At breaking point

[onthefly]

This is why I just spent a few nights out at my parent's place. I don't know how often DD wakes during the night, but we probably get a few nights with 3+ hours every few months or so. Time to call in reinforcements!

Do you wear your DS at all? A comfy back carry could help a lot.

[Artechim]

My DD1 was like that, as well as having DS waking 4-5 times each night as well. It was beyond terrible. I got through the day by having DD in a sling. The other way I got her to have naps was to feed her to sleep on my bed and then back away slowly. She didn't sleep for long but at least that was 20 minutes that I wasn't holding her.
I didn't find anything that would cure the cat naps except time. I was just looking at her baby book the other day and at 4 months she was awake for 13 hours a day! She had a 40 minute nap and then a few 20 minute naps though out the day. By about 8 months she was only having one 40 minute nap, but as she got closer to one the nap lengthened out to over an hour and then longer.

I understand the feeling of just wanting a little bit of time to yourself. Will he go to sleep for your DH? Can your DH take him for a walk in the pram/carrier or go for a drive for even half an hour so you can spend some quality time with your DD, or get some of those niggling little jobs done? Any parents close by that might be able to help out? Even if they prepared a meal so you could use that time for your DD instead.

Hope he improves soon xx

[Santosha]

SHOCKER of a night last night. Dead on my feet and no brain power for decent reply, but justnwanted to say thank you so much for kind words, empathy and suggestions.

Thought infinally had DS asleep tonight. Went to have a shower... and got out to find DH asleep on the couch, beer spilled everywhere, and DS wide awake. Grrrrrrrr.

Night night. Will attempt to respond coherently tomorrow. Xoxoxo thanks again.

[YoYo]

Just wanted to send huge hugs. Totally been there. Went from being fun mum with ds and then when dd came along and never wanted to sleep, I was not only tired, but felt so guilty! I was grumpy, tired, yelled and chucked megga tanties all the time.

It was made worse when we moved countries, but then, dd got older and it did get better.

I think the suggestion above about the double pram was a good one. I did the same, which enabled me to spend time with ds, as well as going to a play group.

Now that dd is 20 months and ds is 4 (and at Kindy 4 days a week till 2pm) they play with eachother more, giving me a little break.

It did taint ds though, as he always tells me now he doesn't like babies!!

I still co-sleep with dd, and ds is finally, only recently sleeping in his own bed (we've had A LOT of upheaval with moving etc) which also helps.

I stuck some notes up around the house to remind me to be patient, not to yell etc which helped me too. Hard to do when you're so physically tired, but found if I could mentally change my attitude and the way I was reacting to the little things, the sleep deprivation was much more tolerable. I think it helped my babes too.


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[Santosha]

ZOMG!!! After 3 wake-ups between 10 and 1, I refused to feed back to sleep... I was wide awake anyway and thought I'd just see what happened. He eventually settled being 'spooned' by me (only way he wouldn't claw at the boobies) and then just as he drifted off to sleep he rolled over onto his tummy. Too scared to wake him again, I left him like that... and he slept 'till 6!! What's more, he then fed (as if starving to death!) and went back to sleep on his tummy and is still there at 8:30am. Unheard of. After a rough start, and waking to DD at 3 and 5, I don't exactly feel refreshed, but extremely excited that he can do such a long stretch, albeit, in not the ideal position.

So do I persist with the tummy sleeping??? It does make me quite anxious with the additional SIDS risk, especially since he already has another risk factor - his Daddy is a smoker. If I can get him to do it in the cot, we do have a breathing monitor, I just stopped using it as we had so many false alarms, which we'll have even more of now that he's wriggling around so much and can roll off the pad.

WRT to other suggestions...

I do have a little support from others. Mum is around once a week, but I tend to use her distraction of DD as a chance to get on top of mount washmore! MIL is home on weekends and I have attempted to nap at their house while she watches the two of them, but find I just lay there and listen out for DS in case he cries. I have a few other offers to take DD for a few hours, but with DS napping for such short periods, I find I don't actually get the down-time I was hoping for and have not really felt much better for the break. I have called it in if I don't think I can be nice Mummy though. At least DD gets to steer clear of the grump!

The carrier is a MUST, though it wears thin very fast because DS is MASSIVE and my back is stuffed. That said, I haven't tried the back carry MadB. He's finally big enough for the ergo - as in willing to have his legs in that position - and seems to really like it. I didn't think he was old enough for the back carry though. Can I put him 'round that was at 5 months? I remember I found it really tricky with DD to get her in that position by myself, and frustrating if she decided soon after getting her there that she needed something / to get out, but sure I'll get better at it with practice if it's something that can work for us.

DH is a bit of a lost cause at the moment. In some ways, he's BRILLIANT. He does about 70% of the cooking, and is mostly really really hands on with the kids. But as for sleeping... well he's a horror in his own right. He has awful sleep apnoea which has stopped responding to the mouthguard thingamy that he's supposed to wear, but he refuses to get CPAP. He snores really loud and so has been exiled to the couch for 5 months. He starts work at 5 and does a physical job so is tired anyway, and on top of that never has a real night's sleep. As a consequence, he always feels exhausted and falls asleep on the couch in seconds, so can not be trusted with baby-wrangling. I'm finding this is really increasing the pressure on me as I can't have any real time out, especially at night. I'll be taking DS to our mother's group dinner next week, as last time I went alone, I came home to find DH sleeping like the dead and DS awake (thankfully, quite happy). He also drinks too much, smokes and is about 10kg over weight, none of which help the situation but, in spite of my nagging / calm discussion / threats / pleas, he has not addressed these issues.

Ummm... what else was there. Oh yes, the 'all napping together'. Sounds lovely. Doesn't work. DD gets SO excited that she thrashes around for an hour pulling my doona up over her head and giving me sparodic, enthused cuddles and then only has a shorter sleep. And DS invariably wakes after 30 mins and then ends up waking DD as I try to resettle him. I really did think that one would be a winner for us, but I just ended up crankier as no-one was properly rested. At least if DD naps in her own bed she usually has 40 mins to 1.5 hours and is the chirpy one of the household afterward!

I think that was all... not sure if I can safely go back to the prev page to read the other replies without losing this... but again, thanks so much for all your support.

[jackrose]

You need more support. Not negotiable.

I was in exactly your situation this time last year with a 3 year old and an 8 month old and had been having grabs of sleep 2 hour stretches at a time with both of them tag teaming the waking up during the night. I was hating the mother I was becoming but felt utterly powerless to do anything, shattered is a great way to describe it. My DH was terrible, offered no support and left me too it. Unfortunately it got much worse before it got better and I am still mortified about how bad I was with my children.

Sometimes when you are so tired it is not only hard to be the mother you want to be but you are unable to organise anything that will help you solve the sleeplessness so you end in a viscous cycle. It is really difficult to do this on your own and you really need help from your DH and other support services. It does take a village to raise a child and it is during these early years that we really need that village. You deserve help as a mother of little ones so you can be free to be the mum you want to be.

Start with sleep.

Is there any way you can get some time to yourself, even just a couple of hours sleep in in the morning? Sleep will really help you, its the starting point for everything to move uphill!

This is so true!
Others have suggested great things like alternating with your DH some sleep in days. Remind you DH that this will only be the situation for a limited time, then you can go back to 'normal' You both just have to get through this challenging time with your sanity intact and supporting one another. Otherwise, (and also?) Is there anyone else you can call on to mind the kids for a few hours regularly so you can nap? It is so important to get some sleep somewhere.

ETA: just read your reply which I missed as I typed this post while attending to DD2! Great to see you have help from others. For the short term, I's say, let the cleaning and housework go and just sleep. You should have seen my house at my worst time! It just has to wait as you need the catch up. As for listening out for DS, it is hard, I know. Just keep in mind how much more of an awesome mother you will be once you have grabbed some sleep!

I ended up at Tweedle for a day stay to work on DDs sleep and ended up using the time to sleep myself! It did help DDs sleep a bit but the best thing it did was open up some pathways to get help for my emotional state and parenting. It was pointed out to me that after the initial post natal period, the biggest risk factor for developing PND is around the 8 month mark when a parent has been struggling with sleep. Once I heard this, I looked up the symptoms and realised I was defiantly on the scale. From there I chased down support from my MCH, my GP for some psychology sessions and my Chinese Doctor for some general help. It was lifesaving to say the least and it took me a few months to claw back some sense of my old self.

My heart goes out to you as I remember all to well how bad that time was and how soul destroying it was to be so tired and and how heartbreaking it was to be such a crap parent. Good thing is, I did get through it, my DD1 doesn't seem to be completely scarred by the experience and It does keep getting better now. What I learnt (should I ever go through this again) is to get help in place early and prioritise myself a bit more so that I can be there for everyone else.

[wysiwyg]

Someone else mentioned playgroup, and I have to say I love ours (sad is not on in Jan - only term time) - is a structured one - so has a paid leader (find through playgroup Victoria website) and have found it brilliant with two of them. DD loves it, there are craft tables set up (so you don't have to think of the craft activity or clean up) and then lots of play equipment from 9:30 till 11:00, then they all sit and have morning tea (mums natter) and then have stories on the mat followed by outside play till 12:00. Generally we get there at 9:30 and I feed DS while sat at craft table with DD doing craft (always other mums around to help pass things etc to DD) - then I put DS in his pushchair and he watches kids play or sleeps (sometimes I rock the pushchair all depends if I think he will sleep or not) - while DD plays. Because is all different ages (as opposed to mothers group) is great, DD has made a little friend a year older and they play happily with minimal interaction from me (so I can zone out or attend to DS or chat). I get DS out of pushchair for story and songs as he loves that and DD loves singing with him, and then he is back in it for outside time (until he can sit up more on his own and then can go in sandpit). Alot of the mums have older kids at kinder or have two there or are expecting - which gives it quite a different vibe from Mothers Group. I started going because I wanted something I could go to with both of them with minimal effort and has lived up to my expectations. Normally you can go to one as a free trial (it isn't expensive really, you pay a Playgroup Vic annual subscription and then per term (under 1 don't pay) works out about $9 a session maybe) - so might be worth looking into - your DD would love it if there are slightly older girls around.

Oh audiobooks I find help DS sleep in day - when DD goes for her nap (if she is cooperating) I lie down and feed DS on our bed and listen to an audiobook or The Archers (radio soap) on the IPhone, I often drift off and DS nearly always does (regardless of when had last sleep) - sometimes his sleep is still quite short but it does refresh me a bit. I think it helps me relax as I don't think about all the other things can be doing and see it as sort of 'me' time as well, and because I am relaxed so is he (and do pick things with soothing voices too).

Also I don't know if you have read the P.E.T (Parent Effectiveness Training) book, but I am dipping in and out of that at the moment and there is alot of stuff in there (not about getting more sleep) about how is fine to have different levels of acceptance of behaviors e.g. certain behavior you may be less accepting of when you are tired, and about how communicate about being tired to your child in a way so they understand and don't feel your crankiness is a reflection on them (Basically using 'I' statements to explain). Anyway it made me feel alot better about not being the 'perfect, fun parent'.

[onthefly]

Re carriers, you could give the ergo a go on your back if he's holding his head up and more or less sitting now. otherwise no, not enough support yet. To be honest, I didn't find the ergo all that good as a back carrier (very comfy for me on the front). Different things suit different people of course. If you can get your hands on a mei tai, or some other carrier with a longer body (and thus better neck/head support) you could easily carry him on your back at this age. I LOVE back carries. So much more convenient. Ideally you want something that carries high, so he can see over your shoulder - mei tais are good for that. (and look on youtube for instructions if you're not sure about getting him up there)

I think you should have a serious talk with your DH about CPAP. If he had it he'd actually get decent sleep and not be tired all the time.... it's made a huge difference for my DH and he only has quite mild apnoea. Perhaps there's someone else that could talk to him about it who he might respond to better?

[Rowellen]

So do I persist with the tummy sleeping???

If you were me, I would say yes! Especially if you are co-sleeping & DH is not in the bed. My DS would only ever sleep on his tummy. He was able to hold his head up from birth & could turn his head from a few days so I was comfortable with his strength. He still wasn't a great sleeper but that was the only way I could get more than a half hour out of him. DD won't have a bar of being on her tummy though so I don't know what to do about her. How comfortable are you with him sleeping on his tummy? At 5 months, it probably won't be long until he can roll anyway (if he's not already) & he will sleep in whatever position he likes regardless of how you put him down.

[onthefly]

yes, I'd be fine with tummy sleeping next to me at that age.

[*TripleJ*]

jazzy is everywhere sleeper back front side slapping my face lol

the last 2 nights shes slept way better so there is hope xoxoxoxoxox

[MummyNaomi]

No more advice, but just checking in to see how you are going? xx

[Santosha]

Got him to sleep at 9:15 on his tummy... he's still there so I live in hope of a better night!!! Rowellen, I am quite apprehensive about the tummy sleeping. But he is very strong and can roll so hopefully he can get himself 'out of trouble' if he needs to, and at this point I've gotta try something. So funny though... he actually self settled on his tummy tonight, something I didn't think he'd be able to do since he used to just keep his head up and cry as he got more tired. But tonight he just repeatedly face-planted and rubbed his face against the mattress until he finally fell asleep with his face pressed into the sheets! (I then turned his head to the side). Weirdo!

Vic - that playgroup sounds AWESOME! I did love our old one but they took too many enrolments and it got too noisy and chaotic. Where is it and which day do you go? (obviously PM if you don't want to advertise your schedule!!). I don't have the PET book - I wonder if the library might have it?

MadB - oh there have been numerous 'serious talks' about CPAP. A couple of them admittedly got a little shouty on my part as I am OVER IT and furious that he is not taking responsibility for something that affects us all so significantly. My serious talks were amounting to no action though. He keeps saying he'd rather do the other things the sleep docs reccomended (lose weight, stop smoking and drinking) before he tries 'a torture machine'... but doesn't actually do those things. I've told him he has 'till April - figure that's a pretty fair window to start enacting some serious behaviour change and weight loss, or I am going to go and buy the CPAP machine myself. I have to go back to work in May. I work evenings, and I have no idea what I'm going to do if I can't trust him to stay awake and look after the little people.

Nay - thanks love, you're awesome!

[onthefly]

My 2 are both face-planters. that's the way they like to sleep

It's not a torture device! has he ever used one? DH went to a public sleep clinic and was able to trial one at very little cost before buying....

[Santosha]

(Re:CPAP) Grrrr I know. I have heard many positive or "it's not fun but it's better than complete exhaustion" reports... but DH has apparently heard from an unknown but, it would seem, more believable source that it's awful and is unwilling to try it except as a 'last resort'. You'd think sleeping on the couch and being too tired to safely look after your own children would warrant such a 'last resort'. At least trying it - I've heard you can hire one for a trial. But noooo.

[Malyna]

I had to book myself into a local hotel and take myself away from it all for a Saturday night, so I could rest up. Best thing I ever did. Just basically read books, gave myself a manicure, ate not so healthy stuff and went to sleep at 4pm, because I was so worn out at the time.

Get DH and the mums to team up to look after your children while you go and have some down time.

Just tell DH that you need help. Proclaim Sunday's as your sleep in day and lock the bedroom door. DH is a big boy, he can look after the kids. Even if you just lie in bed and read a book/magazine at least you are resting. When you are in there, relaxing just remember that a responsible adult is looking after your kids and they are more than capable of doing it and ignore the noise.

Organise the troops and tell them that you are going to have some down time. Just get out of the house, book into a cheap motel (or a child free friend's house) and do something for yourself.

You aren't being a bad mother, you are being a responsible one by taking care of yourself first.

[onthefly]

Hotel's a nice idea, but bit difficult with a young baby

Well, I'm out of ideas unless he wants to converse with my husband about how great CPAPs are Feel a bit frustrated for you

[possum magic]

We had 2 horror weeks with DD- 5mths- over xmas where we'd spend hrs holding her, walking her to sleep etc. Soonas we stopped she'd wake up. I was getting very tired & down. Decided i'd had enough. Pinched some strategies frm friends who have done 'sleep school'. Mainly it was putting Dd in sleeping bag in cot with dummy-which we hadn't used before- and going in & out the room to pat her and reassure briefly before leaving again. I found she was more willing to settle for me when she'd been alone for two minutes than if i'd been there the whole time. Eventually she'd see me & roll over expecting a pat! She rolls herself onto her tummy now too
even if I put her on her back. If I turn her she just turns over again so I gave up. Pls think about asking for help with a gentle teach to sleep program. Eg Tweddle, Queen Elizabeth Centre. I feel so much more sane than 2 wks ago so I wanted to share my experience.

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