I'm probably going to be the "unpopular one" in this debate be oh well such is life.
I was BELTED as a child.. not 'smacking' im talking jug chords, closed fists, spatulars the lot. And I am not against smacking. I AM however against seriously beating the crap out of your child, that is totally not on. A smack on the hand enough to get a childs attention is what I agree with. Fully wolloping your child and leaving marks I dont like, no one deserves to be hit like that. And quite frankly if a grown up did that to me in public it would be on for young and old. Anyway I digress.. I fully believe in discipline because kids now days can get sooooo out of control. So imo, a smack on the hand is fine imo and parents who do it shouldn't be labeled 'abusive' because they give their child a smack. I think imo the way it should be done is warnings first then last resort smack. Don't just smack the child straight away.. Anyhoo.. jmho...
I feel like its said time and time again that smacking = discipline, and that kids need discipline. I wonder why people view non-smacking and not disciplining?
In regards to judging people at the shops, if i see them smacking, i feel sorry for both the child and the parent. I don't assume they are a bad person, just that they perhaps don't have the tools or support to parent and discipline gently.
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I was smacked as a child, with a thong and a belt. It was done in anger, but not often; it hasn't damaged my relationship with my parents, and I'm not angry that they did it.
Having said that, I don't see a need to smack my children. Molly has been smacked twice in four years; one of those times was probably warranted, but the other was out of frustration more than anything.
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Hi all,
First off, I admit I haven't read all the posts here.
I don't think I will smack my ds. But never say never- we have no way of knowing what will happen in the future. I don't judge or particularly disagree with parents who do smack, each to their own method of discipline.
The reason I am noping not to smack is I quite acutley remember the feeling of shame, humilation and helplessness that washed over me every time I was smacked as a child. I'm not sure that, with that memory intact, I could do the same.
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I'm bewildered by this, too. In fact, discipline doesn't actually mean the same thing as physical punishment.I feel like its said time and time again that smacking = discipline, and that kids need discipline. I wonder why people view non-smacking and not disciplining?
The type of discipline I use for my child (because there IS more than one type) respects him as a person, respects his ability to make choices (REAL choices, not 'choose my way or be smacked') and gives him courage to try new things (instead of worrying it might be the 'wrong' thing, or might 'make mummy mad') openly without being furtive to avoid getting caught.
To me, smacking and punitive punishments are an extension of 'baby training', and some BB'ers already know what I think about that kettle of fish :P
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I never said I smack or would smack for smacking. I just thought your thoughts on childrens behaviour being a reflection on the parents.
I think theres a difference between "play" fighting, and common arguing, disagreements, snatching etc - My toddler does hit my baby and we have worked through this through words - and through COMFORT i have helped him to work through his stressors that lead to him hitting his brother.
Never have i had to smack to stop him hitting his brother.
And wouldn't it be awfully ironic if i did
Just remember your children are still very young, they get worse the older they get. My boys fight, smack, push eachother but I don't do it to them, they just do it because they are children, I am yet to meet any parents with kids 4 and up who don't fight
That is exactly how I see it too, only you put it in better words then me
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Discipline means "to teach" not "to hit". You can teach without hitting - else I'm sure more of us would be homeschooling!
My son bites. Oooh boy does he bite. Just before Christmas he drew blood on another child at Nursery. He gets quite a vampiric look to him before he bites too, so we can avoid it most of the time. I don't bite! It's not a reflection on learnt behaviour at all because I always withdraw from DS when he bites and playing/cuddling stops. If DS is teething then he is given something he may bite, but still gets the idea it's not on.
A lot of children who hit have parents who refuse to hit - but also who refuse to discipline too, because they see disciplining as hitting or as forcing a child to be something he's not. I'm happy to force my child to be a non-biter! But I suppose it is quashing his natural instincts a bit. I give him a free rein while it's safe, but he has to respect other people just as we (try to - I'm not saying I'm not a bit "my way or the highway" sometimes which I don't have to be) respect him.
I agree, really young children who routinely use bad language in context (I'm not talking about the f-word for truck or fork or whatever) have parents who likely as not do that too, in front of their children. But language use, while it may seem crude and unneccessary, isn't abusive.
Thinking on language, we do "danger, danger, danger" as well as "hot hot hot!" a la Big Cook Ben: things repeated in threes seem to really do the job with children!
If we're being literal "to discipline" means "to teach". So long as i stay mindful of WHAT i am teaching DD with my discipline (and no, it's not always what i wanted to teach her or thought i was teaching her!) i feel i'm on the right track. I personally can't find any valuable lessons she could gain from me hitting her, but she's only one child, and not like any other.
Mayaness how far do you take the unconditional parenting? I had a friend online in the US who went to UP and then to consensual living, but when she told me she'd been grocery shopping at 2am for 3 months because her toddler "didn't like" the supermarket and wouldn't go to bed before 1.30am or "let" her go out without him while he was awake i thought, to be honest, that she was a bit barmy! I let DD get the natural consequences for some things but others i don't because i view them to be too harsh (like i encourage sharing now because i can see having no friends from the age of 4-14 is a bit of a tough way to learn, ditto learning why you shouldn't run into the road by being killed under a bus). But i'd probably stand back even if i SAW DD in the situation you describe and let her fall unless i could see terrible danger. Having said that we just bolted the fireguard to the wall because my DD must be the only kid in the world to lift a RED-HOT coal from the fire and NOT get burned! And when i said "do we touch the fire?" as she cried (it's hurt, just not actually burnt her) she said "Yes mama!"
Bx
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Bec, your friend is mad! Although I do buy DS a book every time we go to the shops just to keep him quiet while we shop. That lasts most of the way round, then I let him help find stuff for me. And help pack bags. Sometimes, if it has been a LONG trip and he has been good in other shops he may get a small Thomas toy instead. Oh the joys of having the tiniest bit of leeway in your budget! And having a DH at home who usually babysits - and tough if DS isn't 100% happy about it, Daddy can look after a Liebling!
But I am aware I do impose my will on DS quite a bit. Like he has to get dressed so Mammy can go to work or go to the doctors - I have to get him up, ready and out the house. And not in his pyjamas. I tend to feel that when he is an adult, I will respect his rules for his family and his house so while he lives with me (even though atm he doesn't have a choice in it) he has to respect my rules for my family and my house. He also has to go to bed at a reasonable hour, usually before 8pm, because I need recharge time and adult time.
Oh yes, and if we turn up in casualty again with DS then we'll have the social services round! Only reason that hasn't already happened is because the doctors didn't flag it up properly after telling me they were going to. I don't want to be investigated and labelled as a bad mum because a child in my care has to be taken away.
Oh dear Ryn, Re: the bad language...
DD has a stuffed toy called Bedtimelamb (bee'emlam she calls him). The other morning she had her breakfast then marched into the living room and, hands on hips, demanded "Where's my bloody bee'emlam!?" Dunno where she got that...
DD actually loves the supermarket, she likes to read the numbers on the aisle signs and shelves, so she's no bother. I agree with respecting boundaries, but i have to admit, i'll take DD's counsel on when and where and how to shop when she's paying for the food and carrying it home herself!!! LOL.
Bx
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Personally, I hate parents laughing over how their child know to use the f-word as an obscenity. I find that most distasteful. The odd slip-up is human but encouraging it just really isn't nice!
I wish my Liebling were happy in a supermarket! He just hates sitting still or looking at food he can't eat right now.
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I do this too, only do many times I can say don't swing down from the bunks or don't jump off the couch or don't be silly on the scooter... at the end of the day hurting themselves, if it's minor, can be just the wake up they need.
DD has a stuffed toy called Bedtimelamb (bee'emlam she calls him). The other morning she had her breakfast then marched into the living room and, hands on hips, demanded "Where's my bloody bee'emlam!?" Dunno where she got that...
I think I might have said it the week before...
However I didn't laugh, I told him it was naughty to speak like that and very rude. One day he came back from my sisters saying F*** and I stopped that quick smart by saying "where's the truck?" everytime he said it (was about 2) and he stopped after a few times. Have to admit I laughed at first, out of shock more than anything else.
I HATE smacking! but
i am/wasone of these!!those STUPID and HEARTLESS parents who do it simply because they don't know any better and actually hurt their kids
i was smacked! its the only way i was taught how to to deal with frustration, anger, disapointment,loss!!
but i am working on it my dh never wanted to smack our kids(before having them) but i was like a few of the other posters! "oh im fine i turned out ok" but the first time i smacked my son i freaked out!!! It is wrong to smack someone who has no concept that they really arent doing something the way we as adults think it should be done!
ds has probably been smacked 15 times over his 3 yrs. each time it is me that ends up crying and apologising!! im learning new techniques all the time to become a better parent. but dont assume because i hurt my child(yes i hate myself for doing) that its what i want to do!
we now use something similar to 1-2-3 magic but im not perfect im learning this parenting game as well as trying to break the circle( not of abuse) but of bad parenting...
sorry ill stop rambling!
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Bec - I don't think I've considered how far to 'take' unconditional parenting. What I've taken away from reading the book has not been difficult to integrate into my life with DS. Actually, it did more affirming of how I relate to him than change my world. I have a kid who has never been rewarded extrinsically or punished to extract co-operation, so what happens is that when he has to do something that's out of his control, he adapts well to it and realises that there are things mummy has to do that he doesn't get a say in. I wish it weren't so, but it is, and I do apologise to him for taking away his agency in those cases - I do work to keep situations out of DS's control to a minimum. I don't subscribe to "because I said so" parenting, even though DP is more inclined to do this! I really think that because I've been unconditional with DS since birth, it's easier for me to get down to his level (physically) and explain that we're doing something that's not his choice. I'll always look at ways to make it nicer to be disempowered...like packets of chips at the supermarket!! I know I get disapproving looks from other people when I just hand them over to him and I don't much care, cos I always get a "Oh, thank you, Mummy" in the clearest, most genuine voice! I haven't really had meltdowns out in public (and rarely at home, unless he's super tired) because I shove a boob in his mouth and he emotionally regulates in this way.
When he's been a bully to someone, I am careful to apologise to the victim, ask if they're ok and keep DS back from them. Lately I have been finding myself pulling him away and telling him not to hit - because I have felt this is what the other mothers want to see, so it's a PR exercise. I know he'll learn more by watching me 'tend to the injured' (as Bath puts it!) than by admonishing him and it's a personal battle to go against the PR exercise reaction and keep up the moral example, because the latter 'works' far better.
For example - when DS accidentally hits me with a broom (thinking of when he was 'helping' me sweep the hallway), or has a bad nipple attachment and I say 'ouch' he stops and says "oh, sorry, Mummy". I know it's because of when I apologise on his behalf to other people, and also because I've hassled DP to make sure he says sorry, please and thank you (another thread again, using P's and Q's - DS is following convention and that's fine - Kohn writes about Ps and Qs being explained to young kids by saying something like "people like to hear it", so that it becomes about human relations than understanding the arbitrary nature of gratitude and verbal utterances that go with it).
Anyway, I think I've done alright to establish the terms of our relationship on the basis of unconditionality. After reading Kohn's book, I made more sense of the complex way I relate to my own mother and I realise that if she had read the book and been ready for its messages, she would have parented the way Kohn writes about. I got emotional so many times through the book because he hit nails on heads. It infused me with so much compassion for DS, and also for my mum and dad.
It's not that hard to parent without smacking once you shift the way you relate to your kids
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This is where I'm at with it - I have a much higher level of emotional and intellectual functioning and it is an effort to simplify my life, re-prioritise a few things when DS just can't cope and to buggery (sorry, think this is a swear word in the UK!) with everyone else and their expectations of me. He doesn't understand the pressures I am under, nor should he, so I take his lead and when he's not up for something I use it as a breather and excuse to chill the hell out for a bit with him. Benefits both of us, really. After all, these other people who want me to be on time, or who want to see me being more rigid with DS using 'rules' and coercion will not be there to pick up the pieces, will they? Ultimately, it's me and DS against the world and I answer only to him and myself; I am responsible for his emotional wellbeing until he's mature enough to make his own foray into the world - I think I'm qualifiedsomeone who has no concept that they really arent doing something the way we as adults think it should be done
Thanks for that Mayaness
I am constantly shocked at how little people talk to toddlers. A man ran out of the bank and knocked DD to the ground the other week and apologised to ME! I said "it's ok, you can just tell her you're sorry" with a smile and he looked seriously like i was trying to utterly humiliate him! He mumbled "sorry" at her and she said, through her tears "Ok, s'a accident man" I was really proud of how she handled that but he was clearly utterly bewildered by the whole thing. I'm thinking of making her a tee that says "It's ok to talk to me, i am a REAL person!"
I tend not to "medicate" life's ills, like when she has to do something she doesn't want to, because i always try hard not to ask her to do things that don't benefit her in some way. So she HATES having her teeth brushed just now, but cavities are an unfair consequence (i hate my electric brush but i still use it! LOL) so i do it anyway, and tell her she has beautiful clean teeth with no holes in. Likewise in the supermarket she's usually great but if she's moany i just tell her we have to shop so we can eat and let her moan if she likes. I talk with her and sympathise, but i wouldn't offer chips (though i am mega-straight on that and give her NOTHING until i've paid! One of my hang-ups!) though i do often pop a favourite toy in my handbag to console her - actually i guess that's the same thing!
With hitting, i too apologise to the mother, the child and as you say "tend to the injured". I have also found myself talking to DD "oh no, the little boy is crying! DO you think maybe it hurt him when you hit him?". I find it distressing that people see badness behind the behaviour of kids who are actually unaware of the impact they're having on others. DD rarely hits and last time she did and the kid she'd hit cried she was TOTALLY shocked (probably because i hug her when she hits me! though i did cry when she smacked me in the nose with the boot because it hurt a lot..), she didn't anticipate the effect she would have at all. People so often see the behaviour and not the child.
It's so good to hear that your relationship with your son has such trust - no demands or expectation of chips, just a big thank you and cooperation!
Bx
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There's an interesting read in a book "Heart to Heart Parenting" by Robin Grille, that talks about smacking. He is totally against it, and talks alot about smacking "out of love' as opposed to anger etc. He said there's no difference. I found it very informative.
I was smacked as a child but am not sure if it was the smacking or emotional abuse that was worse. Can't quite pin point it, but I do know my siblings are both alcoholics....
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Just curious about no praising, Maya. How does that work? I'm a big conditional/constructive praiser. DS doesn't do things for a reward (because he gets enough hugs and kisses anyway) but I will tell him that I am going for a shower and he can play in the sitting room, then if he doesn't bother me for the 15-minute short shower (I have a 40-minute one if DS has a carer there!) I tell him he has been a good boy because he did as Mammy asked and that makes Mammy very proud. He does like "good boy" and "really useful engine" so I explain that he'll be a good boy in the shops by helping Mammy pick a potty out and waiting while I pay. He then has shop assistants telling him what a good boy he is! If I like his paintings, I like them because of something. If I like his dancing, it's because he's really into the rhythm or did a really funky move then.
I mean, yes, sometimes DS gets a present for a specified good behaviour. But not every time. And most of the presents I buy him are "because I love you" or "for being your wonderful self" and not at all behaviour related.
On a related note, he was soooo "good" today for me, the nurse was running 40 minutes late. For 30 minutes he was very controlled and played with the toy there and had some books read. Then he got bored and, like a healthy toddler, wanted to move about. He pushed his buggy about. Then he tried to explore the doctors offices, so I took him away from that. The second time he did a runner (about 3-4 minutes later because I distracted him for a bit) I had a woman tell me what a little monkey I had. What? He has behaved better than some adults do when waiting for an overdue doctor! (I've seen them at the hospital.) I smiled and said he is adventurous, I suppose sitting still for half an hour grew boring. I just think if you're going to criticise then praise as well!
If DS hits, I look after the other child too! I think it's only right they learn that this behaviour doesn't bring the reward of attention. I also make DS apologise. And yes, I've noticed that there are only a few people who talk to children and even parents think I'm mad for engaging with children as well as adults! How do you learn how to hold a conversation properly otherwise?
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