All the 'rules' about what you can and can't eat when you're pregnant really used to give me the irrits and DP's standard response used to be "yep, it's all rubbish, I bet Japanese women carry on eating sushi and I bet French women carry on eating their brie and pate."
I'm not trying to encourage people to break the 'rules', I'm just curious as to whether people actually know whether that's the case. Anyone been pregnant in those countries and/or is aware of their guidelines?
It's a good question.
I've avoided ALL sushi and cold meats (ie salami) and soft cheeses/pate.
I think like in Japan, they make their own Sushi in their homes which is fine to do as long as you use proper hygiene you know? Whereas if you buy it outside your home you have no control over who is preparing the food and what happens to it.
Sushi is soooo risky for bacteria.
I wonder however how the Germans etc eat heaps of cold Salami's? they eat things like that daily over there!!! do they make Salami in their house?? maybe they do.
I'm so glad we can eat Jarlsberg cheese (considered a hard cheese) it's so yummy!!
Not sure about French and Japanese women but my friend is Italian (living in Melbourne)and she didn't know the "rules" when she was pregnant so for the first 3 months of her pregnancy she HAD to have a salami and cheese sandwich (not toasted). Then she found out the "rules" and she freaked out and went to docs for advice/checkup etc and her baby is fine. Oh and today she told me she ate RUNNY eggs!:o She didn't even know about the runny egg thing until I told her TODAY and her son is 3 AND A HALF ! She's also got a 7 month old daughter who is also perfect.
I don't know? Sometimes I think we can be overinformed you know?
I think it's wise to be careful, but by the same token, many of the "rules" weren't around when our mothers and grandmothers were pregnant and most of us turned out just fine! I don't think it's necessary to be anal about the "do's and don't's). I've heard that by eating some of the things that are normally considered "no no's" it can actually help avoid a child getting allergies to things. For example, I saw something the other day that a new study has found that by eating things like nuts during pregnancy and introducing small amounts from the age of 4 months instead of waiting until a child is 5 years old it decreases the risk of allergy. However, I'm not a doctor and I think that every mother and mother to be needs to make informed choices for themselves and their child. What is ok for some is not ok for others.
my friend who is greek constantly ate fetta when pg. she said she just couldn't avoid it, and for the record, her dd is fine.
what's the runny egg thing? i've been eating runny eggs!
Yes, it's wise to be careful - but i find "these days" people are too obsessive about this issue and the actual stress of analysing everything you eat can be more harm than what you put in your mouth.
I avoided soft cheese, raw egg, penuts and a couple of othere things. I live in Germany and i love salami - I only had it on rare occasions throughout my pregnancy as I was aware it was to be avoided.
I agree with the too obsessive, when i had DD one they didn't have half of these rules.
As someone pointed out, they do eat those things in France and Japan etc, one of the guys at work tried to stop me eating calamari and octopus when I was pg and as a greek friend said the women in greek villages have been eating it when pg for centuries.
RE: Sushi:
I think like in Japan, they make their own Sushi in their homes which is fine to do as long as you use proper hygiene you know? Whereas if you buy it outside your home you have no control over who is preparing the food and what happens to it.
Sushi is soooo risky for bacteria.
Fish is said to be avoided because of the Mercury levels, not the bacteria. So it wouldn't matter if it was made at home, in a factory or anywhere else.
I broke heaps of the 'rules' when I was pregnant. TBH I didn't even know the sushi one and I ate heaps of sushi. I had the odd serve of soft cheese too.
This is true to some extent, but there were loads and loads of unexplained stillbirths that would now most likely be attributed to listeria.:
I know for me, I just didn't think the risks were worth it. As much as I wanted to eat cold meats, brie cheese and pate, the health of my baby was on my mind constantly so it kinda turned me off those foods because of that.
The sushi rice is actually very susceptible to bacteria.:
i didn't really go by the 'rules' either. I ate ham, runny eggs, etc...I just avoided the more obvious things, like salad bars. There are too many rules these days!!
hmm- been thiking the same thing cause the only thing i've been craving is sushi. i went to japan at 23 weeks and had it there though- trying to avoid it here but it'ssoooooooooo hard
I know someone who lost a baby in pregnancy from Listeria.
With my first 2, I thought it was just all rubbish and I still continued eating like i would normally, this included cold meats and soft cheese. The boys were fine thank God.
Then I met my friend, she told me about her son, it broke my heart and this time I was careful.
I think at the end of the day you do what you want, but to me now that I know what happens, can happen, has happened, I don't think it is worth the risk for a peice of ham or a bit of kabana.
If i listened to all the 'rules' I would have nothing to eat! I do limit my serving of fish to twice a fortnight though. But i eat soft serve (only at maccas cause their turn over is huge) and subway, cold meat from the deli (but obviously not if it looks bad), pasta salad. Have done through the other kids pregnancies too we are all fine. Everything in moderation though!
mm, that is terrible about your friend :( i am curiuos though how did they find out it was that that caused it??
My friend who is Greek said that in their village they give the pregnant women salami to eat! In Slovenia they also make a special alcohol for women to strengthen their constitution.
Actually, the rice is prone to bacteria! so is the seaweed.... yes mercury is in fish but in a very small amount like in one roll? can't see how that would do much harm you'd have to eat quite a few rolls!:
Eating fish is so good for pregnant women but again, in moderation. I eat sardines 2 times a week Mmmm yum! Great brain food.
I make my own sushi at home and generally have avocado and cucumber ones, sometimes with chicken. DH thinks it's ridiculous that there are so many rules for us pg women to follow "just in case". I'm not flout the rules ridiculously, but I'm not super dooper strict either. I think I was craving a ham sandich a few weeks ago andd had one. I think the stress can sometimes be more harmful than letting yourself have a little bit of something "naughty".
I followed my gut with foods and I found it served me well. One occasion I looked at a whole table of food and just went I can't eat any of that. I was right, everyone else got food poisoning. I was 6 weeks pregnant at the time and very thankful I went with my initial reaction to seeing the food. I still ate what I wanted after that, but always followed my instinct, so sometimes I would have sushi and other times the look of it turned me off.
To whoever asked, the thing with runny eggs is salmonella. It can be in any egg that is not totally cooked and the same with chicken. When pg salmonella is harmful to the foetus. It is not a common problem in eggs and it doesn't grow in eggs that are refridgerated. But of course the eggs are stored for a quite a while before you buy them.
I lived in Japan for a year and sushi was usually only eaten on special occassions in the home. And it was really only eaten as often in restaurants as we would here.
MR- i am so jealous you lived there
It was awesome LSK. I absolutely love it there.
It would be interesting to know the stats for stillbirth/miscarriage caused by consuming such foods in those countries.
In fact what is the risk % if you didn't change your diet to avoid such foods?
I don't think it's the volume/number of times you eat those foods, it's just that there's a chance of listeria every time you do. Just as there's a chance of listeria even if you're not pregnant. Problem is that listeria is very harmful to the foetus and can cause miscarriage.
The chance of listeria/salmonella is the same whether or not you're pregnant.
I'm sure someone will come in and explain that much better than I just have.
When Annabelle died at 31 weeks the first thign they asked was what had I eaten the last few days. I had had KFC and had had coleslaw coz I love their coleslaw. The immediate response was that she could have died of listeria. I was induced a few hours later and after 12 hrs of labour I had an emergency c sec where it was discovered she had the cord aroudn her neck and arm so it was that and not listeria. However I still had to have blood taken and tested and they also did pathology for Listeria on Annabelle.
There was also a Today Tonight segment a year or two ago about a sports star in Aus who lsot her baby sto stillbirth and tests shwoed a high mercury content. She had fish up to 3 times a week coz it was good for you but it was deep sea fish which has the highest levels.
I think you will find if you research that only certain species of fish tend to have the higher mercury so just avoid deep sea fish.
I think it is the larger fish... the ones that consume lots of smaller fish and have an accumlative affect? So sharks (flake) and the like:
So smaller fish like sardines (and lots others... sorry too tired to think) are fine :)
Metwaurst baby...not salami :) and the answer is yes:
we also have a dish called tata and (please do not read if you have a weak stomach) is raw mince that has onion, raw eggs and spices in it eaten smeared over bread. Its eaten all the time..pg or not..along with Limburger cheese :o
I ate all the worng things when I was pg with Nikolaus and Vyolett (normal children) and all the right things with Wilhelm and Mateauz (special needs children).......so I think its the luck of the draw
I think when pg you are also more susceptible to food-poisoning causing bacteria, like listeria & salmonella, as your immune system is somewhat compromised. For me, well I would prefer to not take the risk of eating high risk foods, I'm sure I can live without deli meats & runny eggs for the next 6 months, however I know that if something happened to my unborn bub and I had done something that could have caused it, such as eating high risk foods, it would be a very difficult thing to overcome... they aren't rules so much as guidelines, no one says "no you definitely cannot eat this food" it's generally just recommended you don't, and its up to the individual as to whether they are prepared for that level of risk or not.
To answer the original question, yes and yes. Japanese women eat sushi and French women (in fact most mainland Europeans) eat soft cheeses, while pregnant.
The issue with fish is that LONG-LIVED fish - tuna, marlin, swordfish, shark - can have higher mercury levels in their flesh - for pregnant women the advice is the same as for everyone else - do not eat more than 2 portions of long-lived sea-fish a week. Not eating ANY fish during pregnancy can be quite dangerous if you're used to eating it because you need good sources of iodine for thyroid function in you and bubs and omega 3 fatty acids in higher amounts during pregnancy to help bubs brain develop. These things can be gotten elsewhere (iodised table salt for iodine, certain nuts and seeds for omega-3's) but if you usually get them through fish and are opting to have NO fish you need to replace them.
I don't have figures on listeria-related foetal damage or demise in France but i assure you the the French government, like MOST governments, has a public health department which acts on risk to ensure the people are safe, and they have NOT found it necessary to advise their women to avoid soft cheese.
I did not avoid anything i fancied during pregnancy except alcohol (had an immense liking for champagne at a champagne breakfast when i was 12 weeks, drank one fingerswidth of a flute to quell it, and stopped there, though it tasted so good to me, i could have had 3 glasses!). I craved sushi and i ate mountains of it, 2 or 3 packs at a time 2-6 times a week from the 11th week to the 41st. The outcome? I have a really smart child who likes fish, but that might not have been the sushi. I didn't have tuna or swordfish sushi and stuck to short-lived fish and shellfish varieties, and i tended to stick to a few supermarkets and one restaurant i trusted, but ocasionally the craving hit and i just ate the nearest sushi! I especially enjoyed raw salmon, and i still do - i will buy filets and eat the trimmings right off the raw pieces! Mmmm, just the thought!
If i'd craved vodka or coal or petrol i'd have been more careful about it, but i trust my body, i don't believe it would demand something so insistently that it didn't need, and i don't think depriving a pregnant body of something it clearly needs is wise at all.
Bx
Mmmmmm Maz! Metwurst, I love Metwurst.... I walk past it in the aisle at woolies and dreewwwl! I cant' wait to buy some when i'm not PG! :D that stuff is the best!
I've been eating salami but ONLY when piping hot served on pizza like last night :)
Thanks Bec - the thing that 'gets' me I suppose when I think about this is that it would only take one stroke of bad luck to end up with listeria BUT at the same time, in my 39 years on the planet, I've never had listeria. So the chances of getting it if I ate the same food from the same places when non-pregnant would not actually be any higher.
Or is it possible to get listeria without actually knowing it? So maybe I'm wrong to be a bit blase about it because I could have had it multiple times without knowing?
BTW, I am NOT trying to launch an argument that everyone should be less vigilant and trying to persuade everyone to stuff themselves full of sushi and soft cheese, I'm just interested in the facts and in what other countries recommend and why.
I was careful first pg but both that pg and this one I have been told by midwife and ob that they give these blanket "rules" because some people just don't check the finer print. eg Pg women can have soft cheese as long as they are pasteurised and have been handled through the cold chain efficiently. Sushi is fine as long as it is from a reputable place (safe food handling) and you don't eat a lot of the long living mercury accumulating fish.
I guess everything in moderation and as someone said earlier - follow your gut instinct.
Remember that song - "fish, chips and chikko rolls, tomato sauce and sausage rolls"... I wonder if in other countries thay are told don't eat meat pies, chikko rolls and sausage rolls and those women think I wonder if Australians still eat their meat pies and sausage rolls...
Of course you turned out fine as did I, but how many losses may have happened due to listeria or other bugs.:
but by the same token, many of the "rules" weren't around when our mothers and grandmothers were pregnant and most of us turned out just fine!
Guess in those days though a miscarriage was shrugged off as God's will and they had no way of figuring out what caused it to happen.
When I had my first daughter twenty years ago, there was much less information about what was dangerous to eat. The "rules" on alcohol have changed, also. Research happens, findings are made, and women are informed of the risks - they can choose to take those risks, or not, I guess.
Australia has an enviable perinatal and infant mortality rate - though not, shamefully, in our indigenous population - and much of that is due to good prenatal care and information. While the listeria risk is sometimes overblown (it's actually quite uncommon) it is real, and we benefit from knowing that risk. I guess we have to ask ourselves if taking the risk is worth that sushi roll or not. Reye's syndrome is an extremely rare response to aspirin, but there are still very few of us who would give our children aspirin for a fever when paracetamol is available.
Some of us will not take the risk, some of us will - it's not silly to inform women of the risk, nor is it silly to decide not to take the risk, when there are so many alternatives. People in Australia eat a lot of pre-prepared food that has been sitting around in delis and supermarkets for a long time. People in provincial France eating raw cheeses may well be eating the produce of animals around whom they have been for many years and may be immune to all their bugs anyway. And their food may be a lot fresher, even if it is not pasteurised. (All cheese in Australia must be pasteurised, I believe.)
Similarly with alcohol, research in the last five years or so has revealed that there is no reliably safe level of alcohol consumption in pregnancy, whereas it was once believed that one or two glasses here and there was no problem. Again, you can choose to roll that dice, or just abstain for a while. Sure, many people drank during pregnancy and many babies were fine, but we don't use that line for motor vehicle restraints - so by all means be confident about taking calculated risks, but they *are* risks.
It's up to each woman to decide, but I don't see that ignorance is bliss, not when the chance of ignorance is miscarriage or stillbirth. We need to make informed decisions and be confident in them. There are no guarantees either way and it is just risk management, not thwarting a definite hazard every time we try to avoid a risk.
Yes, it is quite possible to be exposed and asymptomatic. Pregnant women and their babies are particularly vulnerable, as are the elderly, very small children and the immunosuppressed.:
HI
I just read this thread and thought mmm my sister and her husband should read and then they may stop expecting everyone to follow the rules....
Im a nurse and i knew that it was a 'blanket' type rule with the listeria thing and that cheeses are all pasturized before consumption here in australia. BUt when i was pregnant this time last year ... god forbid i had a cooked fresh prawn and a bit of brie and both my sister (who was pregnant) and her husband totally had a heart attack and couldnt believe 'as a nurse i could eat such things' I just replied with you do your thing and ill do mine. Mind you my sister was knocking back the champers and i had none! So yes im with whoever said if you eat in moderation and eat things that are fresh and havent been siiting outside in the sun for hours etc etc you should be fine.
That women who sadly lost her bub at 31wks ... i think that was terrible how the medical staff said 'oh it must have been a listeria thing... ' Why cant they get the bub delivered, do the test first, and then if it is a bacteria infection (food related) then tell the mother....
BTW my Alistair delivered at 37 weeks from LMP was absolutely fine....and i did have wine on occassions as well! But obviously didnt get smashed !
BubNo.2
The other night we went out for our work Christmas party and one of the pg women was eating raw oysters, i thought the other pg woman there was going to have a heart attack in front of me LOL
I haven't read all of the posts yet but feel really compelled to reply to what I have read! :protest:
Listeria poisoning in pregnancy exists - it isn't some trick of the authorities to make eating choices difficult for pregnant women.
It is not a fallacy - having witnessed deaths of babies inutero from listeria and having contact with 2 other women who have lost their beloved babies thru this bacteria - let me assure you of this reality.
It is YOUR choice what you eat when you are pregnant. A likely outcome if you contract Listeria is the death of your baby inutero. So, be informed, make an decision based on the knowledge that we have.
Is it likely that you will contract listeria if you do not follow the guidelines? It's not likely but you are more likely to than someone who does eat "safely".
Listeria is found frequently in soft serve ice cream (even Maccas), soft cheeses like brie, fetta and camembert, rice that has been cooked, stored and cooled. Pre made salads. 6 out of 10 fridges randomly tested on an current affair show (cannot remember which one) had listeria present in the salads & other foods contained in the fridges.
Should you be paranoid? NO! As I have said before if you are sensible it's highly unlikely you will contract listeria. Wash salads well before preparing. Do not store uncooked rice in your fridge for later use. Wash your hands well etc etc.
Your body your choice but for those that think these are "rules" and restrictions put upon you by the pregnancy police - politely I ask you to think again. There were unexplained still births through the millenia - now all stillborn babies and their Mamas are tested for listeria as it's a known cause.
It's great if you have a "healthy and developmentally normal" child and ate "at risk" foods. Again clearly you most likely did not come in contact with listeria contamination during pregnancy if you had a live baby. The most likely outcome of Listeria contamination is foetal death - not developmental delays...
There are many women who have lost babies due to listeria and other reasons that now have a way to be avoided.
Is avoidance of certain foods for 9 months really such a drama??? I have been pregnant 12 times and frankly saw it as just what I did to give my baby the best chance - not a ball and chain.
Listeria loves a cool environment - refrigeration DOES NOT kill listeria. Heat does. Pasteurization heats the food & would kill the listeria at the point of pasteruization (if it were contaminated) but then the listeria bacteria can grow in the food once it is cooled in refrigeration.. Listeria favours foods with a certain ph.
Listeria does not distinguish between pateruized and unpasteurized food.
I agree each to their own - but be informed - fully informed and educated then make your decision.
I kinda think it's like those stories.... "My great uncle Bob lived to 105 and smoked three packs of ciggies, drank a bottle of bourban a day and ate lard... Yep some people can survive it but doing that makes it more likely that you will run into strife...:D