What is/isn't offensive?

[Teeki]

A couple of threads and fb statuses have got me thinking lately: how do we know what is or isn't offensive?

Does it come down to if a person is offended,then yes it is offensive? Or is it more the offended person needs to own it and find out why they're offended and grow from it? Does it depend on the situation?

A couple of examples:

1. A few years ago, the skit on the new Hey Hey It's Saturday involving Australians painting their faces black and pretending to be Michael Jackson. The first time they did it no one cared, this time Harry Connick Jr was highly offended - who owns that? If I remember rightly it seemed to come down to yes, it was offensive, no they shouldn't have done it, and ignorance of the reasons why it's offensive is not an excuse.

2. DD is a huge Daddy's girl. This morning she spent an hour screaming like something from the exorcist, crying for Daddy, hitting me and generally hating me. I have no freaking idea how I got her dressed and in the car. I was offended that she seems to hate me so much, she doesn't want a bar of me. Daddy in the morning, he has to do the bath/shower, put her to bed. No need for me to be here. But I need to own that, I know she isn't meaning to offend me, she just loves her Daddy and no longer needs me for milk etc so can assert her independence.

So for me,I think it comes down to the situation, but I'm wondering what other peoples thoughts are?

[LionsandBears]

I think that anything that suggests discrimination against a group of people because of their characteristics or beliefs can be offensive. However, in some cases, they just need to own that. I couldn't care less if white supremacists are offended by my discrimination against them or if I criticise them. Their values are anathema to me, so if they want to be offended, tough titties. I would be mortified if I found out I'd offended someone based on race/religion etc.

In terms of online communication, it's one thing to say, I disagree with your opinion/ behaviour. It's another thing to say I think you're an idiot (or worse) for having those opinions/behaviours. The latter is more offensive. However, we can't go through life without offending people, sometimes just for being. It's one thing to attack someone and pick a fight. It's another to vigorously disagree.

it takes 2 to find offence.

[MummyNaomi]

I think that anything that suggests discrimination against a group of people because of their characteristics or beliefs can be offensive. However, in some cases, they just need to own that. I couldn't care less if white supremacists are offended by my discrimination against them or if I criticise them. Their values are anathema to me, so if they want to be offended, tough titties. I would be mortified if I found out I'd offended someone based on race/religion etc.

In terms of online communication, it's one thing to say, I disagree with your opinion/ behaviour. It's another thing to say I think you're an idiot (or worse) for having those opinions/behaviours. The latter is more offensive. However, we can't go through life without offending people, sometimes just for being. It's one thing to attack someone and pick a fight. It's another to vigorously disagree.

it takes 2 to find offence.

I think L&B has nailed it, couldn't agree more

I am going to make a sweeping generalisation here, but it ****s me to tears these days when individuals get all 'on their soapbox' or 'play the wounded bull' about others opinions and comments - unless they are directed negatively against an individual, they are just that - opinions! We are all entitled to them, we are also entitled to disagree. I'm one that enjoys a healthy debate about things, and it irks me when the "that's offensive" card is pulled inappropriately. Part of interacting, whether it be online or in person, is that it's fine to agree to disagree, and open communication should be encouraged in my view. I hate petty overly political correctness to be honest, it boring and bland! Give me polite honesty instead

[~Kim~]

Offence is totally subjective rather than objective. I think it's a reaction, often involuntary, when something goes against us whether it be actions or words. Whether you own or grow from your reaction is dependent I think. Dependent on you as a person, your head space and your needs and also external factors.

I spent a lot of years in a profession where I wasn't allowed to be 'offended' but had to prove that it was offensive based on what 'normal' people would have found so.... It taught me not that I (as a normal person) should take offence less, but that I didn't need to let it affect me.

[Rouge]

I think to me what matters most is the intent.

[Jellyfish]

I think when somebody is offended they need to clarify why so each person can actually explore the root of the issue, what's behind this feeling; it could be a product of the offender, the offended or both. Obviously intent becomes important in figuring this out. Disagreements are always a chance to grow, even if it is simply assessing the other person's opinion and growing more confident in your own.

But really, everything is offensive to someone. You have to live true to your own compass because you'll never be able to please everyone. And commit that when you know better, you do better; listen to those you offend, actively and with an open mind but only let it influence you if it influences you positively. Never change through fear, only through enlightenment.

[AnyDream]

I also think offensiveness has to do with the scale of potential hurt or embarrassment.

Sometimes people claim to be shocked or offended when really they are just being offensively judgemental themselves. An example of this are the invisible thought police who deface library books that they consider are "smutty" when in actual fact it might just be some mild homosexual reference or something. That kind of self-righteousness is just begging for an offensive slap-down IMO.

On the other hand, some things are genuinely offensive, often because they are aimed at attributes in people that those people have no power over. Sexism, racism, disparagement of people who have physical or mental conditions - all of these things are objectively offensive because people don't choose to be female, or of a particular ethnic background or whatever. And often these people have already experienced discrimination on many occasions so it becomes even more hurtful. The blackface thing was objectively offensive even before HCJ said it was. It just happened that the group of people involved had not considered that their behaviour might be perceived differently by people whose life experiences were different to theirs.

[Sagres]

..unless they are directed negatively against an individual, they are just that - opinions! We are all entitled to them, we are also entitled to disagree. I'm one that enjoys a healthy debate about things, and it irks me when the "that's offensive" card is pulled inappropriately. Part of interacting, whether it be online or in person, is that it's fine to agree to disagree, and open communication should be encouraged in my view. I hate petty overly political correctness to be honest, it bores me!!

I agree with this to an extent, but I put in a but in there. I have no issue with healthy debate and often encourage it, and I don't find some one with differing opinions to mine offensive on principle, BUT I think the premise of what you are saying about political correctness and inappropriately calling offence assumes that there is one universal set of rules that says what is OK to say and what is offensive. Of course everyone thinks that where they draw the OK/offensive line is the RIGHT place LOL! but it is sooooo subjective it is impossible for there to be one line. Some statements really are offensive to others and don't even set off a warning bell to you, but that doesn't mean they are inappropriately calling offence or being overly political correct, they just have a set of experiences and values that are different to you but equally valid to yours.

[myturn]

Apparently I offend my sister all the time.... Mostly it hurts me to think that she really thinks that I would mean it in that way
but then, I also have to take responsibility to be careful how I say things as I know she is sensitive to them... Whether or not I think she is being ridiculous....

So I guess, even if my intent was not offensive, is she was offended, then... It was offensive... IMO.
Although personally, I always consider the intent... Even if my initial reaction is shock, I usually calm down when I think about it.

I agree that calling someone directly a "name" is offensive... But I also think that name calling in general can be offensive, and there is a difference between giving your opinion eg "i think chocolate ice cream tastes gross" or "I don't like chocolate ice cream", and making a blanket statement eg "people who like chocolate ice cream are stupid" ... I think the latter is still offensive... maybe a little less than "you're stupid for liking chocolate ice cream", but nevertheless offensive.

Its very hard to stand up and tell someone when you are offended, so while in the idea world it would be nice if we could do that... I just don't think it's that easy. Especially if the comments are more general, rather than specifically toward a certain person. But I agree, it's okay to tell someone if you are offended.... Unfortunately you cannot then expect that the person will apologise, in fact you cannot guarantee how someone will react... That's why people avoid the confrontation in the first place I guess.

I guess to answer the original question..... I think there are certain things that are culturally/socially seen as offensive... But I guess even they may not be offensive to everyone... I personally have always had this discussion with DH.... His daughter used to go around calling people cute/silly/funny names eg bucket head, or cranky pants... And I said all along... It's a dangerous habit, it doesn't teach children when its okay and when its not... Safer not to use any names at all. The difference between you are naughty and what you did is naughty or "she is sexist" versus "I think she is sexist" I guess. One you can say for sure, its your opinion, the other one is not an opinion... It's a statement... And a statement needs proof (in my opinion) you can't really tell someone their thoughts are wrong... You can only say that you disagree with them...

Not really sure what I am trying to say is clear.... I feel like I am going around in circles.... I just think that there is a big difference between stating your opinion and making a derogatory or offensive comment about something....

[Bloom]

You know I've been thinking about this lately too!

I recently took offence at a statement that was pretty much: I hate people who voted liberal because they hate gays. (Because while it is a secret ballot and I don't reveal who voted for, I do align myself with some of the liberal parties policies). Anyway, it got me thinking about the underlying thinking: it is okay to hate a group of people based on a trait, but only if they hate a group of people based on a trait...

(Let's not even go into whether or not Liberal voters actually do hate gay people)

but you have to own your own position and if some one choses to dislike you because of that... Then so be it.
and just because something is offensive does not mean you have to take offence.

[Bloom]

And then I got to thinking, that a lot of it boils down to opinons (which you choose) vs objective, non-chosen attributes (i.e. Race).

Discrimination is often based on non-chosen attributes.

And then we get into how societal pressure leads to change of opinons because it is no longer acceptable to hate someone based on a non-chosen attribute (generally, that is the direction society is heading, which is great).

But with this pluralistic society we live in, where everyone holds their own truth and values, it gets tricky when your values colide with mine...

[myturn]

And really.... How is it different to hate someone who votes liberal because of their perceived opinion about that group, or stating someone is a misogynist because of something you have seen or read (but you don't personally know that person) Versus.... Being sexist... Or racist..... Or stating that people who own guns are redneck racists.....

It's still making a judgment about a whole group based on a single opinion, or judging someone you don't actually know...by what you have seen or read.... As believe me .... i am actually of this opinion for everyone.... that means i think we cant judge criminals either....we don't know them.... totally okay to be angry at what people have done have done and not like it and totally disagree with their behaviour.... but to judge them as a whole and say they are disgusting or horrible.... I disagree with that...

Just saying....

[MummyNaomi]

Of course everyone thinks that where they draw the OK/offensive line is the RIGHT place LOL!

Too True Sagres - and the line changes depending on what the issue is. I think sometimes its more the tone of a discussion that determines whether or not offence is taken too. If things are said in a dismissive way that doesn't invite conversation or reply, then yes, that can be offensive. However the same thing could be said in a matter of fact/questioning/curious manner that invites response or debate which is much less likely to offend. I guess it all boils down to the intent by the person making said comment.