Do good looking people have it easier at work?

[Traveller]

Looks means nothing in my work either as a midwife. It really comes down to experience and your contacts.

Another student has, in the past, suggested that many women would prefer someone like her as a midwife because she is overweight with massive boobs, and therefore "motherly". I, apparently, have the figure of a spinster aunt or sister which will appeal to some but not to most. I **** you not, she said this with a straight face.

[feeb]

Looks means nothing in my work either as a midwife. It really comes down to experience and your contacts.

I know some that do get where they do because of looks and I also rememmber while on mat bumping into a past client whom I had looked after in a previous pregnancy and her commenting that she had been in the know your mw program and her DH commenting on how hot her MW was and her thinking it was funny his comment as he had never been to any of her previous appts for other 2 pregnancys but some how ended up at an appt for 3rd child.

[feeb]

Another student has, in the past, suggested that many women would prefer someone like her as a midwife because she is overweight with massive boobs, and therefore "motherly". I, apparently, have the figure of a spinster aunt or sister which will appeal to some but not to most. I **** you not, she said this with a straight face.

PMSL WTF how can she get by saying crap like that and not LOL

[sushee]

This leads me on to another question: what makes your assessment of your own looks?

Do you feel good about how you look only when others compliment you and validate it? Or by virture of how your dress and/or conduct yourself?

Do you believe you have a very clear sense of how you 'fit' in the beauty scale in comparison to the rest of the world? Or do you think you convince yourself you're not as good looking as you probably are?

[misty]

I personally think it is more about confidence, demeanour, and presentability; rather then 'beauty' as such. These things can definitely have an impact - because it is all about how others see you. I have seen alot of very beautiful women be left behind in their careers because the way they presented themselves (ie, the way they dressed, ect) came across in a way that made people not take them seriously (ie, trampy). In Canberra you will find a wide mixture of women who succeed in their careers, with varying degrees of beauty (some are stunning and others are not far short of ugly), but they all exude confidence, hold and present themselves well, and dress impecably. If you don't have all of these key qualities, then yes you are very likely to be left behind, whilst another who does moves on.

(IMHO - the same goes for men by the way).

[sloane]

Do you believe you have a very clear sense of how you 'fit' in the beauty scale in comparison to the rest of the world?

i think this is true for me. not to say that i don't feel good if other people compliment me but i made a very conscious decision some years ago to not rely on other people to make me happy/look to others for validation but to look inside myself for happiness. i don't necessarily like the way i look & i'd obviously prefer to be far better looking but i can acknowledge other qualities about myself that i believe make me a worthwhile person.

although i will say that i think my perception of myself has dropped since i became a (mostly) SAHM. i find i have less motivation & inclination to look after myself & that is something i need to work on.

[loulabelle]

I think it also depends on industry. when I was younger I worked in retail ( women's fashion) and although it wasn't actually said, they only hired staff that were thin and able to make the clothing look good. even though the shop I worked in sold size 6-16, none of the girls were above a 10. I remember putting forward a girl who was fantastic but about a 16,only to have her knocked back for a girl who was much less experienced, but a size 8.



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[AnyDream]

I think what you're talking about here might be referred to as the 'charm' factor, and in my experience it is just as much about your manner of interacting as well as your appearance, and it's something you can lean on when you're trying to get agreement from people. It's a combination of looking like someone that people might like to know AND also paying attention to them in a way that gives them a bit of a boost, and helps nudge them into your camp.

BTW I think this works for other forms of attractiveness too, not just appearance. Height, thinness, having an accent that hints at socio-economic origins, even what primary school you went to can influence people's opinions. Someone who has won an award for outstandingness or someone who is wealthy and therefore has a different kind of influence can also apply the 'charm factor' to influence people. However there's a whole other set of skills needed to do this well and ensure your ongoing success. All the charm in the world isn't going to help you if you've got no ability to strategise, for example.

Sushee, you have every right to be offended by the insinuation that it is looks rather than skill that have got you where you are. Interestingly, as this NYTimes blog points out, if the people making these comments are other young, single women, there is good reason to believe it could be jealously over an attractive competitor.

[LuluHB]

There was a receptionist nearly 15 odd years ago at a large law firm in Perth who was stunningly attractive and dressed with just the right amount of skin exposure to look sexy but not tarty if that makes sense. When she went to resign after years at the firm she was offered an enormous salary increase to get her to stay. The partners of the firm recognised that her appearance was a huge PR benefit for them. Fortunately she was also good at her job and lovely so nobody (ie other women) wanted to stab her with a pitch fork.

In my pre-baby days when I would go to the pool and gym daily I think I had a pretty great body . It was just me so I spent a lot of money on good clothes that suited me and I knew most days walking out of the house that I looked pretty good and could hold my own with most people. Didn't stop me getting a bit of a lift though when someone commented on my appearance - more particularly though if it was a woman because then I knew it was because I genuinely did look good, not just that my boobs looked particularly big and perky that day! Those days are long gone though and while I still have days where I can look in the mirror and think, yeah you're still not too bad, I have far less confidence in myself. I think that confidence then translates directly to how people perceive you whether in a work or social environment.

[AnyDream]

And yes, I suspect the importance placed on physical appearance varies wildly according to the industry you work in. For eg, I can't imagine that being slim and immaculately metrosexually groomed would do you any favours if you were a bloke going for a road construction job

[sushee]

The person who initially said to me that she didn't think she'd like me, is in fact my age and incredibly good at her job her job. She leaves me in the dust technically. But she admits I leave her in the dust when it comes to managing relationships with people, and she attributes this to my looks. She says she can see people actually smile when they see me, even if they don't know me, but feels that she comes off as someone that people prefer not to spend time with. The thing is, she's not unattractive at all, but I think she thinks she is, and dresses and conducts herself accordingly.

I also got invited to join an area just today that she was put up for. Now I get paid whether I work for a client or not, she doesn't, she's an independent contractor. But for what they need, she would have been absolutely perfect. They need technical software skills, not a project manager. But they were adamant they want me and not her. Did they just prove her point?

[Amity]

I think it's not just about looks, but about how you present yourself, eg clothing, style, personality.

I find some people extremely attractive because of their personality, which has NOTHING to do with their looks. But I think I'm in the minority there.

In my job, it's about how you dress - clothes, shoes, makeup - as well as knowing what you're doing. Unfortunately I can't say I get it "easier", or who gets it "easier", because ultimately it's not about me - it's about my client's case. If my client has a loser of a case, it wouldn't matter if I were a glamazon, because the case is still a loser.

However, in my industry, there is a lot of perception about looks - ugly barristers don't get the better types of cases unless they're wonderfully good at being a barrister! But women are treated differently to men - we don't get the best work, we don't get paid as much, and we don't get in the paper/kudos as much either. So gender, as well as looks, has a huge impact in law.

Mind you, I'm sure there are some awfully ugly legal people out there... including judges!

[LuluHB]

I also got invited to join an area just today that she was put up for. Now I get paid whether I work for a client or not, she doesn't, she's an independent contractor. But for what they need, she would have been absolutely perfect. They need technical software skills, not a project manager. But they were adamant they want me and not her. Did they just prove her point?

I don't think its as simple as that Sushee. If she comes across as potentially *****ly to clients because she lacks confidence in her own appearance or ability to deal with people, then that DOES affect her ability to do the job. Sure, the technical, background actual grunt part of the work is very important, but making a client FEEL confident that they are getting the job down well is a big part of it too. You are obviously a great people person and that's part of the job description too.

[sushee]

The thing is, aside from the initial meeting to scope the work, she'd be working almost autonomously on MS Project, and I swear, she's an absolute gun at it. I, on the other hand, am a PM, with PM skills and qualifications, and while I've got fairly advanced MS Project skills, I'm not anywhere as good as her. Different skill sets altogether. I actually argued AGAINST me going because I don't know if I can do it. I have other opportunities here too that are more aligned with my skills, but this area has never let someone in from the PMO before because they're so insular. I'm the first person they've ever asked, so I've been told I'm going.

I just spoke to her and she just shrugged and rolled her eyes. We're friends now, so I know she's not blaming me, but she said yesterday that they'd want the 'pretty' one and she just feels like her opinion on it has been validated. Which is a shame.

[krysalyss]

I am a science post-grad and I think the situation is mixed where I am. Firstly when you submit your work only that is assessed (by people who generally don't know you) but when it comes to getting extra work then I think attractiveness pays off. It is a combination of general good looks with good dressing and confidence. I am a normal looking person with no dress sense and low confidence until I know someone well (e.g. if someone snubs me if will tend to shake my confidence and in this field almost everyone is pretty confident or even arrogant). But the quality of my work is fine thankfully. So I don't get left behind but I don't really push forward in the networking stakes. The factors are so inter-related I don't think it is easily attributed to just the one.

[briggsy's girl]

The person who initially said to me that she didn't think she'd like me, is in fact my age and incredibly good at her job her job. She leaves me in the dust technically. But she admits I leave her in the dust when it comes to managing relationships with people, and she attributes this to my looks. She says she can see people actually smile when they see me, even if they don't know me, but feels that she comes off as someone that people prefer not to spend time with. The thing is, she's not unattractive at all, but I think she thinks she is, and dresses and conducts herself accordingly.

do you remember a convo we had not that long ago - about the poppet? about how she doesn't take to some people, but she met you, and within seconds, you were best friends. she's TWO. she doesn't know SQUAT about society and it's view of beauty/attraction. she took to you because you are an engaging person. your eyes engage people. your smile. YOU engage people. it's not about your size, your look, how you dress - hell, the first time we met IRL you were in the equivalent of pajamas!! it was YOU. if your colleague doesn't have the type of personality that engages someone from the get go, then of course you're going to be a mile ahead of her when it comes to your interactions with clients etc

you could have an identical twin. you with your personality, the twin with hers - and you'd still come up trumps in that situation

[Astrid]

I certainly know I have been passed over for jobs and actively discriminated against in the work place due to my weight (along with other things, I think there is never just the one thing)

10+ years ago when I was first looking for work in Melbourne, I could wow them with my resume, wow them with a phone interview, but within 5 minutes of the interview I would "Oh, you don't have a degree" well, derr, you knew that from my resume and from talking to me prior. I would then look around the office and see all the women were thin. May be it was part presentation? I don't know. Pretty sure I dressed the part.

When I finally did get myself a good job where I was hired on skill, I had a manager come in who was all about looks. He loved the other girls in the team who were not overweight. He hated me from the start, yes we did have differing personalities/backgrounds, but I worked out later a lot of it was due to my weight. During my time there I lost a lot of weight. The more weight I lost, the more his hate for me diminished. He stopped trying to get me fired and was actually upset when I resigned to move onto a better job. I also noticed during that time that other staff become friendlier as the kilos dropped.

There was a cute, eye lash flashing, big boobed girl in my team. She got away with everything, she really was not that great at her job, she put in heaps of hours (which was seen as great, not as her covering her in competencies). I caught her stealing from the company, the same manager let her off "as a mistake", stupid really she later stole almost $50k from the company. I know if I had done what I first caught her doing, I would either received a severe warning or even lost my job.

It sucks it really does, but looks are really only one factor in treatment in the work place.

[myturn]

I used to work in unemloyment services (i.e recruting and getting unemployed people into jobs) and we had a guy start working with us that had previously been a regional manager for a large take away company, and he actually said that if he went into the restaurant and there was an unattractive girl at the front register he would go out the back to the manager and ask why she was there and to get her out the back!

I kid you not, I was young at the time, so didn't say anything, but I was horrified!

I do think it depends on the industry though, and I'm not sure it's always a conscious thought - rather something that most people do without reaslising.

TBH, I think we need to admit to ourselves that if someone is 'weird looking' it's easier to ignore them or pass them over for someone else - it's only till we get to know them that we realise their strengths.... its like hiring someone with little experience and giving them a chance to prove themselves. Someone has to give them that chance!