90 minute morning nap i usually shower, tidy, prepare lunch and surf about a bit. It is undivided "me" time. DD woke up 40 minutes early today but you know, i was busy tidying, and she was fine in her cot with a cup of water and her lamb and a toy seal, so i went in once, tucked her back in and told her it was naptime and then i ignored her. She didn't cry or sleep, just moaned a bit, sang a bit, whinged a bit, chatted a bit, off an on. Ultimately i went to get her when i was finished doing what i was doing. I am more comfortable with this than with living in a filthy house and never having a moment to myself.

Obviously your DS is a lot younger than DD and he might not be ready for this approach and would scream in distress, but i honestly think HALF of DD's cooperation is actually through lack of choice! LOL.

Anyway, i'm not sure what the point of that was except to say that even if i think DD naps and sticks to her routine etc. in part at least it's because i accept no alternative. You have tried everything Ryn, this is not something you're doing or not doing, it's just the way DS is right now.

:hug: hun, be gentle with yourself and grab your sleep when you can.

Bx

Lucy, I'm not anti-CD, just this particular one. Not only does it make me talk like a Dr Seuss book for the rest of the day (DH hates me wandering around saying "And now for a bit/Samuel will sit/He will sit for a bit/For a bit he will sit. My boy is so big, my boy is so clever/He can sit on his bum and fall over never." Or words to that effect). Anyway, not only that but there's the background music and sound effects, it's such a busy CD! I need to sleep too.

He is in my room, DH is in the nursery for now and I have tried sleeping in the sitting room, but he still wakes up. If the CD works he'll be swiftly moved to the nursery!

I am strict with sleeping - I don't care if it takes me two hours to get him back down (well, I do!), he knows that nighttime is NOT playtime. He sleeps at night and if he won't I will make him sleep. In the early morning, 6.30 onwards, he can stay awake and play quietly, but not shout or get up for the day until after 7am - unless he does poos, then we do get up a bit early. Day sleeps less so, but he doesn't like being awake without me around. Once DS is old enough to understand then he will be put to bed and told to close eyes. I'll read a story or sing a lullaby, but he must have closed eyes... I am not having any of this "can't sleep" malarky. Well, if DH and I make a lot of noise then that's justifiable.

OK, he's awake again, best be off!

Oh Ryn, you poor thing. I don't have anything more to suggest than anyone else's ideas here. Only thing that popped into mind was could you possibly be trying too many different things? Could that be unsettling him - trying one thing, then another?

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DD woke up 40 minutes early today but you know, i was busy tidying, and she was fine in her cot with a cup of water and her lamb and a toy seal, so i went in once, tucked her back in and told her it was naptime and then i ignored her. She didn't cry or sleep, just moaned a bit, sang a bit, whinged a bit, chatted a bit, off an on. Ultimately i went to get her when i was finished doing what i was doing. I am more comfortable with this than with living in a filthy house and never having a moment to myself.

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hehe - DS is in a normal bed, so just gets himself up.. but I don't have to worry about not getting the house clean just coz he woke up - he was doing all the vacuuming for me today, and got upset if I took it off him! LOL. (sorry - bit OT :) )

Keep on with the routine - even if it is 'looser' some days than others. The more Mitch slept - the more he slept. The overtired cycle was the hardest to break, but when it did - JOY!

i may have missed this ... please send daggers if i have...

go back to swaddling ... itried this on a winters day when ds was cranky and cold ... he slept for 3 hrs during the day ....

i wrap hime all the time when he gets whingy and wont settle... with in minutes he is asleep or if its not nap time .. he is more calm and much easier to handle

he is nearly 10 months and i will swaddle him till i cant find a big enough muslin!!!!

That's where my tack diverges wildly from yours! Completely disregard this if it really assaults your ideas, here's what I do with my child in my situation:
If DS won't go down, I let him go and play off some steam. I'd rather have the 'malarky' than spend two hours trying to get a non-sleepy child to sleep. Cos I could be doing things in that time! Granted, my child is now walking and can entertain himself better, but I did this from very early on. I wasn't going to be the bunny getting strung out pushing the proverbial uphill. My thinking was that whilst I know that this kid should be in bed, the kid had no such reasoning and was only going by what his body was telling him, which was invariably 'not tired yet'! I am the one who is capable of adjusting my habits around the kid, but I know that DS is not about to work around our expectations of him. He just won't, I know my kid - he is just way too engaged with his environment. Other kids are a lot more cooperative to their parents, from what my friends report (although, they also spend ages trying to get kids to sleep, so I don't know just how well their system works!). So, I work with him, instead of the other way around. My next kid might be very different.
DP was very skeptical of this for a long time and wondered why I wasn't trying to do what other parents try to do. He now sees that it would be futile and end up in us getting stressed that he's not comforming, and DS being upset because we're not listening to him.
Now that he's older, if he's not ready to sleep and I am completely at the end of my tether, I've lately taken to getting him ready for bed (with all the cues that it involves - changing into PJ's, turning lights down, putting sling on, feeding him in sling, putting 'night nappy' on etc), and lying him down next to me anyway. If he really doesn't want to be there, I let him go and I stay in bed! Now that he's more mobile, I figure that he knows where I am. If he really wants to play, he will. If he's just overtired (usually on a day when we've done heaps out of the house) he'll walk out of the room, down the hall, realise I'm not following, come back and ask to be helped into bed with me. Then he'll sleep.
So, whilst my whole spiel here seems to many people like I'm just letting him run riot, what I've been working up to all these months of his life is to recognise when he's had enough and when it's time for bed. Sure, mostly he needs help to get to sleep, but it's slowly starting to emerge that he can listen more to his body beyond just the 'hungry' or 'clingy' messages!
Sorry for the dissertation, but this is what I mean by getting back to basics. I mean letting go of 'norms' and getting back to listening to what your child is telling you, even if they don't see it.
Yep, I get comments from people who say "I wouldn't do that", and I think "well, that's fine, cos you don't have to, he's not your kid". If my ideas don't suit, ignore this whole post. You know for yourself what you are comfortable trying. I was comfortable to give it up to him to tell me what I needed to be doing. When I see that he is finally properly tired, I go through the cues again, and he gets his bearings again.
DP realises now that there is method to my madness. It doesn't have to be anarchy, it doesn't need to be highly regimented. Routine does not have to mean 'schedule'. One is flexible and quite portable, the other is not as easily taken on holiday or away for a couple of nights, and a change of environment can render a 'schedule' useless for a child.
Sorry, I really don't want this to sounds like a sermon!!
I thought it might be useful to read about someone else's experience, even if you adopt none of it. My way doesn't mean you lose control of anything, it just acknowledges that there are some things you don't control, you just work around it :)

Mayaness you make so much sense to me. I have a very alert 'i dont want to miss out on ANYTHING' four and a half month old... and after months of trying to get her to sleep, in particular longer than 45 minutes during the day, i am now - i don't want to say giving up - but i've just decided i am not going to be so obsessed with how much sleep she is (or isn't) getting... in the end it only stresses me out and i sort of think in the long run it is pointless. As long as she isn't an overtired ratty mess, I have started to get her up after 45 minutes of sleep and let her play, or i take her around the house with me while i get jobs done. Today i actually was able to weed the garden while she layed under a towel with no nappy on in her pram - AMAZING. Something I never would have been able to do normally, as I would be too busy inside getting her to stay asleep.

I have to shield my eyes when i read about how many hours a 4.5month old SHOULD be getting during the day, and cover my ears when the girls at mothers group talk about their babies having a regular 3 hour nap each day. It just isn't going to happen for my DD. She doesn't want to miss out on a thing and is a real live wire. So be it. I have completely given up any notion of a routine and just take each day as it comes and go with her flow. I am feeling like a better mum because of it too. Oh and the odd day she surprises me and sleeps for two hours without a peep, and I end up walking around the house not knowing what to do with myself, haha.

Anyways sorry to hijack the thread, just wanted to say that I like the sound of what you are doing and it makes so much sense to me.

LOL Emma - I sat through the Jennifer Keyte video during the mothers group sessions telling Oscar not to listen to the bit about going to bed awake! I was a bit cheeky and kept making the sound that the 'wrong answer buzzer' on Sale of the Century used to make everytime we 'failed' at a point being made about how you 'should' do things with your baby...bit norty...but luckily my health nurse knows me and what I do not want to hear, so she never lectured me at appointments.
My mothers group tends to look at me as if I'm an anarchist anyway, because I don't tie myself in knots about getting Oscar to sleep, weaning, self-settling etc.
You do what you gotta do, and the only person you owe any explanation to is your kidlet and yourself :) No-one else, in the end, matters as far as opinions and advice go.

Lea, I'm in the UK, day temps are about 30 degrees, swaddling him would just overheat him, but thanks for the suggestion. Actually, he would throw off a swaddle from birth so it may be dangerous to do that now.

Mayaness, if DS wants to play at 3am I am not happy to turn on the lights and let him play. Daytime sleeps are up to him and bedtime starts when he gives us sleepy cues (around the same time every night). I just won't let him have really broken sleep at night; if he's up at 3am I can have him asleep before 3.15, it's just keeping him asleep when I stop walking that takes the time. He refused to go back to sleep this morning after wanting to start the day at 5.20, so I did let him play until DH got up. I do listen to him and go by his cues in the day, but tbh he NEEDS to sleep at night and I will help him to do that. While I'm all for baby-lead parenting I am not for playing at stupid times when DS is tired and can't go back to sleep.

Emma, DS never did big naps either, I'd fret if he did more than 2 hours! He has done a few long ones, but they are very infrequent. And yes, I wonder what to do with myself too some of those times. It's more the night sleeps I worry about!

Anyway, last night. He didn't sleep through, but I didn't have to get out of bed in the small hours, so that's good. First wake-up was because of a dog barking outside, the other two he fed back to sleep. The early wake-up could have been cos he napped for a lot of yesterday morning, so this morning we are going to the park so he won't sleep quite so much.

for me, the night time wakings are an absolute killer.... sometimes i could be up 10 times a night, and combined with being unable to get back to sleep (ME!), it was absolutely doing my head in. sometimes i would just fall back to sleep when she would be wanting me again. A few weeks ago i started taking her to bed with me after her last feed for the night, anywhere between 10.30pm-1am.... it has pretty much solved most of my problems (except with my relationship with DP who doesn't sleep with us).... sometimes i have to sleep propped up holding her but at least i am in bed and it is warm and i can get back to sleep much easier than when i am lying in bed wondering how long before she is going to wake etc.

friends and family are always commenting on how i really should be persisting and trying to get her to sleep in her own cot, but i think why spend an hour or two trying to get her to go back to sleep, and then being up through the night, when i could just take her to bed with me. It works better for ME this way and means i get more sleep. I haven't actually tried to get her to sleep in her cot after the last feed in a while, so who knows, maybe she would, but it means i can't sleep as i am laying there wondering how long its going to last! haha.

im sure somebody somewhere along the lines may have suggested co-sleeping?? for me, i had to do it as i was getting no sleep and getting strung out. now i love it!

ooops just realised you are in summer, co-sleeping is definitely more of a winter solution i guess. nice and cosy and warm.

Hee hee, Ryn - part of my consequences-style teaching is NOT turning lights on! The other week Oscar got fidgety in the middle of the night (ok, so he wasn't feeling 100% and was all over the place), I let him slip off the bed (he gets off surfaces feet first, something we learned in swimming lessons) and walk down the hall...in the dark. Maybe you missed that nuance, but I don't indulge him when we're not in synch, I just work with it and remember the words of my wise friend, Bathsheba, who says "This too shall pass" (she's in my head, dammit!).
Because I'm studying, too, if he is up at a stupid hour (which is rarely anymore - hard to believe that my 'system' can reap rewards, but it does!), I let him play and I'll read my textbooks if I'm awake enough. But then again, I do know that if he goes to sleep later, he'll sleep in longer, which is not something many other children do.
Like I said, you do what you gotta do. I'm not saying you do what I do (I made that disclaimer right at the start of my post), I'm saying you do what you gotta do that's right for you and your child. Even if I DID think less of you because you don't do what I do, who cares? Does it affect your life and what you think of your child? I hope not! No-one here can tell you what you need to do, and if they try then they're kidding themselves. All we can do here is tell you what we do with our own children so that if anything resonates as a possibility for you, then you can try it on for size.
For instance, I could have taken offence to you calling the non-sleepiness a 'malarky', cos I just work with that scenario instead of resenting it. Likewise, you might take offence to me calling myself a 'bunny' for stressing out over a non-sleepy kid. Neither of us mean to judge, we're just putting our slant on these things :) Chicken, I understand your frustration - this part doesn't last forever. Please don't wish away this time, either - you wish away the good bits when you wish for the less savoury parts (not sleeping, not eating etc) to be gone.
You'll get there, you know you will!

Emma, I do co-sleep - like you, my DH has left the bed. We both want this to stop and him to be back.

Mayaness, if it were a case of DS playing quietly in the dark I wouln't mind. But he screams until the light goes on then a few minutes later is tired so wants either me to play with him or make him go back to sleep. As DH doesn't help much then I do need my nights just to be able to keep going after lunch, which is why it's an issue. I don't need much - I am all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed today after 7 hours with 2 wake-ups - but I do need not to get out of bed at night. I would love to be more baby-led, but DS hates going to sleep and hates being on his own, I need to play with him rather than him just playing alone. He'll be OK for a bit, but if I'm otherwise engaged he's upset.

And I'd be pretty daft to ask for advice then get offended by what was on offer!

Mayaness - we could be twins with our sleep 'methods'! LOL. We too don't spend hours trying to make DS sleep. If he's not sleepy, then he stays up. I too believe we've reaped rewards of this, for one, we haven't stressed about his 'bad' sleeping habits (yes we had bad weeks with teething etc - but yes, they too passed!).. and he's worked out his own sleep routine now, albeit a loose one, we pretty much have a routine now.. which is him coming to bed with us anytime between 9.30 & 10.30pm each night! It works well, we're all happy, DH gets time to play with him in the evenings after work (he'd never see him if I insisted on 7pm bedtime) and night wakings are becoming less frequent. We've always worked around DS. I think as a result he is actually very flexible.. and people comment on how quickly I can put him to sleep when we're out LOL. Sometimes I put him to bed in his own room (and he comes in to us in the dark if he wakes) sometimes I just bring him straight into bed from the outset. And yep, he'll sleep in if he's had a late one too. I think we're finding a nice balance of give & take in our sleeping relationship - I've never stressed him about sleeping, and he's quite compliant if we need to get up early some mornings, or if he gets to sleep in. Of course we have the odd overtired moments, but he gets over them.

I know a family that taught & fought their babies to sleep, and well, lets just say they've been fighting this battle for the last 12 years.

Ryn, I know it can feel like it will go forever, and I was seriously expecting to be nightfeeding 4hrly for 2 years the rate we were going! But things do smooth out and you find your groove with each other.

4 hourly... bliss! LOL. I am thinking that this is going to continue until he's old enough to understand "well when you're tired just close your eyes, screaming doesn't help!"

I think if he would go to sleep on his own, even with help, it would be different. But I have to fight him down even when he's so tired he is just crying all the time. He won't "cry it out" (not that I'd let him), he just hates sleeping. If it wasn't that I want to talk to DH at some point in the day I would look at letting DS stay up later, but he does thrive better on routine (just not sleep better LOL). He is happier when we have our routine, he learns more, talks more, just generally does more. I just can't keep up with entertaining my son all evening while DH plays on the computer, I want some relaxing me-time too!

(BTW, to get DH to do anything more than a 2-minute cuddle when he's had his tea after work, I have to put DS on the sofa, tell DH I need the loo or something similar and then say "oh, DS is about to crawl off the sofa, can you look after him?")