TTC after Miscarriage or Loss ~ October 07

ask satya about the maybe baby, I think she said something about it not being reliable for some people, I have used opks once before, working in a chemist I can get most of the testing stuff pretty cheap (at cost) But i only used it because a rep actually gave it to me.
I have registered and completed the course thingy, havent gotten around to actually temping though, I keep reading that you need to have a bbt them, which I can get, but would rather know if I can just use my digital, it would work the same????
That is the reason I havent done it yet!! I dont want to get too wrapped up in just ttc, I want to be able to just bd for the hell of it, not feel obliged cos I want a baby iykwim??

Um derr-what does bbt mean? I know Im gonna look like a d***h***d when you tell me(lol)
I reckon a normal digital would have to work. I had no intention of buying a new one. I think its all a bit of a rort really, but hey. Know what you mean about getting caught up, but let's face it. We are already.
Do you have to be at the start of your cycle with FF? Or can you start charting whenever??

Just had a quick look, and seems you do need to start on day 1, which makes sense, and I answered my own question about BBT. To be honest, it looks a bit like hard work, and rather confusing. Reminds me too much of high school maths which can't be good.

Hi everyone,

I am a little sleepy and thought i would just pop in and say a quick good night :D
Going to bed now - will jump on tomorrow and chat again - i did a quick read over the posts today - thinking of you Beaksie!!

bbt - is basal body temperature - your core or resting temperature - you can start temping after your af has finished just count the cd days from start of af as cd 1 and then do the temps when your af has finished - i am temping down there and wouldn't want to do it during af that's for sure - anyway so far i have managed to take my temp before getting out of bed - despite being desperate for a pee!!!!!

Good night
AnnaBelle
;)

I used the "Mayby Baby" when I first started TTC and it never worked for me - so I had my DH try it - and it said that he was ovulating! So I never used it after that lol

I use FF to chart where I am at, what medications and symptoms I am experiencing - but I don't temp anymore either (after I started having weird nightmares about my BBTT).

Hello to everyone else *wave*, thanks for thinking of me - but I'm still waiting to "O" this month, so just cruising along hoping that the Clomid will work again.

maybe it was you missbelinda that I was thinking of....oops! (in regards to maybe baby)
I totally agree beaksie, the whole babymaking thing is a rort (financially speaking) to not even mention when you finally have the precious bundle in your arms....hmmm. maybe I should start saving up. I get sucked in so easily.
rofl missbelinda about the nightmares!!!
you know its weird, with my mc i had no bleeding, but now I have these nightmares where in my dream i wake up and im bleeding everywhere, sorry a bit grim, but true.
Goodnight annabelle sweet dreams, Is it more accurate to temp vaginally?
well I suppose I should go to bed, I swear you guys all wait until i walk away from the computer to post!!!
nighty night
xxxxx

morning ladies,

Well my friend left last night, but not before asking if her pregnant 18 yo daughter could move in with us !! I have always said that my house is there's and that if ever they wanted to stay for a while, they could. But i dont know if i can handle this one. it would be for 5 months. Just seeing her everyday and knowing that she got pregnant by accident and doesnt really want it, could be enough to push me over the edge. oh dear....what to do.

hugs
treelo

Hi Treelo- Make sure you give it stacks of thought. Dont do it out of obligation cause you might be setting yourself up for months of resentment and misery everyime you look at her. Also, with any luck you'll be UTD yourself before long, and you might prefer a bit of apace. Obviously its your choice, but if we're talking months not weeks, well it could be hard to cope with.

As for me. Day 6. Still BFN and no sign of AF. Totally f***ing over this!!!!! :angry:
Sorry I know Im no fun ATM. To top it off DD has worked out how to climb on our glass coffee table which we were using to block her from our monsterous tellie. I had to move said table cause its too dangerous, now shes pressing the buttons and banging on the screen of the TV. Its got that perspexy type screen and it wobbles eveytime she goes near it, so I have to go in search of some kind of play pen thingy to go around it before she stuffs my tv. Ill be pushing my luck to find one in our town that I dont have to special order, or is affordable.

OK had my daily sooky la la episode. Will be back later when I have something more pos to contribute. :redface:

Beaksie - Maybe Baby measures estrogen surges so if your hormones are out of whack like mine are (probably due to my age) it doesn't really work well. I have high estrogen levels (well I did have on both occasions I was tested). When I used it when I was younger it seemed to work OK but I only conceived once in 8 years of using it.


I had a .3 rise in temp this morning so am getting a little more nervous. Nose is quite blocked so maybe it's just a cold coming on.

Hi Satya - thanks for the info about Maybe Baby. Want to try something else, but the logical part of me says Ive conceived 4 times without doing all that so Im really in 2 minds about the whole thing. Thought it might be interesting to know my cycle a bit better though. Might help save me from stupid waits like this one. If I knew when or even IF I o'd this cycle, I might have more idea about whether AF is coming iykwim.
Your symptoms sound promising, Ive got my fingers crossed 4 you. Im so glad youve sorted out stuff with DP. Does this mean you're back TTC (properlY) again? Or are you gonna wait a bit, if this cycle doesnt turn out to be the one??

Beaksie, I'd suggest temping. If you do that you can tell the day you O and also work out when AF is about to arrive (from the temp drop & because of your luteal phase). I've found it very handy to know when AF is due. I used to think I was a 28 day cycle and found this not to be the case once I started temping and I also found a get AF 11-12 days after Oing. I'd recommend temping for sure. We are not TTCing as such as the timing really is not right, we just weren't careful. Also I haven't had my lap yet so a pregnancy probably will not survive until I have the D&C done. It would probably be best if I'm not pg because if I am it will be stressful.... worrying if it's the right thing to do while we are trying to heal things but also worrying about the possibility of another m/c and all the damage it did to our relationship last time.

Hi Girls,

Beaksie - I can't believe your Af still hasn't arrived. Do you plan to have a BT done soon?
As for me, Af arrived today, which was unexpected (4 days early) and a big disappointment. I guess it was such a short cycle (24 days) that we didn't bd on the right day for 0? I had a very regular 28 day cycle b 4 m/c and now i have no idea what my cycle is doing. Is temping the best way to work out 0 when cycle irregular? I went to my naturopath yesterday and she is going to put me on some herbs to improve my general wellbeing - so i guess that's something. And another cycle begins......

Bunny'smum - i know what you mean about the cycles being @@#$ since the m/c, mine are shorter and im O a few days earlier than normal.....all very confusing and frustrating if you ask me !!!!
best of luck with it all though.

hugs
treelo

Hi all,

Beaksie, I tried the maybe baby for a number of cycles, and I've ended up returning it to a box in my bedside drawer. I couldn't say that it was sensitive enough for me (or maybe too sensitive) - I would be 'ferning' more days than not in my cycle, so I really couldn't distinguish between what was true ovulation ferning & then what was fake ferning IYKWIM. This is my second cycle now using OPKs, and have found them to be more accurate at pinpointing ovulation. I also chart temps, but I'm such a poor sleeper (always have been) that I have no doubt that my nightly (2.00am) rendevous with a cup of milo in the lounge in front of the TV has an effect on my readings.

Sorry for the lack of personals to other forum members - I feel that I know each of you very well because I read your updates daily, but I must admit I have a tendency to only reply to those questions I feel confident in responding to. I can empathise with everyone in this forum with the angst, and the anxiety, and the OCD tendencies we all seem to share alike. I really hope that we can all move on out of this forum into bigger & better forums very soon (ie PAML) - no offense meant by this of course!

Hello everyone,

Before i forget can someone teel me what rofl stands for - i just have to know!!

Beaksie - you have got us all in suspense :pray: that you have some great news for us soon.

missbelinda - hello there - all the best getting the big O this month :D

hi treelo - gosh what a difficult situation for you - i hope you go with your gut feeling and make a decision keeping in mind what is best for you and your family :) best of luck & yes my cycles are all over the place too :wall:

hi bunny - yes i agree cycles are all over the place after mc &/ d& C - my first af after my d& c was 28 days and my second af took 32 days.

I would have to agree with satya :clap: (hello there) and say that it is worthwhile temping especially when your cycles are not regular
I don't have a lot of experience with it but i have decided to give it a go cause i've got nothing to lose - I sort of feel empowered (sorry couldn't think of a better word) and a bit more in control of things since starting to temp and taking note of the CM.

STARRYSKY - HELLO!! Yes I was told that taking your temp vaginally is the most accuate for tracking your cycle. I hope you don't have any nightmares tonight dear girl.

Me - I am fine not much to tell just about to cook some dinner - mexican yummy
:dance: AnnaBelle

Hi everyone, sorry haven't been on for a while have just taking each day at a time and pretending like I am not anxious and stressed....well I have passed the dreaded 5 week mark which is a relief as things went wrong (stopped progressing) at 5wks the 1st time,then M/C at 5 weeks the 2nd time so now I have passed that milestone (for me anyhow) I am extremely tired....Boobs are reaaly sore :) and never thought I'd be pleased to have morning sickness....it's still on waves now and then but I actually threw up this morning so that's more like me :) I was also very worried about my HCG results....1st one at 12DPO was 32....now today they are 10,000 woo hoo! was I happy with that :) so hopefully this is going to be ok I feel so much better tonight.
Anyhow this was just a quick line as it is late and I am exhausted Hi to everyone sorry no personal's I will try catch up soon.
Take Care and Good luck with what stages you are at....-x-

Hi everyone. Hi Kaib and Annabelle-thanks for the infor re maybe baby and temping. I am leaning towards temping, but will have to make do with taking my temp orally, cause eewwww. Sorry, but between doctors, nurses, etc etc, Ive had enough things up my bits to last a lifetime! (lol) BTW -ROLF roll on floor laughing. At least thats what I THINK it means. Could actually mean any number of other less flattering things, but sure hope not (lol)
Dawnee- So great to hear from you. Im soooo very glad you're doing well! I just know this one's coming home...
Starrysky - Hows things in your neck of the woods chick?
Satya- Anymore symptoms? Hope youre well.

As for me. STILL waiting. How bloody boring. Have had a few minor cramps earlier, and (just for a change) have been a moody cow all arvo. With any luck this might mean AF is finally going to show. At least I could get geared up for next month. Talk about the TWW from hell!!

Beaksie - my temp is still up, I still have a stuffy nose but am otherwise OK healthwise. Bleeding gums still but I have had that as well in one none pregnant cycle. I'm finding I'm really tired much earlier than I normally am. Cried watching Oprah this morning and it wasn't even sad. Sore BBs last night lying in bed. Oh, and yesterday had the worst ever skin outbreak - only a couple on my face but some absolutely volatile ones on my chest and neck that hurt like hell. The problem is that so many pg symptoms are also pre AF symptoms so you can't really tell anything from them. The thing that is promising is the tiredness and stuffy nose but as lots of people have colds at the moment that might be nothing too.

Bye the way you being really moody could be a good sign for you. I remember last time I was pregnant I was extremely moody before I tested positive so you could still be in with a chance.

Thanks Beaksie: Hopefully things will be okay this time third time lucky eh? :) I am feeling more like my normal pregnancies with the nausea so that's good I rang my OB today shhe wants me to have an U/S next week at 7 weeks and I'm seeing her on the 12/11.
Sorry you are still in Limbo and waiting It must be so frustrating hang in there.
Treelo: How you doing? Big decision about your friends Daughter coming to stay? Make sure you do what's right For YOU!
Satya: Goodluck on the TWW....I am so behind on goss I didn't realise you were Back with your Ex....Goodluck anyhow ;) anyone else I've missed sorry like I said I'm so behind on where everyones at but I hope we get a run of BFP's soon and we can chat more in the PAML thread :)

DAY 7. NO AF. BFN :(
Hi girls-
Dawnee - So glad you're good. Good luck with your U/S next week, Ill be thinking of you. Im sure you'll see a gorgeous little bean snuggled in with a nice strong heartbeat. Nothing beats it for reassurance.;)
Satya- Am definitely hearing you about the symptoms. So hope this is your month. Maybe it's meant to be??? Not long to go now...unless you're like me.
Starrysky- how you doin out there in cyber land??
Treelo- Gday. Hope you're doing OK in your TWW
Everybody else :hello:
As for me, well thought AF was maybe on the way, but no such luck. Still no bloody sign. Have booked an appointment with gp for Tues next week. Figure by then either AF will def be here (so can cancel appt) or if pg, Hcg should be sufficient to be detected by BT. Either way, am prepared to wait it out. :rolleyes:
Dont really have much other choice do I??

Hi Satya & ladies !!

Hey Satya - I could be your symptom twin at the moment - 13 dpo (althoug I'm not 100% sure when I o'd, so could only be 10dpo) - stuffy nose for over a week, sore bb's for over a week, and yesterday feeling VERY moody and snappy, big zit outbreak on my face, lots of creamy cm - and a layer of tiredness that just shouldn't be there - getting plenty of sleep/rest.

I tested on 10dpo and 12 dpo - bfn's. My last pretnancy I tested those same days too, and was negative. Didn't get a BFP until the afternoon of 14dpo.

So, I'm quietly suspicious - but will have to WAIT :rolleyes: not now game to test again - would rather wait till CD29, when I can be pretty sure AF is getting late, to test again.

Good luck - you will probably be pregnant when you least expect it - glad to see you and DP and having another try, I wish you a tonne of happiness.

BEAKSIE - I've been following your "no AF" journey - what a PAIN - are you still SANE girl??? Hope you get a BFP anyday :pray:

Dawnee - glad to see this one is looking sticky!!! :clap:

Hello to everyone else in this thread - I've been a bit lax in posting for a while, but I do read sometimes.

BFP vibes to us all !!!

Lee xo

Lee- Glad to see your symptoms are looking good. Best of luck for a BFP!

As for me, sane....thats a relative term! Id say Im at the crazy,end of the scale, but that changes daily. Thanks for following my journey, hopefully there's an outcome sooner rather than later!!

hi guys,

Beaksie - I dont know how you are doing it - managing to sound sane, that is. mwahhhahaha*evil laugh* nah, Im not being mean, sooooo hope this is tha start of a mass exodus to paml thread.;)

lee- sounds very promising......best of luck to you for a BFP

Dawnee- so nice to see you again! I am so glad everthing is ok :stickyvibesgirl::stickyvibesboy:

satya- Hope you are feeling better if it is just a cold coming on, if not like beaksie said, maybe it is meant to be.

Anaabelle- how are you? thankyou for the info and no I havent been having any bad dreams, this week any way

hello kaib- I hope you are well, so where are you at with your cycle? do you temp, chart etc? (just trying to give you a reason to post!!!)

treelo- I have missed you dear, hard decision that one, I am sure we are all here to support you wichever way you go.

bunnysmum- I hope the chinese herbs work wonders for you, never used anything like that myself but am interested in the outcome.

well as for me......worked out I am on cd16 , we have bd'd 2x this week so far, am hoping I am in with a chance, no idea if I have o'd as yet though, my calendar (which is based on my old 28 day cycle, who knows whats going on atm!!) says fertile period starts today, last cycle was only 26 days, so if still short I would assume I o'd earlier - this is soo confusing, cant think straight to even type it!!
anyway, I have my dps 26th birthday tomorrow, we are having a big party on sat night, so I will prolly be quiet till next week.
hope you girls all have a fantastic weekend, hello to everyone I missed
kbowman if you are reading, I never thought you were invisible, come back......
xxxx

Evening ladies,

Just a quick one (I always say that and end up posting an essay anyway!!)

Beaksie!!! Good luck on Tuesday with your doctors appt fingers crossed ;)

Bunny's mum - sorry i forgot to say sorry that AF arrived - it will be fine - hey if the cycles are going to be shorter that means more chances IFYKWIM - (less time to wait to try again to catch that egg!)

STARRYSKY - I am fine - good luck with your bd at the moment !! I am sure that with your DP birthday you are sure to get some more bd over the weekend :D

Hello to everyone else and have a great night xo
Anna

Hi everyone,

Lee - those symptoms are looking very good. I hope this is your lucky cycle. I have a feeling it will be. I had that feeling last time round for you and I was right.... let's hope my psychic abilities are still working for you. Looks like you and I will be testing around the same time so fingers crossed for a double BFP for us and then we could be belly buddies.

11DPO for me today. My temp is still up. I've added my last pregnancy chart and my current chart to my ticker if anyone wants to have a look. My BBs were sore again in bed last night, during the day they just feel heavy. No spotting whatsoever which is very unusual for me- it normally starts between 7DPO to 10DPO and continues until I get AF except if I'm pregnant. Light cramping this morning. Fell asleep watching my favorite TV show of the moment (Bodies, probably should stop watching it before it puts me completely off child birth). I have had to have a pie for my lunch for the last 3 days running at work. Yesterday I even took lunch to work but when I heard the truck arrive off I rushed to get the particular pie that I just can't seem to live without at the moment. Starting to get quite nervous. Roll on Sunday morning so I can test.

Satya - I feel nervous for both of us....... I woke up at 3am, couldn't get back to sleep - thought about testing, but decided I didn't want bad news that time of day, and thought it's better to wait. So, I think I'll wait to Sunday aswell - we can test the same day!! Actually, I always find the NOT knowing, worse than a definitive answer. Yes, I hope your phsycic abilities are spot on!! Oh wouldn't it be fine if you were utd and this one sticks, a really little fiesty one that digs its claws in deep and doesn't let go.......:pray:

I tell you, my mood has been FOUL...... this could of course be pre-af, I'm just so snappy and grouchy.......... for no particular reason........... what does it all mean.......aarrrgghhh. Did you get much light cramping in the days before your bfp's ?? I felt a bit bloated down there yesterday, and still feel a bit heavy thismorning - could be an af thing, but not sure??

Beaksie - spill the beans, how much $$$ have you spent on HPTs this cycle??? Any news??

Hello to everyone else !

Lee xo

Hi. No news. Boring, cranky, miserable, p*****ed off etc.
I reckon Ive easily spent over $100 on hpts this month. Bloody ridiculous! Will order them online next month. Cranky, cranky CRANKY!!!!

hello everyone,
hmmm tmi warning but here goes, when i went to the loo this morning i noticed a tiny bit of brownish red cm on the paper when I wiped, could this be implantation???? have never noticed anything like that before?? Dont want to get too excited obviously cos who knows what could happen....has my head spinning as it is.
roll on tuesday, next week in general, I want to see all these BFPS!!!
CATCH YOUS ALL LATER.
XXXX

Dont know about implantation chick, cause I've never had it, though the timing would seem to fit. I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you. Hoping you get one helluva BIG FAT positive!

Hi Ladies, I have been thinking of you all. 23 days till my wedding so I'm a bit preoccupied but I still read my email updates.

Hoping to come back to lots of BFPs.

Evening ladies,

Thank god it is friday!!!:clap:

Beaksie - My god i am so excited for you - I am hoping that you are going to announce your :bfp: very very soon !!!!!!!

STARRYSKY - Hello dear girl - wow that sounds very intersting - are you thinking implantation ?? :dance: Tell me more!!

Hello Wowzer - getting married so very soon wow!!!! :D That is so exciting I got married almost a year ago myself - it is such an exciting and stressful time so all the best to you :)

sorry not much to report - DH & I just went for a huge walk and now just had a beer to cool down afterwards so maybe we shall bd later :lol: -
Thank god it is Friday!!!!!!!
Hi to everyone
AnnaBelle

Hi Annabelle- Glad you're relaxing with a beer.... Ive just had a midstrength myself. I know, I know tww and all that, but 1. One midstrength isnt gonna hurt, 2. I'll prob wake to find AF, though have been saying that for a week 3. I bloody need it!
Its been stinkin hot here, 35C and soooo humid. Took dd to the local pool this morning, which Id say will become a habit, cause from here on in the heat up here is pretty unbearable.
Had to change my doc appt to next Thurs, as DD's swimming lessons start Tues morn. Whatever! As you can tell, not excited as Im not expecting anything. Have a nasty feeling, this wait is going to end in the Mother of all Afs!
Wowzer - glad to see you're still around. Goodluck with the wedding preps. So excited for you.
Starrysky - How was your Fri? Anything exciting planned for the weekend???
Everyone else GDAY!!! Hope you all have a happy (and productive hehe) weekend!!

hey all,
just thought I would join in your forum as just about start a FET after the loss of our bubba at 12weeks gestataion.
Today is day 1 so going for a scan on day 10 to see how we are going and hoping for a FET around 2 more weeks
fingers cross that this one works as this is a last frostie bub and last cycle we can afford until next year!!!
Our bubba was conceived after trying for four years this time around and several IVF attempts. I lost my bubba without any warning when i went for my scan at 12 weeks only to discover that the heart had stopped a couple of days before. So far all the testing i have had cannot find a reason why it happened.
so here we are back at the start and hoping and praying for a miracle again
thats it in a nutshell and look foward to hopefully graduating from this forum soon and taking you all with me-Sounds like a great plan hey!!!!
game on time
odette

Odette - hello muchkin and welcome. I had the same experience as you, a missed miscarriage at 12 weeks, discovered at the 12 week scan. It was so upsetting and i know how you must have felt. This was a while ago for me, but we went on to have a healthy bub, and i know you will too. (Have had another recent m/c but am not giving up!)

Beaksie - oh my goooooooooooooooooooosh hun. I hope you find out soon one way or another. I reckon i wouldn't have stopped at one beer; i would have had the whole damn case i would be so frustrated!!!!!

Satya and Lee - wow girls - sounds so positive for you both - those symptoms sound great. Bring on the BFP's and start off a great wave of BFP's for us all!

Wowzer - how exciting about your wedding matey. All the best to you for it.

Annabelle - happy BDing this weekend matey.

StarrySky - hi munchky, how u doing?

Big hi's to everyone else. Big hugs too.

Well, my news... I am SOOOOOOOOOOO grumpy today. I couldn't believe how emotional i was this morning at work, i just burst into tears over the tiniest thing that i would normally not even think twice about. Then i was so grouchy and angry all day for no particular reason, which completely destroyed my Friday. I am so annoyed at myself but i just couldnt shake it. I can't wait to get to sleep tonight and hopefully wake up in a happier mood. SO EMOTIONAL - This is either a huge dose of PMT or ... nope, just not gonna think it cos i don't want to get my hopes up like i do every month.

And to top it all off, another woman at work is now pregnant (that makes five now)- without apparently trying. (GRRRRRRRR.) I hate how they always have to throw that in. Even though they don't know how hard it has been for us, i still feel like it is a punch in the face. Anyone else feel like that? How is best to deal with the crap way it makes you feel?

Anyway, sorry to be such a moody grumpy-bum. Best place for me is my bed i think. Chat soon.
LSB xoxo

Hi ladies I caved and tested just now. 12DPO & I got a :bfp:. It's a little stronger than the faint one I got on 13DPO last time which is encouraging.

As much as I felt that I just might be pregnant I'm still a little shocked because I did nothing to encourage things this cycle, in fact if anything I discouraged it. I drank heaps of coffee at the time I conceived as I was very stressed (I thought both coffee and stress were no good for conception). I've been off the coffee this week since I got the dip in temp....cos I just had a feeling. I havent' taken Vitex for two months either. I did not drink pineapple juice, I did nothing absolutely nothing.

Lee - I have my fingers crossed for a BFP for you tomorrow.

Odette, just want to welcome you - nice to have another IVFer in the group!

Satya, you sneaky thing! I'll be hoping that this is the stickiest BFP ever! Congratulations!

Still not a great deal happening here - just waiting to find out what the next step is and keeping very busy with work!

BW

SATYA - unreal news!!! just unreal!!!!! So happy you got such a lovely unexpected BFP.......... I tell you life just happens when we least expect it...... and I've learnt to always expect the unexpected!!!!!!! Great that line is darker than last time ..... I know you'll be worried........ not much you can do about that, but take it a day at a time, and enjoy being pregnant, hopefully for the next 9 months. How are you feeling??????????? Did you get the moody-ness this time, any cramping the last couple of days?

I have not caved in - I'm so much stronger than you ;) actually, I'm not game to test........ but will do it in the morning anyway. For some reason, I know I won't be upset if it's a negative, as I have faith it will happen very soon anyway. Perhaps it's when we "let go" of all that neediness, thats when things come back at us.

OK, enough lecture - your BFP has DEFINATELY brightened up my day! Good for you Satya!!

Lee xox

Satya OMG, OMG, OMG!!!!
Thats absolutely incredible, I am SOOOOO happy for you!!!:D
Told you it was meant to be !!!!!
Cheers to you, and wishing you an HH preg. Welldone!!
:happyforyou::happyforyou::happyforyou:

Congratulations Satya - what wonderful news for you and your DF!

Thats just wonderful news Satya, best of luck for a wonderful sticky uneventful 9 months.

BW - Glad your keeping busy hun, i think of you often and wonder where your at with everything. Take care and keep us posted. hugs

Beaksie - any sign of AF yet hun?

kbowman - miss you hun

well im just plodding along, focusing on loosing weight to try and lesson the agony of the tww.
hugs to all
treelo