Immunisation debate

[Trillian]

originally posted by lisa-jay
We have friends that have just had the MMR..did you know, for example, that those kids wil now secrete the viruses from their noses?? This is how *wild measles* is passed on.

That is a pretty wild theory there.

[MantaRay]

I was worried about the wearing off too. I asked my GP about this (he is a GP I trust). He said that they are constanty researching this and that for those that are wearing off after a set number of years (eg 10), they are setting up for re-immunisation as teenagers. I also asked whether he needed ones like chicken pox and the GP recommended yes, as he said there are some serious complications that can occur with chickenpox (can't remember which ones, but he listed a few). I ended up deciding to do them all. My personal choice and I don't criticise others.

[Inanna]

Oh wow, this one always brings up lots of emotions, and rightly so!

I have been a fence sitter on the immunisation debate for many many years. I have seen first hand children have dreadful reactions to childhood immunisations. I have also seen first hand children die of 'preventable diseases'. So, please know that I don't sit on the fence because of indifference. I would challenge anyone to say there is a simple answer here. I have poured over this subject and seen many 'studies' some very much in support of immunisation and others very much the other way. None of them changed my fence sitting position! I firmly have imbedded in my mind the picture of a child dying from pertussis (whooping cough) and I also have seen the trauma of a child deteriorate rapidly from a rare complication of a vaccine. I have seen the plight of children in third world countries who don't have vaccinations and come back fully believing in the need for them. I have sat with a mother who's child's "lights went out" after a vaccination and felt the torture - maybe it was coincidence maybe it was very rare but that was all irrelevant to this woman...

We live in a very different society to what we lived in 100 years ago. We have soap, warm water, safe drinking water, access to medical support, nutritious food and importantly access to information and education. Some cultures dont' support submitting their children to vaccination at birth or even in the first year. Is it Japan who dont offer routine immunisations until 18 months? I think it is but correct me someone if I am wrong.

Someone here mentioned feeling angered by a friends comment that she felt her child was too precious to be immunised. I hear how that may cause you to feel anger. However, we do need to remember that to immunise is a choice. Overwhelmingly people choose not to from fear and they choose to from fear. Niether side is operating any differently.

I took my daughter to be immunised at 12 months. I decided that hopefully after being breastfed solely for 8 months and then with the continuation of breastfeeding that her immune system would be strong. I used other alternative therapies to support her body and took her to be immunised. She screamed non stop for 6 hours. She had a febrile convulsion and vomited a number of times within this time frame. I was frantic. I arrived at a paediatrician who a friend got me into. His advice was she was one of the rarities - she had had a reaction. She was hospitalised. There has been no long term affects that we know of. She did not have the pertussis component which is thought the main 'culprit' for reactions. It was advised that no further immunisations happen until she reached 2 and was 'probably more able to withstand the affects".

Now, this story is mine and for every one like mine there are a hundred who don't look back and maybe 1 or 2 that are worse. I am a medical person I know the stats. However, my child was too precious to me to put through that before one year of age. Too precious after seeing the worst and best of both sides. That doesn't make any one elses child less precious it just means as her mama I just couldn't do it.

I havae never used child care so the immunisation issue never was an issue with childcare. Never once has Ruby been asked to stay home from school when an outbreak of measles, mumps etc has occured. Interestingly she and three of her unimunised friends did not contract measles, or chicken pox when it went through her class at preschool/school. Many of her immunised buddies did contract a milder dose. Ruby was fully immunised by 6.
My son is 6 in a few weeks and has had a few immunisations and will complete them by the end of this year. My two little girls are 2 and 3 and will begin to be immunised at 5 like their sister and brother.

I think it is important to remember that we all do our very very best for our kiddies. I would walk over burning coals for mine as all of you would for yours. We make our choices based on our life experience, our gut instincts and our education.

[MantaRay]

Flowerchild, thank you for your post. I think that is a very educated and balanced opinion and I totally agree that we all make what we believe to be the right decision. I think it is impossible to know for sure what "the right" thing is, so the best we can do is educate ourselves and make the decision that feels right for us. If only it were simpler!!

[Inanna]

Simple would be good! However, it is like most things to do with our babies we lament and toss and turn and eventually we have to make a decision and go with that. Unless of course something comes up down the track to completely change our tack!

We need to be kind to ourselves and each other on this parenting journey. It's a hard gig sometimes!

Thanks for your kind comment.

[min]

wow, this filled up with opinions fast.

One thing I want to say though, that no matter how clean our country is, and how healthy the food is or good their home is, a disease can especially still be bought into the country easily enough and spread, and no amount of healthy food or water is going to stop you from contracting it. Plus it is a scare for pregnant women, I was around a child who was not immunised that had contracted measles when I was in early stages of pregnancy, if I had've caught this (i had a test, and was immune) it could have cause seriously complications with my uncorn child including deformities.

I think Lindsay asked about the severity if immunised, and yes it is true that if the child is immunised, if they contract one of the diseases the severity of it should be less.

On the childcare issue, a government centre or school can tell you it is their preference not to accept un-immunised children, but they can't legally refuse them admission, but the parents do have to show one of those objection cards, they can't just say no they are not being immunised.

This may be a controversial opinion, but I am entitled to it and feel strongly about it, and I hope that no-one feels the need to attack me for it, so far this debate has been very well behaved!! but I would prefer that there be much stricter rules concerning permanent resident's and immunisation, and some kind of compulsary schedule.

[min]

SNAP Shannon, just missed your post. I completely agree with you about resenting that comment. And Jessalyn is the perfect example of why I think immunisations should be compulsary, I don't think it is fair to put weaker (I mean that in the nicest possible way sweetheart, please don't take offence to it) children at risk of life threatening illnesses!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

You get chicken pox immunisations? I don't think we have them here - only for things that can kill/severely disable. Like the MMR or polio, which can happen to children with fantastic homes, food, immune systems... I couldn't live with myself if I didn't immunise and my baby died of something I could have prevented.

But for non-dangerous illnesses, such as chicken pox, I would just hope that my children can catch it in early-ish childhood. OK, I do have a couple of chicken pox scars still (I had it when I was 7), but rather that than an immunisation that runs out.

I can understand that people don't like needles but I just think of what can happen when you don'timmunise; people in good, clean areas catch horrid diseases because the immigrant areas have them and they flare up in a new population with no tolerance to them, so living in the UK, which has in immigration problem, I would immunise.

[christy]

I agree with how scary both sides of it are, we all just want to do whats right for our babies....

I think that any mother agrees with this. We all just want to do whats right for our babies.

Thank you all for being relatively calm during this discussion It is a point to a lot of women who have had certain experiences either with the diseases or vaccinations themselves.

Now, one point that I feel I must address before anything more is mentioned. Please refrain from putting blame on other cultures or immigration for the spread of disease as this can be seen as very inflammatory towards certain cultures or identities.

I know growing up in California, a lot of spreading of childhood illness' were blamed on "dirty Mexicans" which in turn made children think differently about that culture. In truth, the majority of Mexicans, even those living in dumps are not dirty. They do the best with what they have. If those mothers had any other options for their children, they would be doing them. And those living in America weren't dirty at all. So the ideas were spread via fear & intolerance to other cultures. Not fair.

[Freya]

I will definately be immunising my baby completely for the reasons stated by everyone else above. I have thought about the small chance he could have an adverse effect from some of them but I think the higher risk of catching a disease that could kill him is more concerning.
My Mum vaccinated my sister and I completely, including making us have the menningococal vax as teenagers. As for my brother he has had everything bar Whooping Cough vax as when he had the first installment he suffered an allergic reaction and couldnt have the rest. I remember my Mum freaking out everytime there was mention of a WC outbreak as she never wanted to see him catch it (she has horrible stories about watching a poor 1yo with it while in I was in hosp for a seperate reason, said she never ever wanted to see us in that position).
As for someone else's ? re risk of infection even with vaccinations, no vaccination completely guarantee's you WONT catch the disease, but even with menningococal if you are vaxed your more likely to only get a mild form and you most likely wont die from it.

[Liz]

The menningococal vaccine isn't for the scary menningococal tho is it? as in the 24hr deadly one with the purple rash? I think it's a different strain.

[Astrid]

Maggie is being immunised, one of the main factors now is that DH works with sewers and he is very cautious about Maggie catching anything. He had to get a lot a of immunisations when he started that job.

I was quite surprised though by her reaction to the 12 month needles, I expected tears as with the previous times. This time though she watched the needles go and didn't even flinch!

[blackbird]

I haven't completely made up my mind yet what to do with DS when he arrives. I've done a lot of reading on the subject over the years as I've had some nasty reactions to vaccinations, including a particularly bad one to polio about 10 years ago. My naturopath gave me some drops and herbs to help my body deal with vaccs I needed for a work trip to Sth America (yellow fever etc) and they seemed to help (but obviously I can't compare what the reaction would have been without them). Maybe that's what I'll end up doing with DS.

[Tigergirl1980]

We have immunised too and always will. Far more horrid in most cases for them to contract the disease than to have the immunisation. We've had no problems thus far with Jonah's injections and have no issue at all with him having them. There was a boy in my class in primary school who contracted measels and he was extremely sick with it and almost died. He was left brain damaged, in a wheel chair, unable to talk, couldn't go to the bathroom by himself (he may have had to wear a nappy), he had no control over his mouth which caused him to constantly dribble and to eat he had to push the food down his own throat. He gradually got a little better, only in the fact that he could learn stuff and was able to come back to school but he was so far away from what he used to be, and because of that I am so not willing to risk not having any of my children immunised.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Now, one point that I feel I must address before anything more is mentioned. Please refrain from putting blame on other cultures or immigration for the spread of disease as this can be seen as very inflammatory towards certain cultures or identities.

I know growing up in California, a lot of spreading of childhood illness' were blamed on "dirty Mexicans" which in turn made children think differently about that culture. In truth, the majority of Mexicans, even those living in dumps are not dirty. They do the best with what they have. If those mothers had any other options for their children, they would be doing them. And those living in America weren't dirty at all. So the ideas were spread via fear & intolerance to other cultures. Not fair.

Ahh, that's not what I was meaning at all! Thanks for pulling me up on it, Christy.

OK, in the UK we have a very different situation to Australia. We have people trafficking et cetera, where people are kept 40 people in a 2-bed house: this is not on and NOT how these people choose to live, however, clean as these people are, it does spread diseases. It's not keeping clean, it's that many people carry viruses to which we are immune - either via vaccination or just normally immune - and a new person will introduce a new virus. It's not about cleanliness, it is about new illnesses, or old illnesses, coming in.

Look at things like the Black Death: when a village contracted it, they were quarantined. The neighbouring villages didn't get the Plague. The same is true globally - while (for example) Wales may be free of measles, if someone from Holland moves to Wales then they may introduce measles.

Actually, you could make this point with foreign holidays too - we go abroad, contract an illness (or pick it up in our clothes/luggage), it sits around for a month and we spread it to our friends... it's not about "dirty" foreigners or racism, it's about movement of people, and movement of people helps to spread disease. But non-movement of people leads to inbreeding (see places like Finland - using a specific example as I know there are lots of interesting genetic diseases here), so I'd rather have movement and vaccinations!

[christy]

Fair enough Ryn, just wanted to make sure that was the way the discussion was heading

[Lucy]

But for non-dangerous illnesses, such as chicken pox

Ryn (and everyone else)........really don't want to be a scare monger at all, but chicken pox in small/young babies (ie under 12 months) sadly, can kill. Hence it is now on the immuisation schedule in Australia. Sadly I know this from a friends terrible experience.

[min]

I was going to point that out too Lucy.

regarding the reactions to the needles, all babies are different, Jackson cries for a couple of minutes, then he sees something that he likes (an indoor plant last time we went, he thought it was hillarious!) and he is over it then he sleeps for the rest of the afternoon.