Do you believe in evolution or what your holy book says?

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

The whole person of who Jesus is and our relationship with him is the big sticking point on why I am not converting to the JWs! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God - he is light from light and true God from true God. An angel, even an archangel, is less than that. So therefore how could Jesus be who the Bible claims he is if he's just a mere angel?

And anyone who says Richard Dawkins hasn't turned evolution into a religion obviously hasn't read those books of his! I can see fanaticism on both sides of the argument from various people and that's why I'll defend the other side to the hilt. Personally, I can doubt carbon dated (and always have; radioactive decay isn't the greatest way to date something) and exactly HOW and WHY any amoeba would think going multicellular was a good idea, as it were - but then again, I can see how evolution happens once you do have multicellular organisms. I can see how the heart evolved. How lungs evolved. How the circulatory system happened is awesome and wonderful and that's another thing I can't see happening without God, even if I can see some of the steps.

It's a fascinating and interesting study, but I just can't believe that we started from goo with NO extra help. That just seems crazy.

[Peg]

The whole person of who Jesus is and our relationship with him is the big sticking point on why I am not converting to the JWs! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God - he is light from light and true God from true God. An angel, even an archangel, is less than that. So therefore how could Jesus be who the Bible claims he is if he's just a mere angel?

Thats completely understandable. We've been told for so long that Jesus is God, why should we doubt it. This issue is what originally divided the early church into two opposing groups. So i understand your position.

But there really are scriptural reasons to at least consider the possibility. For instance, Micheal the Arch Angel is said to be the one who defeated Satan and his demons from the heavens in Revelation 12:7. Jesus wasnt mentioned there even though it was said prophetically of Jesus at

Psalm 110:1, 2: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’ The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: ‘Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.’”

We know that it is Jesus who sits at Gods right hand. And according to Jesus, he also is the one commissioned to act on Gods behalf. Only the Lamb/Jesus is said to be crowned as the one who leads the angels to defeat Gods enemies at
Rev 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!” 2*And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest

Also he said this himself:
Matt 24:30*And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

We have to honestly ask, if Jesus is NOT the arch angel, then why is the archangel performing the tasks that were assigned to the savior Jesus Christ?

Its a question worth thinking about at lease.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

The whole person of who Jesus is and our relationship with him is the big sticking point on why I am not converting to the JWs! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God - he is light from light and true God from true God. An angel, even an archangel, is less than that. So therefore how could Jesus be who the Bible claims he is if he's just a mere angel?

If thats whats stopping you LZ, prepare to get baptised

We don't worship Jesus as a God - he even told the Jews several times that his power came, not from himself, but from 'Him that sent me', being Jehovah. However, we do hold him in higher regard than your run of the mill angel, because Jesus was the first. Jesus was the ONLY thing Jehovah created by himself - everything else was done with Jesus' help. Jesus is to be a ruler, as we see in Revelation, because the 144,000 will 'rule as kings and priests with him'. No other angel has that privilege, because there is no-one higher than Jesus, except Jehovah.

Is that how its been explained to you before, or have I confused the situation?

Epacris - well said, we should show you the same understanding you've shown us I'm sure the Bible must seem like science fiction to people who don't believe it!

[Cricket]

About Jesus being an angel.....


Hebrews 1:
- "For to which of the angels did God ever say 'You are my Son, today I have become your Father'?"
- "When God brings his firstborn into the world, he says 'Let all God's angels worship him'"
- "But about the Son he says 'Your throne, O GOD, will last forever and ever....'"

Isaiah 9:
- For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given..... And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

John 1:
- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God."

Phillipians 2:
- Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who being in very nature, God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, and being made in human likeness. And, being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross."

When the Pharisees questioned Jesus about his authority, he told them that "Before Abraham was, I AM" and they picked up stones to stone him, because they knew and understood that he was claiming God's covenant name "I AM" for himself.

Revelation 1:
"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God...... And when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man......and he said "'Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last....'" They make the same claims about who they are - both are eternal.

Revelation 19:
- "Then the angel said to me 'Write" Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb.....' and I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you..... Worship God!'" and we also see in Revelation 5 (among other places) all of heaven worshippingthe Lamb - Jesus Christ. He is worshipped as God, and if he isn't God, this is blasphemy.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Just questioning Cricket, are you saying that those who don't believe in the Trinity doctrine are blasphemous? As a JW I don't believe in the Trinity, and I can also quote scriptures supporting my belief, but I would never call anyone who does believe it blasphemous

Of course, if I've misinterpreted your post just let me know

[Cricket]

What I'm trying to say, is that if someone worships anything or anyone other than God, the Bible calls that blasphemy, or idolatry. We may only worship God (first and second commandments, and many other texts). So if we're going to worship Jesus (and the Bible says we should!), he must be God, IMO. Not trying to offend anyone here, just saying what the Bible says.

[Arcadia]

This discussion is so interesting and shows that even interpretations of the bible can vary greatly. I think it is better to see all information as subjective and debatable rather than absolute truth, just as this thread demonstrates both science and the bible are debatable. This thread proves there is no absolute truth, but the only information that is 'most true' or suited to each individual and culture.

[Nelle]

Arcadia, if there's no absolute truth, then my whole way of living is pointless, and every moment I've spent believing in God is a waste of time. I don't think I can make something true or untrue just by having an opinion on it. Anything's debatable, but I think the point of the debate is to get to the truth.

I know not everyone believes in absolute truth, but for me, if there's no absolute truth then my faith in an absolutely true God doesn't make much sense.

We all disagree, but I think many of us have come to terms with the fact that someone is wrong. And we have respectful discussion within that understanding. I mean - it's fine to say that something is 'most true' for people, but at the end of the day, when it comes to me and a Jewish or Muslim or Athiest friend - only one of us will be right - because of what our faiths are based on. Either there is a God or there's not. Either Jesus is God or he's not. He can't be God for me and not exist for someone else. It sounds like an aggressive point of view, but it's just matter of fact to me. If someone else is right, then I'm wrong. And if I'm right, then someone else is wrong. I've heard about many paths to the same God, but given that many faiths don't subscribe to that theory - even if many paths is right, that would make the faith wrong.

I love that we can have kind and respectful discussion in here. I love our community for that. I think we're all searching for the truth, but I don't think we're all right. xo

[Peg]

[qs=Cricket]What I'm trying to say, is that if someone worships anything or anyone other than God, the Bible calls that blasphemy, or idolatry. [/qs]

Hi Cricket, I just wanted to say that you've made a very important point about Christian worship. Its for this very reason that we take the trinity doctrine very seriously because what the trinity doctrine does is introduce 3 'individuals' all worthy of worship....yet, as you've stated, only God is to be worshiped.

A lot of people think the same way as you do which is why they studied the trinity doctrine, turned it inside out and upside down in order to determine if worshiping a trinity is contrary to what we know God requires....that is to worship him alone. The early christian church became divided over this very issue because when the trinity was introduced, it was not based on any of the NT writings....it was based on pagan religions. And the fact is that worshiping a trinity IS in direct contradiction to what God requires which is why many reject it. However, this does not mean that we do not view Jesus as our Lord and King. We certainly do. The thing is that he is only our Lord and King because Jehovah has placed him in that position in order to redeem us from sin and death. Knowing that means we continue to worship God alone and thus avoid breaking the command to worship God alone.

The end result of Jesus kingship is explained for us by the Apostle Paul and he clearly shows that there will come a time when Jesus will relinquish his position as our Lord in order for mankind to be reunited with God the Father.

1Cor 15:24 "Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25*For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26*As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27*For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28*But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone"

Jesus whole purpose is to reunite mankind with God the Father. If we are not worshiping God the Father, then we are missing the whole point of what Jesus is trying to accomplish.

[Nelle]

I wonder if it's worth a thread figuring out the differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and (I dunno what to call it) - mainstream Christianity? I'd love to learn more, but I think it is a conversation that deviates off the path of TD's questions. Is anyone interested?