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Im sorry, i probably should have said they have an 'undeveloped' immune system.
Just like the lungs on a premature baby, they dont function 100% until they are full term
The immune system is similar, its there but it doesnt begin to function until a certain age (approx 6months)
All the babies antibodies come from the mothers milk in the early stages.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
After my own research I decided that I didn't really mind if my child DID catch measles, mumps or chicken pox (and that's pretty much all they vacced for back then - babies anyway). Its one way to immunise, if they do catch it when they are young, so they don't have to suffer the implications of getting it as adults.
I can't seem to catch CP despite multiple exposures, and none of the kids have had it so far either. Both little ones have had mild cases of measles and mumps (and offers for other kids to come and play with them during this time!). They may catch CP too, but I won't immu for my own convenience.
I do review my decision every now and again - the quiet incubation period of most things worries me too sometimes, but then again I remember that all the kids in dp's family have caught CP etc WITH immu, so I can't see the point...
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
I'm still not convinced on this one.. why aren't formula fed babies dropping like flies from every disease/illness that's around? It MUST start earlier. Of course it's undeveloped.. they haven't been exposed to anything yet.. it's a fresh slate.
There was no immunisation going on when we were in the NICU? DD was a 34 weeker & we were in the public hospital's NICU for about a week and then moved over to the private hospital's SCN for another two. DD didn't have any needles.. we declined the Hep B, but that was all that was offered.
The thing I hate about reading up on vaccinations is they are always very onesided articles and worded in urgent almost sensational tones, and yet subtle at the same time. Both for and against. In the end we went with our gut, and that was basically that we would beat ourselves up more if our children suffered terribly from an immunisable disease than we would if they had an adverse reaction to the needle.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that vax'd kids can still catch the diseases, but hopefully it will be a much milder dose.
I also think it would be very hard to maintain that bubble we believe our children to be in when we keep them away from sick people. A lot of diseases are incubating even before symptoms show, and whilst you can keep bub himself away from a lot of it, you can't keep other kids & parents away from it all.
Is this the woman who will be interviewed on channel 7? Whooping cough claims Lennox infant | News | Lismore Northern Star | Lismore Northern Star
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I think it would be more accurate to say that the immune system is underdeveloped. As in, it still has a way to go. Which by the way is true for all of us. The immune system never finishes to develop. Mostly, it gets stronger. Until other factors, for example stress, illness, sleep deprivation or age compromise it.
So, it is not true that the immune system only starts functioning at a certain age. It is in fact functioning from birth. It is just weak in the beginning. Actually, the immune system is functioning before birth even, but the antibodies are borrowed from mum.
I like my father's comparison of the immune system to a muscle (he's a surgeon, by the way). It needs to be used to get stronger. Just like a baby has underdeveloped muscles when it is born and will get stronger by exercising those muscles, so will the immune system get stronger by being exposed to things. The aim is to increase these exposures slowly so it doesn't get crushed. Much like you hold your baby's hands when it is making its first steps, until it is strong enough, so does the mother's immune system support the baby's in the early days.
Sasa
Sunshine and SaramI read both of your posts nodding my head in agreement. Saram I get what you are saying completely your reasons for not immunising and mine are duplicated. Until I could be assured that my child would have no long term ill effects I would not inject her...
Liz: I think the immune system development was clarified earlier as being underdeveloped.
I find it incredible that your child was discharged from NICU and vaccination was not discussed! No child gets out of RBWH NICU without immunisation unless there are extenuating circumstances. This is one of the largest NICU's in Australia. It is actually hospital policy - and I had a steady stream of specialists in to tell me the danger I was putting my child in. They of course were correct on a level. Imogen due to her severe prematurity (for those of you who don't know she was born at 28 weeks) had and still does have a crippled immune system. She catches things far more easilty than her full term brother and sisters. Like another poster my home is a "toxic free zone". I use no chemicals in our house, we eat largely organic produce and little pre packaged food. Sleep and rest is important and I use complimentary therapies such as homeopathy when illness does strike.
Immunised children who contract the disease they have been immunised against generally have a less severe illness than if they had not been immunised.
I remember my neighbour whenI was a child had measles and he was so badly affected (he must have developed meningitis) that he was disabled afterward. I remember it being such a big and sad thing in the small town we lived in.
We also have to look in our society at how we utilise antibiotics. Wonderful wonderful lfesaving drugs but so very over used. Antibiotics do not cure a cold or a flu as these are viral illnesses. However, so many people dont feel like they have been looked after properly if they live the docs without a script.
In my Grandmas day scarlet fever was about - children were kept at homefor months because of it. My Grandma lost her sister to whooping cough. Unfortunately it still happens.
Is immunisation the ansewer? I can't dispute that immunisation helps keep the illnesses at bay -- we don't live in an age where we can remember polio. It was a dreadful illness irradicated maybe due to immunisation (or was it just the natural course of events...) I have spoken to adult survivors of polio - really it was just a tragedy. Travel to India and you begin to think immunisation is necessity. I just wonder if it is personally. We have good food, water, sleep, top class medical facilities. I know my family is a small study but none is vaccinated. We just don't seem to catch the bugs that go around. My girlfriend who is immunised to the hilt her kids all had measles int he recent outbreak that closed a school around here. My kids did't even have a sniffle but had played withhers frequently beforehand. I know that doesn't prove anything. It just makes me wonder. My kids wade in the mud, catch tadpoles int he creek, garden, clean out the chook pen. I wonder if our society has become too clean, too tidy, too sterile. Just a thought...
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Flowerchild - maybe it's because she was 34 weeks? Perhaps she was 'old' enough to not be as susceptible? There's quite a difference between a 28 weeker & a 34 weeker. What immunisations were they giving? I'd be scared giving vax's to a prem too.. it would be a very hard decision tho I think.
Our kids are so very rarely sick, and at most they have a bit of a temperature and sniffles. DS recently had bronciolitis (treated as asthma in the hospital, but GP disputed that diagnosis) and that's the worst he's ever had.. even then he wasn't that 'sick' just his breathing was quite laboured. Maybe our kids aren't sick because there's no way our house & garden are too clean, too tidy or sterile LOL.
There's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument, just as there is for formula & breastfeeding & illness. And it's quite hard to sift through it all.
TOTALLY agree with the antibiotics thing. DH & I hate antibiotics, and I cringe when I hear of people getting antibiotics every time they're sick. I think I've only filled in one script for Tallon, for an ear infection, he didn't get a script when he had bronciolitis. And I never fill in the scripts for me LOL. Oh.. except when my tooth was infected.. I dug up an old script & filled it and then told the dentist that's what I did LOL. Saved me a dentist visit where they would have sent me away to get rid of the infection first!
ETA: Forgot to say:I kind of feel the same but opposite - until I can be assured that my child won't get these immunisable diseases, in a dangerous form, then I'm more inclined to inject.Until I could be assured that my child would have no long term ill effects I would not inject her...
No Liz it wasn't just my baby. All babies were immunised before they were transferred out or discharged. All babies that were 8 weeks and over that is. So your baby not being a tiny prem probably was discharged prior to being 8 weeks old. This would be why immunisation wasn't given.
Whilst most things in a prems life go by "adjusted age". Immunisation, solids etc go by birth age. So this will be why your little one didn't get jabbed prior to discharge.
I just reread the India thing I wrote. To be clear. In travelling to India it was clear why immunisation is needed in those living situations. Poor hygeine, diet unclean water all add to risk factors. Whilst many white Australians do not live in these poor conditions perhaps the risk of illness is less.
It is hard to know which comes first the chicken or the egg. I have studied vax for years. I still come out shaking my head and being a fence siter that doesn't immunise!
I just cannot inject my pure little bubbas with a substance that is not proven not to cause long term ill effects. I have personally seen dreadful reactions to immunisation. I have a friend that had a perfect little bubba that post immunisation couldn't hold his head on his own... He is profoundly disabled now. Nope it can't be PROVEN that it was caused by the immunisation. It cannot be PROVEN it wasn't either. I like a previous poster feel I have more control over my child contracting a communicable childhood illness than I do over weather or not they will be adversely affected by the immunisation. I choose to keep my kids at home when they are sick or runny noses, I teach them about handwashing, about good eating habits, rest, sleep, vitamins etc. At least I know if they do catch one of these illnesses they are strong and resilient. For me it is the lesser of the two evils. As I cannot wve the "DO NOT IMMUNISE" banner - but I could not wave the "YOU MUST IMMUNSE" banner.
I do believe very very ardently that we immunise our babies too early. I don't believe their little bodies can cope with the onslaught of antibodies that is artificially implanted with immunisation. I think children should not be jabbed until they are at least 2 - and I also know that most deaths due to these illnesses occur in the first 12 months and that is why early immunisation is practised. Just my learned opinion and one that I follow. I immunise my kiddies when they begin preschool which is 4 years old here... 5 for my first two kids.
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I strongly agree to the point raised about antibiotic overuse. My in-laws are like that. They have a runny nose and run to the doctor straight away to get antibiotics. Oh, and once their symptoms are gone, they stop, without finishing the course of the treatment. I feel like slapping them for it. This is how antibiotic resistant strains of diseases are being bred. I think in 2008, my FIL took antibiotics on 5 occasions. I just don't get it. I think I have had to take them 2-3 times in my entire life.
I am so glad we have antibiotics. But they are serious drugs and should be reserved for treating serious conditions. And they should come not only with clear instructions from the prescribing doctor, but also with an explanation why the course has to be finished.
In general I think our society overuses pharmaceuticals. I mean, how many people reach for a panadol the minute the slightest headache starts. When maybe having a glass of water (without the tablet) would have cleared the headache, too. So many headaches are just a symptom of dehydration.
And I also agree with the point about our kids growing up in environments that are too sterile. My kids are not at a risk of that however. My in-laws think I should still only give DD (almost 2) boiled water to drink. Hey, she sticks a whole handful of sand into her mouth at the playground, but at least her water is sterile. (My dad always says that ingesting 1/2kg of dirt per year is good for you - just not all at once
- oh, and he's a doctor)
My DD is growing up in a non-sterile (or just plain grubby) household, she's selectively vaxed, I don't let her drink fluoridated water, I hardly ever reach for things like baby panadol, I used teething gel only once. She eats regular table foods, never baby food. She plays in the dirt and regularly with children who have a cold.
BUT, she hardly gets sick. She had runny poos a few times. But never full blown diarrhoea. She had bronchitis once when we flew from the Aussie summer into the German winter. And everybody around her was pretty sick. She seemed to handle it better than most of the adults. And once she had an episode of repeated vomiting that lasted for about 4 hours, and she's had a runny nose a few times. But that's it.
I think BFing had a lot to do with her strong immune system. But there is quite obviously a lot more to it. The problem is that nobody really knows. Not even the experts really know how the immune system works. It is all based on a little knowledghe and a lot of theory. And this is what scares me. Doctors tell us that vaccination is the ideal way to go. When really, they don't know that for sure.
I discussed each and every immunisation in detail with my father. I feel like I can trust him cause he has a similar attitude to things as I do. He never told me, what to do. Instead he gave me more info on the individual vaccines and the diseases they are meant to immunise against. Based on that, and research I had done on my own, I made up my mind. This is what every doctor should do, IMO. Rather than just repeating what the pharma companies have told them. the problem is that msot doctors don't have the time and motivation to keep up with the latest research on everything they might get asked about.
Sasa
Last edited by sunshine_sieben; May 29th, 2009 at 10:30 AM.
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
Trillian, I completely agree with your concerns about the "one size fits all" dosing of vaccinations. I agree that it is a potential problem that some vaccinations are used in the same strengths for a two year old as they are for a four year old - those of us who have had two and four year olds will appreciate the incredible difference in size and development between those years.
With regards to the pertussis (whooping cough) outbreak, we are right in the middle of it here on the mid north coast of NSW. There are a few factors that combine to make whooping cough the most common outbreak that we see of vaccine preventable disease. The pertussis vaccine is at best 90% effective, which means that even if you immunise every single person you will always have 10% of the population who are susceptible. Immunity from the vaccine wanes over time, so you will also always have a sizeable adult population who are not immune to it. And the contagious period begins before the classic "whooping cough" cough starts - in actual fact, whooping cough starts with nothing more sinister than cold and flu-like symptoms.
The good news is that you need a significant exposure to someone else with pertussis to catch the disease - something in the order of 2-4 hours of close contact. This is why it temnds to spread within families, but not so much among the general community.
Our paediatrician advised that given that we are expecting a new baby, we ourselves, and our two girls, should be immunised against it, which was quite surprising, given that he is reasonably anti-immunisation himself. We agonised over our decision, but in the end we decided not to. We are happy to be vigilant, and we have taught our girls a lot of basic hygiene, and they know that if they start to feel sick they have to tell us and that they can't then play, kiss, etc. the other person.
As far as being a carrier of whooping cough, there really isn't any such thing - if you catch it, you either develop symptoms or you don't, but even if you don't develop symptoms, you still only remain contagious for 2-3 weeks. After that you gain immunity for anything from 10-30 years. Same with the immunisation, unless you are in the 10% that doesn't respond.
I am glad to find this response. I did want to respond when I read Trillians post but saw yours. I just want to reiterate. Whooping cough does not remain latent to be triggered at another time. If you are exposed you will either develop the disease within the incubation period of 14 days or you will not. As Mick has said the condition begins as most childhood illnesses do with a runny nose, cold and flu symptoms. It is from this time that the contagious period begins.
Whooping cough outbreaks occur regularly - and whilst any international event will highlight the disease and increase the incidence of the disease it is not only these events. Whooping cough is nost prevalent in Brisbane in August (show time). Small babies, premature infants and immuno suppressed folk of all ages are most at risk. Open prams are great places to expose babies to these little gribblies. Just because people peer in, bend over and look etc.
Slings are the best way to move your baby around crowded places like shopping centres and shows etc - just keeps them out of the firing line as much as possible.
Small babies should be weighed prior to injection of an immunisation. As with most drugs there is a weight range for doseage. I actually haven't given immunisations for a long time so I am ot sure what they are now - but it was always a weigh in first... So maybe that's changed???
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just to be picky MIchael
That technically makes you a carrier for that period of time.but even if you don't develop symptoms, you still only remain contagious for 2-3 weeks.
I too think that BF isn't the be all and end all of immunity status too. It sure does make a difference - I don't doubt that for a second, but some people place too high a value on it kwim? Otherwise like Liz said earlier, FF babies would be dropping like flies with illness all the time. I agree that there is still a lot to learn about the immune system. I have done a lot of my own learning the past 6 mths or so due to my own auto-immune condition and the more I learn about it the more things just make sense to me.
Sunshine, we don't drink 'town water' here either, so no fluride or chlorine for us. We do have frog poo from time to time though and who knows what else is in our tanks that we don't know about LOL. I think that me being a bit sloppy with the disinfectant and letting the kids get into the dirt (and yep, even up at our sheepyards) does help alot to build their immunity. Interestingly last year our 2nd child was sick for several months with mild viruses she coudln't shake, and she is the one who doesn't get out in the dirt as much as the others - too girly LOL.
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