10 Reasons that might not be good enough for parents to stop vaccinating

[RockinSAHD]

On the rest, absolutely I am sure that is not what you meant but it is inferred with the 'barely making a profit'.

Ah, I read that part again and I had made a mistake, I meant "barely turn a profit by the money from the government alone". I don't deny that most doctors make a good wage, I'm just saying that giving vaccines isn't a good money making enterprise.

[Mad Scientist]

Thank you for sharing this important information

[Arcadia]

On the issue of adult vax, I think it's important to remember that adults have mature immune systems that can more easily cope with illnesses, whereas children are more vulnerable due to immaturity...so vaccinating children is just as much about helping their immune systems develop (through exposure to diseases) as it is about protection from specific illnesses. So vaccinating adults doesn't necessarily help children, because then they are not given the chance to build their own immunity itms? And vaccinations are 'safer' than the disease if you believe the government figures.

As for doctors and incomes...I think you'll find general medicine a pretty poor kind of life these days...which is why we're importing doctors from overseas, and why super clinics are being run by big multinational companies, because the regular gp in solo practice cannot make a decent living when fee increases are not proportional to the overhead increases.

[willow5]

When it comes to doctors and incomes I don't think there are a lot of doctors making$$$$ from giving or pushing vaccines, but they do get a kick back, like they do from some companies for recommending a certain drug. Every little bit helps specially if you aren't making heaps of money. I don't necessarily think that doctors purposefully try to mislead their patients, but they don't always research either, just tell you what they've been told accepting it with out any further question. As patients we trust them.

I understand what you're saying about building a child's immune system by being exposed to the disease, but even some professionals are now deciding that vaccines, and maybe more so the delivery method, is not the best way to go about it. Most diseases (preventable by vaccine) aren't contracted by direct contact through blood mixed with heavy metals etc. So by first contact this way (heavy metals or not) is not always going to give the response wanted, and can for some, be them the minority or not, have some horrible after effects. For some irreversible and life long.
I'm not suggesting to get rid off all vax. I'm saying it's really time to make some big changes. And people who choose not to immunise their children, after lots of research and looking at their family history, and making the decision in the best interest of their child, need to have their choice respected.

[RockinSAHD]

but even some professionals are now deciding that vaccines, and maybe more so the delivery method, is not the best way to go about it. Most diseases (preventable by vaccine) aren't contracted by direct contact through blood mixed with heavy metals etc.

Research shows that vaccines are very effective at preventing disease, despite being injected and with additives.

[entreat]

Great OP! & for the first couple of pages, I really liked the things being said, for & against. So much so, that I have maxed out the rep points I can hand out today.

Sadly, the rest has decended into madness again (with small glimmers of sanity). And that's the last I'll say on it, before I go & get accused of baiting (and subsequently banned) again.
Play nice people & stop taking everything so darn personally.

[delphmoon]

LOVE IT!

I agree...such pedantic nit picking going on...I too enjoyed the first few pages but in the end same old blah blah...meh...

SAHD- I love the fact you posted it- great job

[RockinSAHD]

but they do get a kick back, like they do from some companies for recommending a certain drug. Every little bit helps specially if you aren't making heaps of money. I don't necessarily think that doctors purposefully try to mislead their patients, but they don't always research either, just tell you what they've been told accepting it with out any further question. As patients we trust them.

The goventment is seriously cracking down on drug companies giving benefits to doctors too, though they find more and more creative ways to sway opinion it's not as easy as getting a "kick back" these days.

[LuluHB]

Thanks for the OP RSAHD. Really nice to see "the other side" represented in an intelligent way. I am very much a pro vaxer - first and foremost for the welfare of my own children, but also because I believe that my children being vaccinated benefits the community.

[willow5]

Research shows that vaccines are very effective at preventing disease, despite being injected and with additives.

I wasn't saying that vaccines are not effective SAHD. Just that the delivery method of injection may not be the best or most effective way. (I think you took that part of the post slightly out of context too, which is probably partly my fault for not quoting the post I was replying to) It's hard with a toddler pulling my hands and face away from the screen every time I go near it

What I was referring to was the immune response you get when injected as opposed to the the response when a vaccine is given via nasal delivery.There's a lot of research now saying that nasal delivery gives a better immune response than injection. Also nasal delivery could give a response closer to what the body would produce if coming into contact with the disease naturally. There may be less need for use of adjuvants in nasal delivered vax as if the immune response is better that way which would mean less other crap that needs to go in them IYKWIM?

[RockinSAHD]

I hope eventually the nasal spray technologies get a lot better and replace the injections too. The US has the nasal flu vaccine but I think it still has mercury, aluminium and because it's alive there's up to a 2.5% chance of getting the flu from the vaccine.

[Inertia]

funny, my father caught whooping cough from a non-vaxed child in FDC in our home (non-vaxed through admitted forgetfulness on the parent behalf, NOT a conscientious choice) - he'd had the boosters, and he still contracted it from her because he fell into the three high risk groups - former coal miner, former smoker, emphysema. immunisation status had nothing to do with it. months and months of him nearly dying every time he breathed too deeply cos he started coughing and couldn't catch another breath. months and months of delay in finding the cause - he was immunised, it wouldn't be whooping cough right? months and months of him not being able to be left alone because he was so unwell.

i'd be interested to see genuine studies that take into account transmission of communicable diseases when all risk factors are taken into account, not just immunisation status.


ooh, and on the work front - how many bugs that are transmitted at work actually have vaccines available? the flu vax (for instance) is only going to be effective against certain strains of flu, there is no vax (in adults) against gastro type bugs. they don't tend to be (in the general population) deadly in the same way that WC, HIb etc are in children with immature immune systems

vax rates are at their highest (from what i can gather - i'm not up for research now) amongst the most vulnerable within our community - the young, the old, the known immunocompromised.

I have been saying for ages, including in this thread, that immunised does not mean immune.
Also, who did the child catch it off? Unvaxxed children don't make it out of thin air.

You seeing it go from child to adult once doesn't change the fact that the majority of transmissions is from adults to children and other adults.

On the issue of adult vax, I think it's important to remember that adults have mature immune systems that can more easily cope with illnesses, whereas children are more vulnerable due to immaturity...so vaccinating children is just as much about helping their immune systems develop (through exposure to diseases) as it is about protection from specific illnesses. So vaccinating adults doesn't necessarily help children, because then they are not given the chance to build their own immunity itms? And vaccinations are 'safer' than the disease if you believe the government figures.

As for doctors and incomes...I think you'll find general medicine a pretty poor kind of life these days...which is why we're importing doctors from overseas, and why super clinics are being run by big multinational companies, because the regular gp in solo practice cannot make a decent living when fee increases are not proportional to the overhead increases.

I think it is something like 89% required for herd immunity. That is 89% of the population, not children.
Japan, the US and the UK all have 15yo booster and TDaP adult boosters (we only had ADT until 2009) and they have lower rates and less reported cases of Whooping Cough than us. 5000 in Japans population of 300,000,000 people is a darn sight more impressive than our 30,000 in a population of 21,000,000.

Adult vax IS important to protect babies. I think even RSAHD will agree with me on that one.

[MummaSue]

I I found that I am therefore in the minority of parents - I vaccinate for societal "greater good" reasons.

Me too!!

Great OP! & for the first couple of pages, I really liked the things being said, for & against. .

^^ What entreat said!! Thanks RSAHD!!

[RockinSAHD]

I have been saying for ages, including in this thread, that immunised does not mean immune.
Also, who did the child catch it off? Unvaxxed children don't make it out of thin air.

You seeing it go from child to adult once doesn't change the fact that the majority of transmissions is from adults to children and other adults.



I think it is something like 89% required for herd immunity. That is 89% of the population, not children.
Japan, the US and the UK all have 15yo booster and TDaP adult boosters (we only had ADT until 2009) and they have lower rates and less reported cases of Whooping Cough than us. 5000 in Japans population of 300,000,000 people is a darn sight more impressive than our 30,000 in a population of 21,000,000.

Adult vax IS important to protect babies. I think even RSAHD will agree with me on that one.

LOL! I do! But I'm starting to think YOUR a pharmaceutical rep!

[meow]

5) Vaccines can cause serious long-term side effects

We live in a rapidly changing world, we live in vastly changed homes, communities and environment. Expectations, living standards, life expectency, technologies, medicine and even the way that our bodies work are remarkably different than even a hundred years ago and are still changing faster than they ever have. Unfortunately this has caused new disease and vastly different ways to think about old health issues. These health issues are closely monitored and researched to find possible causes, one example is the MMR vaccine. Several studies have compared rates of autism in groups of children who have had the MMR vaccine with similar groups who haven't had the vaccine, these groups of children were all found to have the same rates autism.

I just saw a clip with a researcher saying the rates for autism were higher in non-vaccinated children. Perhaps due to parents identifying autism risk factors and then deciding not to vax? Causes of autism are still very unknown and vary for different children. It is possible vaccinations trigger autism for some children.

Interestingly the rate for shingles is higher in those vaccinated for chicken pox.

[Inertia]

LOL! I do! But I'm starting to think YOUR a pharmaceutical rep!

If I was, I'd be mighty bad for business as a delay vaxxer.

[~mamaspice~]

I just saw a clip with a researcher saying the rates for autism were higher in non-vaccinated children. Perhaps due to parents identifying autism risk factors and then deciding not to vax? Causes of autism are still very unknown and vary for different children. It is possible vaccinations trigger autism for some children.

Interestingly the rate for shingles is higher in those vaccinated for chicken pox.

Re: the shingles bit. Is the rate in vaxxed people higher than those who have had chicken pox naturally or just higher than the gen population? I'm guessing the rate is prob similar to those who have had the disease naturally. I guess it makes sense cause you need to have had chicken pox in order go get shingles so in effect having the vax is like having had chicken pox?

[meow]

Summary of the studies taken from our trusty source, Wikipedia The links to the studies are on there too though.

It has been claimed that adult shingles may increase after introduction of varicella vaccine.[24][25] Preliminary evidence that this has occurred is available from data collected from the Antelope Valley Varicella Surveillance Project (VASP) which began surveillance of shingles in 2000. VASP case reports indicate there was a statistically significant increase in adult shingles cases reported to the Antelope Valley Varicella Active Surviellance Project (VASP) from 2000 to 2003. The 56.1% increase from 237 cases in 2000 to 370 cases in 2002 yields a rate ratio of 1.4 (95% C.I. 1.2-1.7). Increases in cases of shingles reported to VASP occurred in every age category (except 70+) from 2000 to 2001. VASP also reported that verified cases of shingles among adults aged 50 years and older increased 27.5% from 2006 to 2007. (Annual Summary, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007 Antelope Valley Varicella Active Surveillance Project, Los Angeles County Department of Health Services; Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Cooperative Agreement No. U66/CCU911165-10; Mascola L, et al.) [26]

Varicella vaccine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia