Seperating history and religion

[C~Q]

This is quite jumbled up in my head atm and I apologise if I upset anyone with this post.

I'm Jewish but I don't know if I believe in god. I'm Jewish because my parents are and Jews are a race of people (as in, you can't just "decide" to become Jewish without converting). I struggle with any religion really, I struggle with there being one god and him making people live by certain rules which I personally find irrelavent (sp) to what I think faith should be about. For example - circumcision, not eating pig etc (again please don't think i'm belittling these things if you believe them, I would love to have that kind of faith).

But...I am proud of being a Jew and what they, as a race of people, have been through and achieved and I want my children to feel that too...but when they ask me about the religious side of things I don't know what to tell them.

I know that the things I am mostly proud of, the history is all part of the religion and I feel like I don't have the right be proud because I don't have that faith (does that make sense?). I mean, around 6million Jews were killed during WW2 - a lot of them because they refused to deny there beliefs and here's me saying 'i'm proud to be Jewish but I don't believe in god"

Is any of what i'm saying making sense? I'm just not sure how to pass on my childrens heritage to them without being a hypocrite...

Thanks for listening to my second rambly post of the evening

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Which parts of Jewishness are you proud of? Just a general "yup, that's my genetics"? Or in various achievements? Can you tell your children of the achievements attained by individuals, rather than with the help of God? (BTW, I'd say if it's in the holy texts, it's with the help of God.)

Is it the culture you like? Can you find the bagel bars or something like that? (Sorry if I sound a bit trite, not intended.) Can your children get to know the people, culture and music without the temple?

Good luck with whatever it is you want your children to learn about!

[Inanna]

Mmmm that's a loaded one & I want to answer but I haven't got the neurons working properly to do it!
I will BB tomorrow..

[C~Q]

Thanks Ryn, I think it's the history, the epic story that spans thousands of years, David, the Pyramids, Moses, having the holy land, not having the holy land...this enormous past that we are all part of...(and yes the food esp fish balls Mmmmm).

But even then thats all tied to the spiritual side, I mean i'd love to believe that Moses parted the Red Sea but erm...common sense tells me he didn't! Can I tell the kids the stories and let them make up their own minds? I just hate it when they ask me what I believe and I say I don't know...i'd like to give them guidence. I'm supposed to be the strong one they look to for answers

Thanks Innana, i'll look forward to your thoughts!!!

[Heaven]

Hmm.......difficult because as you said the history and stories all revolve around God.

Can I tell the kids the stories and let them make up their own minds?

Yep, I think that's a good idea.

[Inanna]

Mmm CQ just to throw it out there... I am not a Christian - however, do you really think that the sea couldn't be parted? That magic can't happen? That miracles that are unexplicable don't happen?

Just a thought....

[Bathsheba]

I think I know what you mean...

I'm a Christian but I agree that Jewish heritage has much to be proud of. For years i lived in Melbourne's Jewish 'heart-land' and my DD grew up surrounded by Orthodox Jews walking beside her in at the local shops etc. I was a bit in awe of them as a culture...and always wanted to know more about their traditions. My boss was a Jew too and she made lots of traditional foods... infact recently i tried to replicate a chicken ball soup that she once brought in one winter... it was delish! Maybe you know the name of this soup??? Anyhow.... totally off topic.... but (and I hope I don't offend)... I maybe would just try to relax into the issue a bit. You don't really have to have all the answers immediately... maybe live as you would like your children to live; open-minded to the possibilities. I don't think, and this is JUST my opinion... I don't think you have to say that you don't believe in God. However, if i was in your position I would alternatively convey that you are open to the idea of God (if this is in line with your thoughts). Kids don't need black and white answers... even older ones.... and I find that they can relate to uncertainty quite well. I think more adults could learn from the child-like flexibility... in my faith it is encouraged for adults to maintain this quality.

My DH isn't a firm believer in God... but he manages to convey a strong curiosity with our children. He also finds the historical context of Christianity fascinating... but when it comes to feeling comfortable in church THAT is another thing. His parents wanted nothing to do with religion so kept him right away from churches... he didn't enter one until he was 21... and that was Saint Pauls Cathedral in London!!! He finds this upsetting... his discomfort. When his mother passed away he wanted to celebrate her life in the chapel during the service but all he felt was uncomfortable... hoping that he wouldn't embarrass himself by not knowing when to sit, stand, sing and pray... what do you do when you pray? Where do you look? Do you bow your head and close your eyes? or what? Now he is able to talk about his feelings... but for years the discomfort closed his mind to religion completely. It's for this reason... even though he doesn't completely believe in God... that he totally supports and encourages me taking our kids to church. He simply wants them to grow up knowing what to do. He can't prove whether God exists or not... but one thing he can do is allow them to make up their own minds by knowing the ropes enough to have a balanced perspective. You can't really dismiss something until you know what you are dismissing.

Anyhow this is just how we are dealing with the issue... I'm not prescribing it for you hope I haven't said anything to annoy or offend.

[C~Q]

hope I haven't said anything to annoy or offend.

Oh gosh no! Thank you for you opinion! I think you're right that I don't need to have all the answers, I suppose I can tell them stories and if they chose to believe them then it's their choice and if they ask me if I believe them then i'll just say I really don't know!

I think the soup might be Matzah ball soup? I'll have to ask my Mum, my Step Mum gave me a Jewish cookery book but it's gathering dust in the back of the cupboard

Innana - agghhhhh I don't know!!!!!! I'd love to believe that it happened! But the sensible part of me says it couldn't have...if people were capable of things like that then why haven't we seen it? Why hasn't it been proven IYKWIM??

Do YOU believe it happened? **passes the buck and hides**

[Bathsheba]

Yes! It was a word like Matzah... i'll Google!

The way i look at those amazing miracles depicted in the Bible is this: God does not live in time as we do. He exists simultaneously in the present, the past and the future. He knows All right to the end of days on Earth. Now put yourself in his shoes. How would you try to explain current day events like, say, electricity to people in 10BC? It would sound totally bizarre to them however you put it. Hmmm... it's tricky to explain... but when i read the Bible I don't read it as literal... or mere analogy...but a kind of combination of the two. I read it for intent mainly... but when it comes to the science behind the events I am prepared to be open-minded about it. I think that yes... maybe those seas DID part! maybe there is some truth to it. Every now and then I read those tiny little articles in the newspaper about some discovery or another... for example about human health... most recently about people who can't metabolise mammal protein (I think i might be one of these)... how if people didn't listen to their bodies and therefore make the eating of mammal protein a personal "sin" for themselves then there would be bad consequences for THEM. Maybe this is why is says in the Bible that all food is good... but if YOU think a particular food is sinful them YOU must abide by this. Know what i mean? It goes on that you should respect that other people have labelled some foods sinful and to not serve or tempt them with these foods. How radical is that!??? (For the times). Personally I suspect that in the future many of the traditions upheld in the Bible will start to make sense... that we will have more light-bulb moments and say... 'oh that's why...'.

I live my life knowing that I'm a naive child constantly questioning and doing things despite the warnings... God must look down on me and shake his head and have extreme patience as he waits for me to say "Oh... but I didn't know"... just like my own kids do when they realise that something i nag them about actually has a reason behind it.

From our perspective most of us probably feel really sophisticated as we use our latest technology... our wii's and our e's this and that. But from God's perspective we are primitives, much loved primitives, that have just discovered how to use fire.... we don't understand it... but gee it's clever/pretty/impressive. I don't think that we can reasonably expect a Bible for every era. One for the Iron Age, one for the Industrial Age, one for the Digital Age. This is why i am fairly content to read the Bible in terms of macro and micro perspective and I see the value in reading about miracles. Because just because we have wireless technology doesn't mean that this is the limit to science. God knew we would develop digital technology... He is a lot more sophisticated than us. Think about the ease we download information from one format to another... we think it's pretty impressive that we can send a MP3 file across the planet faster than the speed of light... who's to say that God isn't an entity that can download our souls into Heaven as we are dying? Our brainwaves and heart beats are electricity after all...

whoa... sorry about that *ducking and hiding with you!*

[Inanna]

What I believe is that magic is very real! I believe that we have closed ourselves off to the natural rythum (I can't spell rythum) of life. We have moved away from honouring the Earth and the seasons... As such we have closed orselves off to magic...

I believe that it's possible that the stories from the Bible are real stories - I also believe that it was at a time when honouring the Earth and her Seasons was prevalent - so therefore we were not closed off to the miracles that that brings...

I think we allow our heads to stuff up our spirituality. For much that is spiritual is a fealing and a knowing or an intuition.. When we intellectualise too much it can complicate things...

Having said that it is important also to be discerning and use our intellegence to question what we see... I know that is contradictory...

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

CQ, Moses didn't part the red sea. God did. Scholars have shown that there was a really, really weird thing going on with the moon at about that time which meant tides were doing something really freaky. Freaky enough for thousands of people to cross a sea then it close to stop them being pursued? Well, probably. If you look into it, science can explain some of the miracles. Depends if you believe the science, given we have no proof for these thoughts, just some maths. (Just because we have an explaination doesn't mean it's not miraculous. I know how conception works, but DS is still miraculous to me!)

Same as the laws. Some make no sense because we're not living in a hot desert with no bleach, no fridge and nosy neighbours.

I believe the Bible happened. And I believe miracles happen every day: we're just too used to them being explained. Damn science! ( says the scientist!)