"Privileged" Education

[krisp]

Following on from another thread regarding private v's public eductaion I thought I'd share a recent experience.

I recently attended a black tie function that is an annual event held by one of Australias top 10 private schools. I won't say which school other than it was here in Melbourne. We were invited as my husbands company is involved with the school.

I was seated next to a fellow I had never met. He was introduced to me as "this is xxxxxxxx and he is a Rhodes Scholar". My initial thought was OK, nothing more nothing less. Anyway, one of the first things this man said to me was "so, what school did you go to?" I was a little surprised, I left school 22 years ago so why is it relevant? I didn't of course say that I merely told him I went to a very small public school in Newcastle that he would not have heard of. I also asked him why he wanted to know. To my shock and horror he replied something along the lines of the school I attended would give him an idea of my socio-economic status!!! I couldn't believe it!! He was actually deciding if I was important enough financially to be bothered with.

I am the daughter of a steel worker, who's mother was a SAHM, I went to the local public primary and high school (as did my 2 sisters and brother). I consider myself to be articulate, well spoken, intellegent and quite an interesting person, I have travelled to many exotic and interesting places and I have post-grad tertiary education. But someone please tell me why the school I went to or the financial status of my parents has any bearing on me as an adult.

So, I am left pondering...

Does the school you went to matter?
Does private schooling afford you priviledges that would otherwise not be open to you?
Does it play a role in your future eg job selection, lifestyle choices etc?
Does it shape the person/adult you become?

[Persephone1]

Personally, I think your upbringing plays a more crucial role. My siblings and are are all publically-school educated, and I went to a small regional University to study Law. The only people who cared about which University I went to were the w@nkers who went to a sandstone University and base their judgements on that.

My DH and I have talked about this a lot. We believe, quite strongly, that we will choose a school for our children based on it's ability to foster well-rounded individuals. Whether that's private or public won't have much weight - because as we see it, the school is not responsible for raising our children, we are. We would like the school/s to share our values, but if they don't, or we find them lacking in a particular area, then it is for US to fill that gap.

Take, for example, religion. DH and I are not religious. We would like our children to learn about all sorts of religions, and don't want them to be preached at whilst they're at school. But if they are only taught one religion at school, then it is up to us to fill the gap by teaching them about other religions and faiths. DTMS?

FWIW, my friends are both privately and publically educated. But their good qualities, IMO, are more to do with their upbringing and life experience than which school they went to.

[HotI]

I think it can depend on whether you take on the 'culture' of the school or not. If you attend an exclusive school, and take on an air of exclusion then this can affect the rest of your life. Different schools can open your eyes to different careers, lifestyles etc and give people the confidence to follow different pathways. Attending a private school may make it more challenging if someone wants to work at a music store or become a monk or something, where as kids who attend less priveleged public schools may face more challenged if they want to do law..

However, i do think the guy you spoke to was a bit of a twat if he is still hung up on what school you went to

[onthefly]

This happened to my DH when we were living overseas. Another kiwi struck up a conversation, found out they were from teh same city, then wanted to know what school he went to. DH was in his 30s for pete's sake! Maybe it was the highlight of this guy's life, I dunno.
Anyway, I don't think it's important. It does seem that some graduates of private schools seem to think it's important - maybe it's drilled into them at the school - but I really can't see how it could possibly matter.

[krisp]

However, i do think the guy you spoke to was a bit of a twat if he is still hung up on what school you went to

Kate07 - you are so right!

The introduction should have been... "This is xxxxxx and he is a twat!!"

[Phteven]

My goodness, is there anything sadder than a middle aged man who hasn't lived enough to stop defining himself by the school he went to.

Have you ever read Freakonomics? They have written a number of essays about school choice and they often have more about it in their blog (maybe because they're parents with school age children). More Evidence on the (Lack of) Impact of School Choice - NYTimes.com
Better Schools, or Better Teachers? - NYTimes.com

From a statistical point of view your children are more likely to have a tertiary qualification if you do regardless of which school you choose to send them to. They are more likely to succeed if you have lots of books in the house and if you join the P&C. Not because these things seep in by osmosis but because parents with lots of books who get involved in their children's school tend to care about their education.

Soooo IMO....

Does the school matter? Not as much as your parents.
Does private schooling afford you more privileges/opportunities? Not if you are lacking in parental support or have a low EQ. If money is tight after paying for private school bills it could deny you opportunities to participate in extra-curricular activities that you might be able to afford if you were at a public school.
Does it play a role in future? Probably. Is there any guarantee that that role will be positive? No.
Does it shape the person/adult you become? Hmmm you arrive at high school after 12 years of being shaped by your home and primary school. You spend 5 or 6 years there. 5 or 6 years in which you are at the mercy of massive hormonal/physical changes and then you leave. 5 or 6 years isn't much especially when one considers that by the time you arrive your attitude towards schooling and education has already been shaped by primary and pre school.

I went to a few schools, mainly very expensive elite ones. DH went to a school that was called the worst school in the state on the front page of the major daily. DH is personable, capable and earns oodles of money. I'm misanphropic, messy and anti-social. I'm very well educated but I suspect that if I looked for a job I wouldn't find one.

I'm no fan of private education because my parents spent a fortune on mine and what I gained from it was the ability to tie a tie whilst running, awesome lock-picking skillz and some great drug contacts. Private school kids have access to better drugs - there's no doubt about that.

[Bathsheba]

Hmmm, that fellow seems to verge on the mentally ill. I would not consider him typical of somebody who has attended a private/independent school. I've also been to many such functions and never encountered anyone like him at all! He actually sounds quite insecure.

I'm not sure how to answer your questions in the context of what that fellow said... incase it sounds like I support him... which i dont!

HOWEVER. The school you attend can influence your life in ways you have mentioned... for the positive, it's true. If I am to be honest I have to admit that I have heard things said by various people (outside of the education sector) that imply that students who attend private schools often are better placed to be interviewed for certain professional roles simply because they attended a private school. But I am talking about a narrow field of careers: banking/law/corporate sector. Specifically the argument is that students from these schools are GENERALLY more comfortable with all the business etiquette that is expected of them. I know I know.... not always the case... generally speaking. Plus they generally are less "daunted" by authority/power/money etc. Specific example: the bank my DH works for prefers their graduate bankers to have a private education history because they have found that these students more likely have the skills to talk to high net worth clients in a professional manner... and have, generally, a higher standard of grooming and speech patterns. I'm not saying this is right... but the attitude is out there... unwritten... but it exists.

Please don't shoot this messenger... only passing on what I have heard.

BUT at the end of the day not all kids actually WANT to be graduate bankers LOL so really, maybe it's all really irrelevant!

ETA: actually what IS drilled into them at most private schools (the ones that I have sent my daughter to and worked at) is that, as a student, you are damned fortunate to be there and not to take your situation for granted! To this ends students are expected to do alot more community work (eg in nursing homes) than most public schools I know of.

ETA: Rouge's post below also reminded me that my private banker DH attended a very vanilla flavoured country public school and it didn't stop him from entering the world I described above.

[Rouge]

I will never send my children to a certain school for notoriety. Never. They go to the school they do because I love it. It's private but it's definitely NOT prestigious. I've got enough friends who've taken that route and pulled their kids out or wished they had not due to finances but due to the mentality and the way it shaped their children. They and I can't stress enough that the education in most cases is more focused than others, but that isn't everything and sometimes that in itself is damaging.

I look at my husband and all the children in his family. They went to good catholic schools, not prestigious ones and they got where they are with brains and hard work and I am proud of that way more than I would be if it was due to name dropping *shakes head*

[Miss.September]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe he said that to you!

I went to public primary and public secondary schools. I had friends leave the secondary school - one to go to another public school with different subject choices on offer, one to go private because she also wanted different subjects but she believed it would look better on her resume. Wonder if it did in the end?

For me, I think that different subjects would have made the difference. We had from one extreme to the other - from high maths and science classes, to literature and computer classes. If you wanted a decent score to get into uni (which I did), you had to do the tough subjects, there was no other choice. So I did the tough ones and failed dismally. So I decided to give up on wanting to go to uni, and found a TAFE course I really liked and did that instead. But a bad teacher at TAFE made me not pursue where I wanted to be.

Soooo, overall, if my subject choice had have been broader, I would have probably gotten into uni and then become a publishing editor like I wanted to.

Does the school you went to matter? Not anymore.
Does private schooling afford you priviledges that would otherwise not be open to you? I think it would have at the time.
Does it play a role in your future eg job selection, lifestyle choices etc? My public schooling left me with limited choices as far as tertiary education did.
Does it shape the person/adult you become? It made me acknowledge what I wasn't good at and made me comfortable with that. I learned that I am probably the best judge of what I am capable of and that teachers are just people too who aren't necessarily the "experts" on life. (I say this too because my private-school DH was told that he'd never amount to anything, he was hopeless at everything and he'd never be his dream of an electrician. PFFT to that teacher!!!!!! He's been an electrician for 12 years now and runs his own business SO THERE!! - Okay, I'll grow up now...)

[Amity]

Ok this is my personal belief. Shoot me if you want. My parents are both teachers, and brought up four of us on those wages. My Mum was a SAHM for 13 years during our childhood. I was awarded a full scholarship to my private secondary school. My brother was awarded a half scholarship. My younger siblings were full-fee paying students. My parents didn't finish paying off their education until my youngest sibling was well into her 20s. We didn't have overseas holidays. Our holidays were visiting friends and family interstate, via car. My children have already had more plane trips than I had before I turned 25.

I also think it depends on where you live. Sydney and Melbourne "care" more about private school education than Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane.

So here's my personal opinion:

Does the school you went to matter?
Primary school? No. Secondary school? Yes.

Does private schooling afford you privileges that would otherwise not be open to you?
Yes. I got my first job because of the school I went to. One of the main questions in my field, when I was applying for employment post-degree was "what school did you go to". I know some of the big law firms will only consider applicants from private schools in their "weeding out applicants" phase - I know this because I helped out with the "weeding out".

Does it play a role in your future eg job selection, lifestyle choices etc?

From my friendship group at high school we have: 2x nurses, teacher, psychologist, architect, barrister, banker, research scientist, brothel manager. I don't think my private school education made me who I am today, but it certainly helped in my secondary education to achieve such a high mark for university. We were taught differently from my friends at the local (very prestigious) state high school. We were taught in a way which helped us understand the questions for the exams - and our teachers were always available for questions. I think it also makes a difference when you know your parents are paying godzillion dollars for your education - you appreciate the education more. The students who are negative influences, who "don't want to be at school" are soon gone, and those who appreciate what their parents are sacrificing for them stay.

Does it shape the person/adult you become?
It's not the sole influence, but I do believe it has some influence. My school celebrated its centenary whilst I was in attendance, and this made me appreciate those who have previously been at the school. I am very proud to be an Old Collegian.

My children attend the local Primary school which is fabulous. However, I am in an upper-middle-class area and the school itself is the best in the district. I will, however, be sending them to private for secondary school. Not because I don't like the state secondary school, in fact it is academically very good. I just appreciate and value the private education I had, and wish my children to have the same opportunities that I did. Academically, socially and economically.

[Bathsheba]

Interesting post Divvy. DH has also participated in the "weeding out" process you describe... he actually wanted to hire a public schooled graduate at first... until he realised that... well, it wasn't going to work in THIS situation. However I'm sure that there are many situations where a public education might serve a child better... everything depends on the child... and yes, the parenting. There is no perfect school... only perfect MATCHES between school and child.

[thepixie]

Excellent post Div, but in some ways I disagree. I think that the weeding out process you describes represents a form of intellectual laziness commonly practised within the law and other fields like banking etc.
I agree that private education can be very worthwhile for those who value it, but using it to measure another person's worth (as in krisp's example) is lazy, and to my mind, stupid. And it seems there are some schools where even 50 years after you leave you are still a "XXXXX" boy. I think that's quite sad really. School can shape who you are, but to still be clinging to it decades after you leave is a bit sad and pathetic.
JMO of course.

[fionas]

I should start by saying that I wish private education did not exist so that the dilemma of where to send my kids didn't exist. I can afford private education for both of them but highly resent the fact that being comfortably off means that DDs can access a better education than other kids.

I have limited experience of the private vs public education system in Aus because I grew up in the UK. It mattered A GREAT DEAL when I was growing up. I think the stats when I went to uni were something like 13% of UK kids went to private school yet made up 90% of the university population. In other words 87% of kids went to state schools yet made up only 10% of the uni population. I was 'lucky' enough to be one of the state school kids at university and coming from a state school it was a fairly uncomfortable experience. I think most of us felt out of place but then the UK is a class-based society so that's hardly surprising.

XH went to Xavier College which is one of Melbourne's most expensive private schools. They were all lovely and extremely welcoming of me. They were the nicest bunch of people I've ever met and this is from someone who, because of my background, would like to find fault with people from a private school.

So, did the 'choice' of school offer privileges/opportunities - when I was growing up in the UK, absolutely. It made it much more likely that you would go to university. Which in turn means a better job. I don't know what the stats are in Australia right now but I would think that there is still a disproportionate number of private school kids at uni compared to their state school counterparts - that's a huge factor in why kids are sent to private schools obviously. And if you have the marks to get into uni, then you have many more options than if you don't. The teaching at private schools is geared towards university entrance.

Does going to a private school affect what sort of person you become? Having mixed with both public and private school-educated people, I would have to say the overriding thing difference that strikes me is CONFIDENCE. Private school kids seem to be much more confident and that means they are more likely to be successful in the workplace.



XH would never ask what school someone went to. It was irrelevant to him. Infact, he said that he would prefer to employ someone from a state school as he thought they'd work harder.

[Bathsheba]

Nail on head Fiona! "Confidence" or you can call it "an ability to kick ar$e when necessary". Onyx and Divvy illustrate this well! Infact so many privately educated women i know have this enviable trait that timid ole me can only dream of! Thankfully my 15yo DD has received this too from her primary and secondary private education. I'm not saying that publicly educated people never have this... but just from personal experience it's not as common. And it's this trait that DH needed in his graduate assistant banker: the ability to hold ground if an arrogant CEO is trying to Lord it over them! From his experience the private kids can handle themselves pretty well... and not lose the client in the process!

I don't want to sound too "pro" private system though. Because just like Fiona I REALLY want to support the public system... I care about education... I aim to be a teacher... it's just that especially here in Victoria the public system (the most under-funded in Australia) is not a system I particularly admire compared to what I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford in the private system.

[Jellyfish]

I will preface this by stating that forming a judgement based solely on education is not something I agree with or subscribe to BUT

I don't see a need to let go of your school entirely because you are no longer a student there. I guess this makes me sad and pathetic but I loved/love my school, I look back on those years fondly and I still return for events held there (recently went to make gingerbread houses). I will always be an Old Scholar of my high school, I can't exactly erase my past with time? And why would I want to, they were good memories and what is so wrong with continuing to participate in a community? My family holidayed at the same beach every year and I also love going back there to relive the good times! Or driving past old houses and thinking about being a kid there... is that also sad and pathetic?

Holding onto memories doesn't take away your ability to make new ones!

[Marlene]

because as we see it, the school is not responsible for raising our children, we are.

exactly!!!!!

[krisp]

Interesting conversation about the "confidence" aspect private schooling provides.

Even though I didn't go to a private school I have always been a confident person. My Mum and Dad always told me I could do anything and be anything I wanted to be. I was encouraged to be vocal and express my opinion, to stand up for myself and also others.

I don't know that private schooling instills confidence. I think confidence comes from many different things. It can be part of the molding that your parents provide, it can come from being knocked down and finding the inner strength you need to get back up and get you through, it can be imparted on you by an influential teacher, priest, role model etc, it can come from being an elite athlete or just because that is how you were "made".

I believe confidence is about being sure of who you are and your place in the world.

[angelaartsstudent]

My DD will be going public....well that's the decision we've made so far.

I have nothing major against private schooling, but she is not baptised/christened, so that makes it harder to get in over here. And the public primary school in our area is spoken of way more highly than the privates in the area.

Like above though, I like in an upper-middle class area now. If I was living in the suburb I did last year, there's no way I would send my kid to the local public school.

I went to 4 schools in grade 1. 3 were private, one was public.

1st - private - said I had learning problems and I was moved out bcuase we moved interstate
2nd - private - very deeply religious and ALL the kids still had to line up in the common area and march to class every morning - I was kicked out.
3rd - private - kicked out.
4th - public - I liked it. Suddenly my apparent 'learning problem' disapeared and I suddenly turned 'bright'.

Half way through Grade 3 we moved back to WA and I was put back in the original private school. On my first day back I was bullied and had the crap beaten out of me until the end of year 8. I was told that "You're not worthy, God doesn't want you" in Grade 3, becuase my family was Anglican, not Catholic. But that of course has nothing to do with it being a private school...more with it being in the country and populated by very old and old fashioned teachers.

Then my family moved to the City so my sis and I could get a "better education". I was landed at what is most likely still in the top 5 list of WORST schools in Perth (gangs, violence, major drug problem, kids getting killed from bashings etc). It's public. My sister got to go to a private school. I didn't get a choice.

I have since worked at the most expensive boy's school in the state, and also the cheapest boy's school in the state. Both are as bad as one another...just one costs parents $10000+ more a year than the other!

I am not sure if it matters whether a school is private or public....but the quality of the school does.

Let's just say that I would never send my kid to an exxy school just to look good...but especially not after working at them and seeing the inner workings of the place!