Me again

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Thanks Ellissa and Bec.

I feel a bit ungrateful here as I am dismissing so many good ideas, but I have honestly tried them! Today we are trying the extra morning sleep route as DS is still tired and cranky. Although I suggested chair and CD, I really don't want to get DS into "bad" habits, but I think right now my priority has to be getting him to sleep more and then we'll change the undesirable elements.

Will have to rig up a load of plug extension cords so we can have the CD player plugged in ready for tonight when DS wakes up.

[Lucy]

Ryn, I know you said you are against "props" but I am not sure why you would be anti a CD?

a CD on all night is not desirable

Dr Seuss, Peacebaby, Ac/Dc whatever, LOL......if it helps him get through the 40 minute cylcle?

Also, I know he is 6 months so not a tiny bub anymore, but if he is happy sleeping in the car or in a bouncer chair, it may be that he thrives on the motion.......so dare I suggest hiring a hammock for a few months to see if that can establish some longer sleep habits?

Also, is he in your room with you? Or a separate room? When you bring him into bed with you, is that when he starts waking on the hour? The only reason I ask is that all 3 of mine, by about 6 months, woke A LOT more regularly if they were in our room next to me........almost like they could smell the milk and thought "Umm, I'll just squark for a bit of a midnight feast"

It makes me sound like a cold-hearted Mummy, but when I moved them into their own rooms, with a CD on repeat, in a hammock, their sleeps got magically long.........(no magic cure, obviously, but it worked for us............)

[Fi]

We used music for Jenna right from the beginning and it was brilliant. If anything its actually a signal to her now that its time for sleep.
So she can be running around like a madass toddler, I can put her in her room, turn her music on, shut her curtains and she knows its time for sleeping. Might not always work straight awya, but the signal is there.
How we brainwash these poor little things

In fact - when we went on holiday a few months ago, and she needed naps when we were driving, she used to ask for her sleeping music when she got tired so she got to sleep. Luckily we got her weaned onto easylistening Enya and Secret Garden etc so it wasn't the bloody wiggles singing lullabies all the time

[Lucy]

Luckily we got her weaned onto easylistening Enya and Secret Garden etc so it wasn't the bloody wiggles singing lullabies all the time

LOL, I hear ya! (We weaned Olivia off Peacebaby onto Sarah McLoughlan, and Charlie is currently being weaned onto Paul Weller of all things!)

[Astrid]

Hey Ryn, sorry can't really offer any real suggestions other than say I understand. Looks as though we have similar bubs. Sometimes it can be so hard, I found the constant worry about setting up bad habits just made things more stressful for me. I found at times that I just had to stop trying, get refreshed and start again.

[Lulu]

I really can't remember Ryn! I just asked DP and we both can't put a finger on it, I just think he needed time to find his own way. He seemed a very windy baby, easily overstimulated and it seemed like something was stopping him from dropping off to sleep properly.

I think it began to clear up a bit when he was about 10 months old. I was very lucky as Dp was off work waiting for a knee reconstruction and I had paid mat leave for 6 months. So we were both at home during the worst of it. I escaped at home one stage to do TBS at Home once or twice a week during the evenings!

Actually, now I think about it, he settled a little at 4 months, was ok at 6 months, went through a terrible stage at 7 months (apparently a crap one for all babies), but evened out at 10 months, and seemed on par with the other bubs.

I wish I could give you an answer, but I didn't really get any myself. We just had to stick it out. We ended up having another since we were up all night anyway...... and she is a dream sleeper! I deserve it big time!

xoxoxoxo

[Astrid]

LOL, I hear ya! (We weaned Olivia off Peacebaby onto Sarah McLoughlan, and Charlie is currently being weaned onto Paul Weller of all things!)

Roberts Miles, Enigma, UB40, Enya, James Blunt here depending on my mood and hers. Sometimes mixing it up seems to work. Sneaky sleep music.

[paradise lost]

I feel a bit ungrateful here as I am dismissing so many good ideas, but I have honestly tried them

You are NOT ungrateful Ryn! You need to parent according to your own values and standards (i too wouldn't want to use a lot of "props" she has her bedtime lamb and that's all) it's bad enough having to listen to "i told you so" from MIL/your mum/strangers without hearing yourself saying it to you in your head as well!

I realised after i answered you that when it comes to sleeping i am strict and relentless. During DD's 90 minute morning nap i usually shower, tidy, prepare lunch and surf about a bit. It is undivided "me" time. DD woke up 40 minutes early today but you know, i was busy tidying, and she was fine in her cot with a cup of water and her lamb and a toy seal, so i went in once, tucked her back in and told her it was naptime and then i ignored her. She didn't cry or sleep, just moaned a bit, sang a bit, whinged a bit, chatted a bit, off an on. Ultimately i went to get her when i was finished doing what i was doing. I am more comfortable with this than with living in a filthy house and never having a moment to myself.

Obviously your DS is a lot younger than DD and he might not be ready for this approach and would scream in distress, but i honestly think HALF of DD's cooperation is actually through lack of choice! LOL.

Anyway, i'm not sure what the point of that was except to say that even if i think DD naps and sticks to her routine etc. in part at least it's because i accept no alternative. You have tried everything Ryn, this is not something you're doing or not doing, it's just the way DS is right now.

hun, be gentle with yourself and grab your sleep when you can.

Bx

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Lucy, I'm not anti-CD, just this particular one. Not only does it make me talk like a Dr Seuss book for the rest of the day (DH hates me wandering around saying "And now for a bit/Samuel will sit/He will sit for a bit/For a bit he will sit. My boy is so big, my boy is so clever/He can sit on his bum and fall over never." Or words to that effect). Anyway, not only that but there's the background music and sound effects, it's such a busy CD! I need to sleep too.

He is in my room, DH is in the nursery for now and I have tried sleeping in the sitting room, but he still wakes up. If the CD works he'll be swiftly moved to the nursery!

I am strict with sleeping - I don't care if it takes me two hours to get him back down (well, I do!), he knows that nighttime is NOT playtime. He sleeps at night and if he won't I will make him sleep. In the early morning, 6.30 onwards, he can stay awake and play quietly, but not shout or get up for the day until after 7am - unless he does poos, then we do get up a bit early. Day sleeps less so, but he doesn't like being awake without me around. Once DS is old enough to understand then he will be put to bed and told to close eyes. I'll read a story or sing a lullaby, but he must have closed eyes... I am not having any of this "can't sleep" malarky. Well, if DH and I make a lot of noise then that's justifiable.

OK, he's awake again, best be off!

[Liz]

Oh Ryn, you poor thing. I don't have anything more to suggest than anyone else's ideas here. Only thing that popped into mind was could you possibly be trying too many different things? Could that be unsettling him - trying one thing, then another?

DD woke up 40 minutes early today but you know, i was busy tidying, and she was fine in her cot with a cup of water and her lamb and a toy seal, so i went in once, tucked her back in and told her it was naptime and then i ignored her. She didn't cry or sleep, just moaned a bit, sang a bit, whinged a bit, chatted a bit, off an on. Ultimately i went to get her when i was finished doing what i was doing. I am more comfortable with this than with living in a filthy house and never having a moment to myself.

hehe - DS is in a normal bed, so just gets himself up.. but I don't have to worry about not getting the house clean just coz he woke up - he was doing all the vacuuming for me today, and got upset if I took it off him! LOL. (sorry - bit OT )

[Lulu]

Keep on with the routine - even if it is 'looser' some days than others. The more Mitch slept - the more he slept. The overtired cycle was the hardest to break, but when it did - JOY!

[*charmalea*]

i may have missed this ... please send daggers if i have...

go back to swaddling ... itried this on a winters day when ds was cranky and cold ... he slept for 3 hrs during the day ....

i wrap hime all the time when he gets whingy and wont settle... with in minutes he is asleep or if its not nap time .. he is more calm and much easier to handle

he is nearly 10 months and i will swaddle him till i cant find a big enough muslin!!!!

[Smoke Jaguar]

That's where my tack diverges wildly from yours! Completely disregard this if it really assaults your ideas, here's what I do with my child in my situation:
If DS won't go down, I let him go and play off some steam. I'd rather have the 'malarky' than spend two hours trying to get a non-sleepy child to sleep. Cos I could be doing things in that time! Granted, my child is now walking and can entertain himself better, but I did this from very early on. I wasn't going to be the bunny getting strung out pushing the proverbial uphill. My thinking was that whilst I know that this kid should be in bed, the kid had no such reasoning and was only going by what his body was telling him, which was invariably 'not tired yet'! I am the one who is capable of adjusting my habits around the kid, but I know that DS is not about to work around our expectations of him. He just won't, I know my kid - he is just way too engaged with his environment. Other kids are a lot more cooperative to their parents, from what my friends report (although, they also spend ages trying to get kids to sleep, so I don't know just how well their system works!). So, I work with him, instead of the other way around. My next kid might be very different.
DP was very skeptical of this for a long time and wondered why I wasn't trying to do what other parents try to do. He now sees that it would be futile and end up in us getting stressed that he's not comforming, and DS being upset because we're not listening to him.
Now that he's older, if he's not ready to sleep and I am completely at the end of my tether, I've lately taken to getting him ready for bed (with all the cues that it involves - changing into PJ's, turning lights down, putting sling on, feeding him in sling, putting 'night nappy' on etc), and lying him down next to me anyway. If he really doesn't want to be there, I let him go and I stay in bed! Now that he's more mobile, I figure that he knows where I am. If he really wants to play, he will. If he's just overtired (usually on a day when we've done heaps out of the house) he'll walk out of the room, down the hall, realise I'm not following, come back and ask to be helped into bed with me. Then he'll sleep.
So, whilst my whole spiel here seems to many people like I'm just letting him run riot, what I've been working up to all these months of his life is to recognise when he's had enough and when it's time for bed. Sure, mostly he needs help to get to sleep, but it's slowly starting to emerge that he can listen more to his body beyond just the 'hungry' or 'clingy' messages!
Sorry for the dissertation, but this is what I mean by getting back to basics. I mean letting go of 'norms' and getting back to listening to what your child is telling you, even if they don't see it.
Yep, I get comments from people who say "I wouldn't do that", and I think "well, that's fine, cos you don't have to, he's not your kid". If my ideas don't suit, ignore this whole post. You know for yourself what you are comfortable trying. I was comfortable to give it up to him to tell me what I needed to be doing. When I see that he is finally properly tired, I go through the cues again, and he gets his bearings again.
DP realises now that there is method to my madness. It doesn't have to be anarchy, it doesn't need to be highly regimented. Routine does not have to mean 'schedule'. One is flexible and quite portable, the other is not as easily taken on holiday or away for a couple of nights, and a change of environment can render a 'schedule' useless for a child.
Sorry, I really don't want this to sounds like a sermon!!
I thought it might be useful to read about someone else's experience, even if you adopt none of it. My way doesn't mean you lose control of anything, it just acknowledges that there are some things you don't control, you just work around it

[Emma1979]

Mayaness you make so much sense to me. I have a very alert 'i dont want to miss out on ANYTHING' four and a half month old... and after months of trying to get her to sleep, in particular longer than 45 minutes during the day, i am now - i don't want to say giving up - but i've just decided i am not going to be so obsessed with how much sleep she is (or isn't) getting... in the end it only stresses me out and i sort of think in the long run it is pointless. As long as she isn't an overtired ratty mess, I have started to get her up after 45 minutes of sleep and let her play, or i take her around the house with me while i get jobs done. Today i actually was able to weed the garden while she layed under a towel with no nappy on in her pram - AMAZING. Something I never would have been able to do normally, as I would be too busy inside getting her to stay asleep.

I have to shield my eyes when i read about how many hours a 4.5month old SHOULD be getting during the day, and cover my ears when the girls at mothers group talk about their babies having a regular 3 hour nap each day. It just isn't going to happen for my DD. She doesn't want to miss out on a thing and is a real live wire. So be it. I have completely given up any notion of a routine and just take each day as it comes and go with her flow. I am feeling like a better mum because of it too. Oh and the odd day she surprises me and sleeps for two hours without a peep, and I end up walking around the house not knowing what to do with myself, haha.

Anyways sorry to hijack the thread, just wanted to say that I like the sound of what you are doing and it makes so much sense to me.

[Smoke Jaguar]

LOL Emma - I sat through the Jennifer Keyte video during the mothers group sessions telling Oscar not to listen to the bit about going to bed awake! I was a bit cheeky and kept making the sound that the 'wrong answer buzzer' on Sale of the Century used to make everytime we 'failed' at a point being made about how you 'should' do things with your baby...bit norty...but luckily my health nurse knows me and what I do not want to hear, so she never lectured me at appointments.
My mothers group tends to look at me as if I'm an anarchist anyway, because I don't tie myself in knots about getting Oscar to sleep, weaning, self-settling etc.
You do what you gotta do, and the only person you owe any explanation to is your kidlet and yourself No-one else, in the end, matters as far as opinions and advice go.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Lea, I'm in the UK, day temps are about 30 degrees, swaddling him would just overheat him, but thanks for the suggestion. Actually, he would throw off a swaddle from birth so it may be dangerous to do that now.

Mayaness, if DS wants to play at 3am I am not happy to turn on the lights and let him play. Daytime sleeps are up to him and bedtime starts when he gives us sleepy cues (around the same time every night). I just won't let him have really broken sleep at night; if he's up at 3am I can have him asleep before 3.15, it's just keeping him asleep when I stop walking that takes the time. He refused to go back to sleep this morning after wanting to start the day at 5.20, so I did let him play until DH got up. I do listen to him and go by his cues in the day, but tbh he NEEDS to sleep at night and I will help him to do that. While I'm all for baby-lead parenting I am not for playing at stupid times when DS is tired and can't go back to sleep.

Emma, DS never did big naps either, I'd fret if he did more than 2 hours! He has done a few long ones, but they are very infrequent. And yes, I wonder what to do with myself too some of those times. It's more the night sleeps I worry about!

Anyway, last night. He didn't sleep through, but I didn't have to get out of bed in the small hours, so that's good. First wake-up was because of a dog barking outside, the other two he fed back to sleep. The early wake-up could have been cos he napped for a lot of yesterday morning, so this morning we are going to the park so he won't sleep quite so much.

[Emma1979]

for me, the night time wakings are an absolute killer.... sometimes i could be up 10 times a night, and combined with being unable to get back to sleep (ME!), it was absolutely doing my head in. sometimes i would just fall back to sleep when she would be wanting me again. A few weeks ago i started taking her to bed with me after her last feed for the night, anywhere between 10.30pm-1am.... it has pretty much solved most of my problems (except with my relationship with DP who doesn't sleep with us).... sometimes i have to sleep propped up holding her but at least i am in bed and it is warm and i can get back to sleep much easier than when i am lying in bed wondering how long before she is going to wake etc.

friends and family are always commenting on how i really should be persisting and trying to get her to sleep in her own cot, but i think why spend an hour or two trying to get her to go back to sleep, and then being up through the night, when i could just take her to bed with me. It works better for ME this way and means i get more sleep. I haven't actually tried to get her to sleep in her cot after the last feed in a while, so who knows, maybe she would, but it means i can't sleep as i am laying there wondering how long its going to last! haha.

im sure somebody somewhere along the lines may have suggested co-sleeping?? for me, i had to do it as i was getting no sleep and getting strung out. now i love it!

[Emma1979]

ooops just realised you are in summer, co-sleeping is definitely more of a winter solution i guess. nice and cosy and warm.