Do you believe in evolution or what your holy book says?

[Maruschke]

Do you believe that God has pre-determined when we will die before/as we are born or do we control as to when we are going to die?
This question is applicable to ALL religions, so all responses appreciated

Yep, I believe the time of our birth, and the length of our life, are pre determined in advance. God makes promises in His Word. How can He make promises if He doesn't know what will happen?

Of course, I am speaking from a christian perspective. If you want the christian scriptures, let me know.

EDIT Bron... did you say there was a 'questions' thread that we could ask questions about Islam?

[Maruschke]

Just another thought, but I am not sure whether or not it is relevant to a muslim .

As christians, there are two vital elements for salvation. Repentence of sins, and belief that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Other things are quite important to our faith, but not vitally essential for salvation. For this reason, people can be unsure / doubt / even be wrong about their views on evolution / creation, without damaging their salvation.

Now, I do believe it is very important to believe everything that the bible says, but I would not assume that someone is unsaved because they have a different interpretation of the story of creation in the bible to me, or a belief about creation that is incompatable with the bible.

Other christians might disagree with me, but this is just my opinion.

For you... I wonder whether there is an analogous concept of salvation and minimum requirements / beliefs for salvation in Islam?

Forgive me if I am way off topic .

[Phteven]

As christians, there are two vital elements for salvation. Repentence of sins, and belief that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Other things are quite important to our faith, but not vitally essential for salvation. For this reason, people can be unsure / doubt / even be wrong about their views on evolution / creation, without damaging their salvation.

Now, I do believe it is very important to believe everything that the bible says, but I would not assume that someone is unsaved because they have a different interpretation of the story of creation in the bible to me, or a belief about creation that is incompatable with the bible.


For you... I wonder whether there is an analogous concept of salvation and minimum requirements / beliefs for salvation in Islam?

Forgive me if I am way off topic .

We believe that Allah can choose to forgive anything but he will not forgive disbelief. In saying this it doesn't mean that non-Muslims will automatically go to hell. The Quran says quite specifically that there will be non-Muslims who will go to heaven because of their piety and charity and if a person has had no chance to be properly acquainted with the true teachings of Islam then they will not be condemned for that because it is beyond their control.
If you believe something that is wrong and you do so in good faith then it is my understanding that it is ok.

[Maruschke]

Bron, I am amazed at the similarities, I have never really studied it in depth. Thanks for sharing.

The direction I was headed for TD is that... although we might doubt about things like creation, and even other things, we will not loose our salvation while we struggle to work it all out, so long as we keep the faith. (I am saying we, but this is from my perspective.)

In the bible, some of the early followers of Jesus struggled with the concept of communion, and they left in droves. Even the disciples struggled to understand it. Here is what happened (and I love what Simon Peter says)...

John 6 (NIV)
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

I guess what I am saying is that it is ok to search, question, seek, not have full comprehension, when we are safely within our faith.

Personally, I have drifted to and fro in my interpretation of creationism from Genesis. I have done much research into day-age theory, theistic evolution, old earth creationism etc. I will never be certain of exactly how God created. I believe He did create... whether or not He used evolution to do so is another matter! He could have fast-forwarded the evolutionistic process to occur in 6 days, He could have slowed down the days, He could have done it literally as described, He could have set the evolutionary process running and interjected to induce speciation. He is God, He could have done anything. But while I will never be certain (beyond agreeing that the description in Genesis is an honest representation of what He did do) I will be certain of my faith and salvation.

Sorry if I have gone way off topic.

[~Saram~]

What a great thread - I love seeing this dialogue between Christians and Muslims as we share so many of the same scriptures, beliefs and values and it is awesome to see such a great religious debate happening overlapping both faiths.

As for evolution - ditto what has already been said by Brontide and others about evolution beig the scientific explaination of Gods creation and time being irrelevent to God or in a different context to the human understanding of time. Honestly I don't know how anyone can honestly study evolution and not have a deepened faith in regards to the miracle of Gods creation.

pre-determination - I too believe that there is a plan for everyone and that God has seen what is to come (psalm 139:16 "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be". ) I also feel that each of us has a journey to go on to become who we are meant to be or to effect another one and that in the "big picture" our life or the experiences in our life are just a cascade leading to greater changes in the world. If you consider something that happens in your life that you might struggle with and overcome, share that with another, who shares it with another which gives them the strength to overcome a similar obstacle and then become Prime Minister IYKWIM.

[butterfly_warrior]

Just because God knows what is going to happen and when we are going to die doesn't necessarily mean He plans it for us.

And I think that's about all I can say on the topic of predestination/free will at this point in time (too tired, too sick to communicate clearly). Sometimes it feels like it's a bit of a cop out, but God is just way too big for our puny little human brains to comprehend fully.

BW

[Maruschke]

BW I understand feeling like people use it as a cop-out. I think both free will and determinism can co-exists, without man blaming God (hey God, you determined this, so I'm not going to take responsibility for my decisions ).

Some scriptures come to mind...

Jesus as the "Author"

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Predestination (election)

Ephesians 13Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will? 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Equally, I could find scripture that says that we must choose... (but X needs a feed and I need to get ready for BB meet-up so I will come back later today).

[Nettie]

I'm a Pagan and believe that there is both destiny / fate and randomness occurring at all times.

Not to trivialise, but like Forrest Gump said 'I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.'

I also believe in evolution as a natural state of progress. The Gods have put the divine breath into every living thing, so any evoltion is purely brought about by the divine.

It's a very hard concept to describe in words, so feel free to question and hopefully I can clarify.