The smacking debate

[JordieC]

I actually don't want to talk too much about smacking here but because it has been in the news a few things have run through my mind. Firstly, I was smacked as a child (not very often) and I turned out fine but I know I won't be smacking our kids (well I dont think so) because I know it's just not the way to teach them. But aside from that my question is about OTHER forms of physical restraint that never gets classified as smacking yet could be as harmful if not more so than smacking.

I have plenty of times, seen parents either at the shops or at school grabbing their kids with such force it takes my breath away. I've seen squeezing of wrists and I've seen forceful yanking of arms. Surely these things are just as bad?

My other qustion is that if your child was in a dangerous situation and rather than smacking them, you grabbed them forcefully would this be just as bad? I know you're trying to remove them from the situation but what if they are hurt physically or emotionally by this? What do you guys think?

I remember when I was a kid if we were playing up in public my dad would squeeze tha back of our necks and whisper for us to calm down/stop etc. It didn't exaclty hurt but we knew straight away what it meant. IS this just as bad? Do we say no physical restraint at all?

[Tinks]

They are really hard questions to answer, I can't say I've ever been in a position where i've physically hurt my kids. I don't smack but used to hold them firmly to restrain them as toddlers. Now that they're older I find other forms of punishment like taking something away for a certain amount of time or banning playstation or wii more effective. I never make threats I can't follow through with and the kids know that if I threaten them with somehting it's going to happen and usually stop the behaviour.

But everyone is different and I don't ever judge anyone who smacks their kids.

[MantaRay]

Oh Jordie. These are all very good questions and I suspect we will get some interesting debate from them.

Firstly, I have smacked. I don't agree with it and never thought I would, but for various reasons we did try it with DS1 at one stage and decided it was not an effective tool. It sends the wrong message, it can be done in anger which sends an even worse message, it can lead to "taking it too far" and really hurting a child. And it just, plain and simple, does not work as well as gentler methods of discipline. I find explaining things and finding consequences that fit that action (eg if a toy is thrown it is taken away for a week) works far better.

Other forms of physical discipline are, IMO, worse than smacking. Again, it sends a totally wrong message - it says to your child "it is ok to use force if you are angry or to get what you want". And that is exactly what your child learns.

But as for grabbing with force to keep a child out of danger - I don't think this does any harm and often there is no alternative. What is the difference - well, it's occassional for one thing, and will probably not be remembered by the child down the track. A frequent occurrence would be, but not a one-off. And also it's necessary - the lesser of two evils so to speak. I have not had to do it often, but with two kids and one adult, there has been the odd occassion where I have had to grab one of the boys by the arm to stop them running onto a road at a carpark.

And please can I remind everyone to express your opinions thoughtfully. It is possible to disagree tactfully.

[rhyb]

I am quite funny on this actually. In my mind I dont want to smack unless it is a last resort to stop Aiden from doing something dangerous (when hes older mind you). I have no issue with picking up a child to remove them from a situation or to defuse a wobbly, BUT it gets me when parents pick up their 15kg- 18kg child by their wrist alone. That will cause harm and is unacceptable. There is nothing wrong with grabbing your child to prevent something worse happening (eg wandering off with strangers or in front of a car) but force is not necessary to stop a toddler, just a firm grip.

[Rachel]

I don't have a problem with smacking to teach discipline, but having said that, it should never be done in anger, it should be an absolute last resort and there is definitely a difference between smacking to startle the child and abuse. I have only smacked my daughter twice and it did work but this was only after trying every other possible tool I could think of and we remained calm throughout it. I was smacked as a child and have no emotional/physical side effects..and in all honesty as we got older we didn't get smacked because we just knew when we had gone too far. So although I don't have a problem with smacking for discipline..it needs to be an absolute last resort and should definitely not cause injury (it also needs to be done in context..don't smack for everything you don't want them to do, only very serious things otherwise it won't work and could possible teach them it's ok to hit). Discipline is one of the hardest challenges a parent faces!

[onthefly]

Good questions indeed.
My main objection to hitting is that it just isn't effective. first, it seems like parents have to keep ratchetting up the violence to get their kids to take note, which ultimately goes way beyond that 'little smack that never hurt anyone'. also, when you hit a child , they don't learn the lesson you want them to. Do they go away and think 'Oh, that was bad. I should never do that again'..? (think back to when you were a kid and punished this way, if you were) Or do they think 'I'll be more careful not to get caught next time' or 'Mum's so mean to me, I hate her!' and so on?

I also agree that it definitely sends the wrong message about conflict resolution - pretty much what MantaRay said.

I do also agree, though, that if you are preventing some injury or removing your child from harm then it can be ok to physically remove them. This would only be a rare occurance and quite different to physically restraining or hitting a child just because they're doing something you don't like.

[christy]

Okay, our story....

Matilda is an escape artist who has sensory processing disorder. She actually can't hear if there are other noises going on. So if she was running away in the shops, I would often reach out to grab her arm because she is faster than I am. Sometimes this appears forceful, but its not meant to be, its to protect her (as she has made it into car parks before...). Its worse for DH, as he is taller that people think he is abusing her... when he is trying to protect her.

Sometimes we have to put a kicking/screaming/biting child under our arm & leave quickly.... this has to do more with Matilda's special needs than anything else. Sometimes we run out of things like toilet paper at home and have to go get some.... and sometimes just going into the shop can trigger this for Matilda.

I don't smack. I have enough issues helping her cope with life and having to physically restrain her than having to smack...

So my reason for saying this... is that people judge us from those instances in the shops. DH had someone at the airport once say she was going to call DOCs on him for restraining Matilda as she was trying to run away. Its horrible.... awful... to be judged when you are trying to protect your child from injuries or worse yet, being lost in a public place...

[MantaRay]

Christy. I agree that people can easily get the wrong impression. My boys are fortunately not bolters - but even we have had times when I've had to grab. I am sure every parent has this at some stage, some more often than others. It certainly goes to show that you can't judge people by what you see - things are not always what they seem.

[*charmalea*]

hmmm .. Smacking to be abusive is NOT ON .. its sad to hear about any harsh form of child abuse ..
A smack here and there (as a last resort only) is done occaionsally in my house ..EG the other day DS pulled EVERYTHING out of my wardrobe ,went stright to time out , after i put EVERYTHING back .he cam out of time out , to do it again . time out again .. this went on for a bit it was clear that time out that day was not working . so on the third time out i said "next time you will get a smack"

so over he went and pulled my make up tray out , so i smacked him . just like i said ..

i felt guilty all night for it . but it stopped him . i t was my last resort .. and yes it was done out of my frustration ( some thing i never wanted to do is to take out my anger on my child) but what was done was done .. he hasnt done it since .

I dont think smacking everyday for minor things is OK .. grabbing by wrists and arms etc , is i guess a reflex . if DS is doing something dangerous i grab. he he needs to calm down i hold him firmly but the shoulders and get him to look in my eyes ..

if i notice i am grabbing too hard i immeadatlety relaese my grip (if possible) and make a mental note to calm down ..

you see , in my expereince its all down to the parent . i for instance have PND/ANX/OCD .. and i do strongly believes it can affect my coping ability .. if im having a bad day the chances of my getting quite uptight are pretty high ..

I do believe that every one situation is differnt. like Christy . if you saw that happening you'd be quick to judge ... but if you knew the story behind the familys behaivor you'd be quick to help !

however ... I really cant see how regular smacking can disipline a child .. like MR has said , gentle disipline and firm rules helps a child to understand whats right and wrong ...

things like smaking can have long term damaging effects ... im not sure if grabbing has the same affecting .. Its not like you intend to hurt your child when you grab , just to startle/save them.

smacking although a reflex, can also become repeditive behaviour , thats when it causes trouble

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I was smacked as a child... and am not fine. But I think that's more me than the smacking!

I get judged for using reins so I really don't care what other people think about how I care for the lad athe best way for us. I don't smack. I don't bite. I don't hit. I think about how I want to be treated in this situation. I also consider the information wrt the world DS has and use those filters.

Would I like to be smacked? No. Would I like to be screamed at for something I didn't know was wrong? No. Would I like to be picked up and carried under someone's arm kicking and screaming? No. If the alternative were doing something dangerous that I had already been warned about? Pick me up gently with a cuddle and remove me from this, if I squirm so I'm held under your arm around my waist and scream and kick it's my issue. When I pick DS up I make sure it's safe for the both of us. Other people may judge but I have stopped caring: if you judge me poorly for being a good carer then you obviously didn't have children!

Quite often I've held the reins so DS's choice is to stop running away or fall on his bum. Physical restraint. He was running for a duck pond at the time and was near the edge. Needed physical restraint.

Just because I haven't smacked yet doesn't mean I don't want to! Also, DS loves having his bum patted so I don't think it would work too well. Oh, I do put pressure on DS's shoulder to stop him. Enough pressure so he looks at me and if he's tired or in a bad mood he screams about it. But not enough to hurt or even shock. Just a little bit more than stroking him or touching him normally really.

Oh yes, and DH and I have both picked DS up by the arm. It's the only way sometimes and only for a second so we can grab him properly. The alternative is running onto a road. Or sometimes because we're swinging him on the walk home, that's both arms and quite rare, but he does love it.

[Matryoshka]

I think its the type of force behind the yank/pull/grab that deems whether it is harmful to the child.

If its a pannicked fear stricken grab/shove to protect your child from running on to the road, then that kind of energy is relayed to the child as positive because there is no intent to hurt, the intent is to protect.

Whereas if the yank/grab/shove to prevent your child running on to the road is out of anger and frustration that they are disobeying you and putting a strain on you because you now have to react, then that creates a negative energy which i believe is felt through whatever action you use on your child.

Children are much more sensitive and in tune that we think, and i believe they feel the difference and react accordingly.

Ultimately i believe children will only behave as well as they are treated.

[rustygirl]

I will be smacking my son. I was smacked as a child but I was NEVER smacked in anger or physically abused or anything along those lines. It was always very controlled. I was told that I was going to get a smack for whatever I had done and that I was to go to my room. (If we were out in public, my mum would pull me aside and tell me that when we got home I was going to get a smack) When she came to the room with the wooden spoon she would ask me why I was getting the smack and I would tell her. Then I had to bend over and she would give me a firm smack on the bottom with the spoon and tell me not to do it again! I can't see anything wrong with that?!?!? It is the smack out in public to humiliate the child and the passing whack or grab that is abusive and destructive because you are instilling fear into your child. Also if you use your hand instead of an object your child will associate you with the pain, that is why you have to use an object like a wooden spoon, so that they know that if they do something wrong that spoon is going to smack them on the bottom and it is going to hurt. I can guarantee you that it stopped me from doing naughty things when I was a child.

[JordieC]

I agree about how people judge when they don't know the situation - obviously I have done that in the past. I guess this proves though that they can't make it a law because there is often a reasonable cause for doing the physical restraint yet there are always those STUPID and HEARTLESS parents who do it simply because they don't know any better and actually hurt their kids. I just wondered how they were going to make it a law when there are so many variations: it's the extreme end of these things (smacking and restraining) that cause the issues, not the small things.

[Loula]

I don't have a problem with smacking to teach discipline, but having said that, it should never be done in anger,

I like how you put this! well said, anger and frustration are what can make it an aggressive act.

Coming from a childcare education background, it is against all our training to do this and we work with other strategies to avoid this - and they do work! im sure there are many people who have seen 'that child' and have thought to themselves 'oh he just needs a good smack'. we deal with children with additional needs and other parents would make this comment. It is about education both for the parent and child

However not everyone had the training we have, and i don't say that in a way to belittle any mother- at the end of the day you know your child and you know what works! However we do have some parents come to us asking for advise or strategies that they can put into place as the only smacking they are worried about is that they will smack out of frustration or anger and they don't want to.

Answering this is hard for me as i obviously have no children of my own (yet, and not through not trying, see sig), but given the field that i am in i have some background in the area! For me, Interaction, intervention and education are the key to managing behaviour.

ETA - i grew up with emotional abuse from my mum's partner and this was just as scaring

[myson]

christy. thanks for sharing. i will remember your story next time i am in the shops and i see a kid who i think "just needs a good whack". thankyou for educating me and broadening my mind.

rustygirl. I think we had the exact same upbringing. and it didnt hurt me one bit in the long run.

[Rouge]

Definitely do not agree with smacking.

And I have one child who was quite saintly when little (and still is), and one mischevious, escape artist for a son. Yet whilst my parenting approach may differ for each child (think 5 languages of love) I have never had to resort to smacking. I think you can parent without it if you choose to, its just what you are comfortable doing.

[~clover~]

I smack when it comes to danger. I have recently just once smacked DS on the hand as he was playing with a power point.
Now I don't really agree with it, but I'd tried moving him & distracting him, but he kept going back to it. I didn't do it hard enough for it to register, it actually just distracted him coz he'd never seen it before, & finally the power point was forgotten about.

When DD1 was 2 she worked out how to open the screen door. One day she took off up the road. I tried calling her & ended up having to run & get her. I took her home & gave her a smack on the bum & told her she was naughty etc.
The next day she did it again. This time she kept running up & around the corner. I was lucky that she'd had it drilled into her head that the road was very dangerous & never walked on it, but this time I smacked her as soon as I got her, there on the corner. She scared the life out of me.
She never did it again after that.

I don't like smacking & very rarely do it. DH & I used to fight about it constantly as he believes a child needs it & more.
If I'm in public I have grabbed Jaz firmly on the wrist. She can be a real handful in public coz she thinks she can get away with it & will get Bri to run off in the shops or will try a tanty on.
So I am guilty of grabbing her by the wrist or arm even & getting down to warn her not to do what ever it is.
Honestly I don't like doing it & I don't think I would ever do it to Bri, but she's a different child. She'll react to me saying we will go home, or me taking something away for the day. Jaz isn't fazed in the slightest.
I packed a room full of toys into a garbage bag 12 months ago because after like 3 weeks she still refused to clean them & she just shrugged her shoulders.
So I believe that each child is different. Things work differently for every family & every child. Hopefully Jaz will stop being so difficult soon, but she is stuck on the fact that her & Bri aren't treated exactly the same.
She thinks that if I get Bri drinks during the day, or for bed that I should get her one too. She is nearly 7 & should be starting to do these things herself, but refuses coz her 3 year old sister doesn't have to.
I was smacked. It didn't bother me. I knew what was right & wrong, I knew there were consequenses for my actions, & I'm far from violent now. I never have been. Neither are my brother or sister.
I think everyone is different & as long as a child isn't actually hurt form the force I think parents should be able to choose how they discipline.

[paradise lost]

I don't agree at all with smacking for my family. Put plainly i would not tolerate violence from anyone, especially not those whom are supposed to love me, and i don't want to teach DD or any kid that she should. If DP hit me to resolve something i would walk out, DD doesn't have the option, so it's up to me not to put her in that position. I once smacked her hand in anger and felt like utter crap for weeks. I could tear up thinking about it even now.

As for rough grabbing...

Well once or twice i have grabbed DD to prevent her running into the road. There was no option, she was seconds from death (literally, it was buses both times i remember!) and i grabbed the nearest bit of her, once her hood and (unfortunately) some of her hair, once her arm. Both times she looked scared and shocked. But you know what, i WANT her to be scared of the road. She's a bolter and very brave, willful and resilient and would be dead by now if i didn't use physical restraint sometimes.

If i see that she's getting cross or frustrated about something i lie her across my lap, face down, and gently tickle her back. She loves it (it's a move from our baby-massage days) and blisses out quite quickly. When she's ill i sometimes spend days just sitting on the sofa stroking and tickling her back...

I frequently hold her arms while she's tantruming, because she smacks me in the face and has both bruised me and broken the skin (with her nails) before. She is WILD when she kicks off. I mean, hands up who's had their OWN boot thrown at their face full-force because there are no raisins left - and she has fabulous aim! Often when she gets herself into that sort of state i use a technique i call (in my head) Hug It Out. I hold her. Tight. Very tight. I let her rage against my grip but i hold her in a hug firmly enough that she can't really hit or kick. I whisper to her, that it's ok, that i'm here, that she can breathe and be calm when she's ready. She headbutts too now so i generally hold her close with my head over her shoulder to minimise the swing she can get in. Within a minute she'll cry. Once she's crying she stops fighting and i release her gradually until her sobs are subsiding and she's just cradled against me. This is our way through. Others have told me to just leave the room and let her get on with it, but i didn't CC her and i don't think me dismissing her tantrums or ignoring them is where i want to be as a mum. I don't encourage that sort of expression, but i can at least anknowledge how she's feeling.

Bx