Another sleep thread about DD, yay. But I've just realised that I'm about to have a newborn on top of this and I'm freaking out about what I'm going to do.
DD has been a terrible sleeper since 6 months old...pretty much when she started teething. She's been teething pretty much constantly since then, they take ages to come through, going up and down, and when they finally do, more start. The only teeth she has yet to cut are the 36 month molars or whatever they are, the very back ones. Her eye teeth are cut but still coming down. Amber necklace has done nothing to help her unfortunately, and I suspect she's actually sensitive to painkillers, because we actually found she was worse on Panadol and Nurofen. Anyways.
We have a good night routine, good sleep cues for naps. I've been adaptive, gone with her cues, gone with the flow, gone by a million different routines of my own making...nothing really works. She takes ages to put to sleep and I'm really not okay with it anymore. I'm so scared of having a newborn who needs my attention and having to spend an hour plus trying to get DD to sleep. I'd really love to be able to pop her in her bed, close the door (or heck, even just sit in the room with her) and she could eventually go off to sleep. I'd even be happy with patting her etc. But she just plays, or tantrums...hard. Screaming, crying until she gags, kicking and hitting. I've tried popping her in her bed and leaving...she howls, it's traumatising for her, she runs to the door and screams and bangs on it. There are two ways to get her to sleep; Daddy bounces her in his arms in her room, usually for 30-90 minutes. Often, she will wake up when put down and cry and scream, so it's another 30 minutes getting her back to sleep. Half the time, DH can't do it anymore and will give her to me. She's too heavy for me to be holding while pregnant (SPD), so I will lay with her in our bed, pat her back, stroke her hair etc. This is for day naps too. We have special music we've used for about 6 months now we play while we put her to sleep. We've tried no music and it's worse. For me, she will either try to get up and play, or scream and tantrum. Everything is a tantrum these days, but especially her sleep. We've tried later bedtimes, earlier bedtimes,two naps, one nap, no naps. All terrible. There's no pattern or predictability.
What can we do? What methods can we try? It was easier when she was BF. at this stage and the age she is, I'm not 100% adverse to letting her whinge a little...seeing as she's crying constantly throughout the day, and when we try to get her to sleep anyway, I see little difference. But she gets very genuinely distressed and I'm not willing to let her get to that stage, which she does almost instantly, so those types of methods are out.
So yeah, any ideas? Help?
ETA it feels like one of those things that we just have to keep pushing through. Thing is, we've been pushing through for the last 11 months. I'm tired of pushing through. I literally am at a loss for what I will do with two kids when one needs all this time dedicated to getting to sleep. And okay, when Amey's a newborn it may not be too bad, but what about when she's older and more mobile?
I'm starting to doubt whether I should even cosleep with Amey, I know that's silly but all that talk of 'making a rod in your own back' that MIL and mum harped on about feels true right now I just want my children to be as contented and safe as I can make them feel.
Last edited by PumpkinZulu; November 5th, 2012 at 02:06 PM.
Is she in a bed or cot? DD was in her cot till 2.5 because I knew we would be having another baby before then and it was easier to put her to bed in her cot when we had a new born too. I started putting her in and sitting in the room - she knew I was there but I was not touching her. If she was happy I would kiss her tuck her in and leave. If she was upset - wingy not hysterical I would lay her back down and sit on the floor. If she got up and I would repeat and sit on the floor untill she drifted off. It didnt take long and we could lay her down - sit on he floor and 10 mins latter she was sound asleep. The cot heloed keep her "contained" as such not that we left her if she was really upset - just she could keep getting up and down all the time!
She sleeps in her own room now at night, has done for a few months. If I'm putting her to sleep, she'll fall asleep in our bed, then DH will transfer her. I can't put her to sleep or transfer we to her bed at night or for day sleeps, because her bed is so close to the floor and I can't get down there. Left alone, she'll nap during the day for 30 mins to an hour. If I'm lying with her she'll sometimes make 2 hours, but more than not it's 1 hour. She wakes up 3-6 times a night still.
If we have all the sides on the cot, she gets even more distressed. The cot we have is too low with all the sides up now (if we raised or she can climb out and it's a fair drop) so it's set up like a bed with one side off.
No real advice, but just wanted to say my DS also has a real cot aversion (seems to be the sides) so he is now on mattress on the floor (no good for you while pregnant) and is also a horror to get to sleep (he pokes his eyes to try and stay awake!) but I did exactly the same with him as did with DD, and he is so opposite in sleep patterns to her - so you can do the same and end up with complete opposite - so if you want to co-sleep (we have always done on and off) with number 2 do it - better you do what feels right and you may or may not end up with a difficult sleeper - than do something you are not so comfortable with and still end up with the same result.
I am sure also have read a few times about where number 1 child has started sleeping much better right when number 2 arrives - is like they have a sixth sense or something about how much you can cope with.
DS was a bit bigger when DD came along, but it was a similar struggle. I had DD in the cot for about 10 weeks. It was just easier. I didn't trust ex, so couldn't sleep deeply with her in the bed & I often had DS in my bed too. So didn't want him kicking her. Her & DS were always in their bed next to mine til the first feed. Then they slept in with me.
I used to sit with DS til he crashed out. But he was pretty easy. I still have to sit with him & he still comes into my bed almost every night, but he sleeps.
DD is harder. She sounds similar to your DD. We go to bed at 8pm every night. All of us. I turn every light in the house off at this time. That way its boring because they can't see anything. DD will still get up & wander around, but I just wait for her to come back.
I lay in her bed, quietly. She will carry on & jump around & play. I just keep laying her down & telling her to close her eyes. Eventually she does settle, but it can take an hour or so.
It will get better. If you start one routine, stick to it. Don't do it for a few weeks & try something new. Stick to that one for a few months at least. When you have the baby, you can feed her while sitting in the room with DD. You can hand her over to DP too. It won't be as bad as you think it'll be. And there's nothing wrong with having 2 babies in your bed. I've done it. I'm still doing it, I just don't have a partner on the other side.
You'll learn that whatever works, works. If they're in your bed for the next 5 years, then so be it. There's nothing wrong with that.
You mention that you think she reacts to the medication.... Have you considered trying dietary changes? It could be she has a sensitivity to preservatives or salycilates or something else like that, which can often result in difficult behaviour, sleep problems, etc, etc. (This is my *thing* at the moment seeing the difference in my kids after going failsafe)
We ended up putting the mattresses on the floor and sleeping as a family. Not ideal. But it worked. We still often all end up in one room (we have 2 double mattresses on the floor) to sleep. Even DD who is 5 1/2 will still come in sometimes.
I used to feed DS1 and pat DD but she never tantrumed or screamed she just couldn't settle herself to sleep and cried if I left her. When DS2 came along, I did the same with DS1. I laid in bed DS2 on the boob and DS1 and DD was on her own bed. As long as I was in the room she was happy, but I had to be with DS1 in the bed or he wouldn't settle. Now they're bigger I can just sit with DS2 on his bed, and sit in the room with the bigger kids until they fall asleep.
I was staring down the barrel of three kids waking at night when I was pregnant with #3 - DS was waking once or twice, DD was waking with massive screaming sessions and I was 8 months pregnant. I ended up crying to the health nurse at a public latch on event lol.
I am certainly no sleep expert 'cos I can't even get my own kids to sleep but I would get her into a single/king single bed. Put her to sleep in there during the day, teach her to climb down properly when she wakes (my 13 month old gets off my bed after day naps). Send your DH in to resettle her/co-sleep when she wakes during the night. It will be a rough ride for a few nights as she gets used to DH settling her, but then it is easy (or at least his problem, not yours lol).
Have you tried a later bedtime? Sometimes it is better for the sanity to put them to bed at 9.30 and have it take 10 minutes rather than aiming for 8pm and taking an hour.
I'm going to offer some different ideas although I think the other posters have some great suggestions. Does she watch any TV yet? Is she into any of those kids shows on ABC kids? Many of them have CD's or on itunes you can download story tracks only (no video) so you could get her to lie down and "listen to the story." What about one of those baby lights that shines lights and plays music at the same time? Perhaps your DD is now associating bedtime with negativity and making it a bit more fun but still calming/relaxing might break that cycle. Can you give her a little torch of her own to play with when it's bed time? Does she have a dolly? Can you try and get to her to lie quietly with her dolly stroking it's back while you sit in the room and sing to her quietly or tell her a story in the dim light?
We pat my DD when she goes to bed. It's less than ideal and sometimes we are in there for 20 minutes or so. She was one of those kids where I could put her in and shut the door and just changed in the last 6 months or so. I think kids go through phases. It's hard, especially when you are pregnant. I really feel for you and I hope that one of these ideas works for you guys.
I second what Artechim said about a later bedtime. I was on my own for a month while DP was away and just got sick of it taking more than an hour to get DD2 to sleep so I just put her to bed at 9pm. My mum said she used to put me to bed at midnight because she got sick of battling me
Also think about getting rid of the daytime nap. I know she's very young still but maybe just try it for a few days and see if that brings her bedtime forward. My DD needs 12 hours solid awake time (I know she's older but at least working out her pattern has made it easier for me to predict what time her bedtime will be)
DD1 went through a rough patch when DD2 was about 2 months old so she was a little older than your dd. We ended up sitting on a chair in her room until she settled and over about two weeks we moved the chair to the door way then hall then the living area. She would ask if we were still watching her and we would say yes, it was about reassuring her that we were still there even if she couldn't see us. I would sit on the chair feeding dd2.
My girls were in single beds at just over 18months and have never hurt themselves falling/getting out of bed. DD2 has rolled out but was confused more than anything. Do you think a low single bed might work? I hope things improve before Miss A arrives xx
Mkay, big response coming up. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm constantly saying 'yep, tried that, didn't work'. It's not that I'm not very grateful for your suggestions (I am!) but it really is a bit like that here, I feel like we've tried so much already! I absolutely howled my eyes out putting her down for her second nap today, she was tired and just fought and fought until she was overtired. I've nutted out a few things I want to try though.
Wysiwyg - that's really reassuring, thank you. My instincts tell me to cosleep, it makes waking up for feeds and feeding so much easier, and I just love it. I've also heard that sometimes older siblings sleep picks up a bit when the next one came along, hope that's the case here!
Clover - thank you. DH does all of the night settling...I'd go mad if he didn't. He also has started working really easy short shifts in the early evening, so he's beginning to be home during the day too. He will bounce her to sleep, generally pretty effectively. We've tried letting her wander, because all the lights etc do go off when we try and put her to bed. She will just tantrum that she can't get into the bathroom or will play for hours before whinging and whining. We usually stick to a new routine for at least a month, it's generally pretty obvious what is going to work and what won't by 2-3 weeks.
MadB, I've read you mention this before and I'm really interested to know more, where do I start? DD seemed to be more irritable and restless, maybe had a tummy ache too, when we were giving her painkillers. I'm not sure if it was related or not, but it's worth trying with the diet changes. It's not something we've tried before so definitely worth looking into, seeing as all this madness with her sleep started at 6 months...which is when she started teething, but I also realised last night, was when we started introducing solids.
3LM - I wish that would work with DD, but I don't think it would. I lie with her, stroke her hair and back, pat her bum etc and she gets up, throws herself around, cries, tries to play, tantrums when I don't let her etc. She'd probably squash a feeding DD2 lol
Arte - I think this might be key. She is used to sleeping in our bed, I think getting her her own bed (we'd get her a double) would help a lot. Because at the moment, due to me not being able to get on the floor, I'm putting her to sleep in our bed and DH puts her to sleep in her room. If she had her own bed, either DH or I could put her to sleep there, it would be more constant for her. DH already does all the night settling and usually ends up staying in there and sleeping with her after the second or third wake up, we have another cot mattress on the floor. We've tried all sorts of bedtimes, from 7.30 until 10.30. Her average time she tends to fall asleep has been about 9.30 since birth, but lately she'll cry etc and push that to 10.30 or 11. It generally takes 45 minutes to put her to bed at night, and an hour during the day.
Starangelk - I love that idea. I think you're right, I think she may have had a lot of pain or something, maybe was sick for a while, and had a hard time sleeping, and has now associated bedtime with that. I love the idea of the audiobooks and the projector. I'm going to get onto that ASAP and make it part of this new routine we're trying to nut out. Again, I think getting her a proper double bed will make her feel more at home too. We have special music we listen to, but it's possible she has some negative associations with that too.
Fionas - I'll give her a go with no daytime nap. Generally though, in fact always, she is wrecked after being up for about 3 hours. If she even only has one nap a day, she really struggles and it's just constant whinging and crying.
Novella - Good to know about the beds. I'm definitely not worried about DD rolling out, she's good at getting out of our bed which is taller than her lol. So a nice low frame double should be fine I reckon. Plus we have a spare cot mattress that we got just for putting next to her bed in case she falls out.
Veus - Thanks. I haven't heard of them but I'll look it up. We tried the Brauers homeopathic stuff and didn't find it made a difference unfortunately.
Jakabella - I feel like she's overtired about 30 minutes after a nap honestly! I'm not sure why. We've tried no naps, 3 naps as everything inbetween and there hasn't been a huge difference. She's always changing what works lol. This morning she napped an hour and a half after she woke up and had a really good sleep, then refused to sleep until she had a brief nap at 3...she was exhausted since about 12 but wouldn't sleep.
Olive - I was reading about it last night actually. Definitely having another look into it now.
HotI - that's reassuring. It's good to remember that hey, sometimes we just get by, because we have to. It's good to know there are people put there who have done it before that I can cry to for help lol!
Hope - I spend every day watching for tired signs lol. Even if I go an hour before she shows any signs, we get the same. Like I said before, she seems constantly overtired, she definitely often looks overtired. It's weird.
OK, we're doing failsafe, more or less. I won't lie to you - it's full on and hard work. Google failsafe and fed up, you'll get the idea.
Looking back, I really think both my kids got worse with food and now we know they're both sensitive to salycilates. Symptoms = frequent waking, irritability, tantrums, etc. Salycilates are in all fruit and most veg and a bunch of other things besides. We can have pears and bananas (as we're ok with amines), and a small range of vegies. This gives you some idea of the restrictions on the diet!
If you really want to explore this, I'd suggest talking to a dietician to plan out what you're going to do. you really need to do it properly - otherwise it just won't work and you'll be wasting your energy. So, best to attempt when you feel ready to take on a project. Possibly this is not this time... depends how motivated you are and how much help you have with meal planning and preparation. It's something that will take months, not a few days or weeks.
It will work out ok - you'll figure out something to get you through with two children, just as you have with one. It just takes time and a bit of trial and error.
ETA - I think my DD has eaten a fair percentage of the fur off her teddy. gross.
The other thing I've noticed, I don't know whether it's a problem, but it bothers me.
DD has developed over maybe the last 4 or so months a weird comfort habit. She bites the fur off her teddy. She can get quite OTT with it, have quite a lot of fur in her mouth (bit smaller than a 5c piece) and she'll just bite and bite, then pop her dummy in, then bite and bite, then pop her dummy in. She's started wanting to suck/chew on my hair too, while her dummy is also in her mouth. I find the hair one gross and obviously not convenient, and I just plain don't like it. DH just gets frustrated by the teddy biting, but we don't know how to stop her, why she's doing it, if we even should stop her etc.
Hmm, yeah. It's definitely something we are considering doing, but I'd be kidding myself if I said now was the right time to take on something so significant. Maybe when DD2 is bigger, when I have time and energy to really focus on it.
Well, it's been an hour and counting trying to get DD down to sleep. DH has come home and taken over. I'm so demoralised
PZ - hugs to you. Sometimes, I get sick of doing the dinner/bath/bed thing on my own for days on end and 'cheat' and put on a DVD. DD2 often falls asleep to that and then I just pop her into bed. Again, she might be a bit young. But most kids seem to like In The Night Garden.
Another thing that works with DD2 is finding the right book. I found that if I read ones that were too simple and repetitive, she got to know them really easily and would then keep herself awake being Mrs Pointy Pointy. The feminist in me hates reading her fairy stories about princesses etc. but I find the longer ones much better and they don't have repetitive phrases in them. Depending on what time we start, she often falls asleep after a few pages. Other times might take much, much longer. Again, the key for her is what time we start to try putting her down to bed.
I know you're pretty incapacitated at the moment so can't really take her out but if DH is sometimes around during the day can he take her out for a walk. DD2 really needs physical exercise as she doesn't burn off much energy at home.
I really hope you find something that works. I know how demoralising it is to be spending all that time trying to get a little one to sleep.
Need suggestions for DD's sleep
I just want my children to be as contented and safe as I can make them feel.
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks