Dont want to immunise, but.....(Micheal??)

[AliBaby]

Don't ever watch channel 7 if you actually want real news or facts though!

true true. i just feel for this poor woman

[Lulu]

Hell yeah, I do too but I wont watch it....

FC, it's hard to know but I wonder since mine are older now......and since they both had such mild cases of mumps/measles - is it true immunity?

[~Saram~]

Flower child I agree 100% there is much more to immunity then vax! Looking after our diet and getting rid of a lot of the chemical crap in our house I believe has changed my kids immune system from catching everything under the sun to being very healthy and fighting things off well when they do.

Also not many of the vax in Australia use mercy or thimerserol as my dr (supportive of us not vac) told us.

Interesting to note that there are many vet studies coming out at the moment about over immunising animals and the effect it is having on them in regards to autoimmune conditions also???

As for the autism link the thing that sunk it for me after living with someone with autism and then having a child not affected with autism (that we can see yet) is that I felt I had more control over communicatable diseases than autism. and as I explained to a very argumentive dr who saw my daughter recently I could not bear to watch my healthy 2 yr develop symptoms of autism now after witnising her normal development. I could not live with myself. However I felt we had a much better chance at fighting of measles/mumps/rubella with moden medicine, helathy lifestyle and being viligent. If no-one is willing to promise me my daughter WILL NOT develop autism after being vac then it's not going to be a risk I take.

Also I had measles (12), german measles(10) and whooping cough (18mths) after being vaccinated????

[sunshine_sieben]

I am a selective vaxer. I declined the HepB at birth, didn't find that necessary. I did agree to the Vitamin K, but orally.
I didn't agree to the chickenpox, but DD had all the others.

The problem with the chickenpox vaccine, is that - as opposed to actually contracting the disease - in most cases, immunity from the vaccine won't last a lifetime. Seeing that not many of us keep getting booster shots as adults, this could mean an outbreak of adult chickenpox in 30 years time. Chickenpox is usually a lot more severe in adults, so this could cause serious problems in the future. Same goes for pregnant women. If they never contracted chickenpox, their fetuses might be at risk if the immunity from their childhood immunisation has worn off.

By the way, this is the same case for the Rubella shot (german measles). I, like most other young girls was vaccinated against it. But by the time I was thinking of starting a family, the immunity had worn off - if I ever actually developed it in the first place.
So, in my opinion, if these immunisations are given to protect unborn babies, they should be given as close to a girl's child bearing age as possible (rather than in infancy). And ideally followed up by a test to see if immunity was actually acquired.

I believe in considering every immunistaion individually. I think we all should weigh up the pros and cons of every immunisation and then make a decision based on whether or not we believe the benefits outweigh the risks. Cause one thing is clear: as with every medical treatment, there is always a risk.

I also believe that there is a need for more research into the long term effects of wide spread immunisations. There are so many questions still unanswered. So many theories out there.
None of us likes to see our children sick. But maybe the odd disease primes and strengthens our immune system.
And it is not only about whether or not we vaccinate, but also what we vaccinate with. As some of you have mentioned, it is the other chemicals and also other diseases that vaccinations can be contaminated with, that might cause the biggest problems.

What I really don't understand is when people say: "My older child just had disease xyz and he was so miserable for a week, it broke my heart. So I'm getting my younger child vaccinated." Of course it breaks our hearts when our littlies are sick. But to me, that is just not a good enough reason. If the child had contracted polio and couldn't walk, I would understand the position. But just because the child was sick, but had no lasting effects, in my opinion does not outweigh the risks you might run by vaccinating. On the other hand, having a runny nose and maybe an elevated temp after a vaccination, wouldn't make me think that the vaccination was a bad idea. It is the long term effects that have me worried and they are so complex that nobody really knows what is going to happen in the future. It's a bit like cane toads. It might eradicate one problem and create a whole lot of others. JMHO.

Yes, in rare cases, these "mild childhood diseases" (chickenpox mainly) can be very severe or even life threatening. But this is rare. And as pointed out above, even a vaxed child can still contract it.

Sasa

[Liz]

The immune system is similar, its there but it doesnt begin to function until a certain age (approx 6months)

All the babies antibodies come from the mothers milk in the early stages.

I'm still not convinced on this one.. why aren't formula fed babies dropping like flies from every disease/illness that's around? It MUST start earlier. Of course it's undeveloped.. they haven't been exposed to anything yet.. it's a fresh slate.

I had the wrath of the Gods on me when I refused immunisation of Imogen (very rare for a baby to leave NICU unimmunised).

There was no immunisation going on when we were in the NICU? DD was a 34 weeker & we were in the public hospital's NICU for about a week and then moved over to the private hospital's SCN for another two. DD didn't have any needles.. we declined the Hep B, but that was all that was offered.

The thing I hate about reading up on vaccinations is they are always very onesided articles and worded in urgent almost sensational tones, and yet subtle at the same time. Both for and against. In the end we went with our gut, and that was basically that we would beat ourselves up more if our children suffered terribly from an immunisable disease than we would if they had an adverse reaction to the needle.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that vax'd kids can still catch the diseases, but hopefully it will be a much milder dose.

I also think it would be very hard to maintain that bubble we believe our children to be in when we keep them away from sick people. A lot of diseases are incubating even before symptoms show, and whilst you can keep bub himself away from a lot of it, you can't keep other kids & parents away from it all.

Is this the woman who will be interviewed on channel 7? Whooping cough claims Lennox infant | News | Lismore Northern Star | Lismore Northern Star

[sunshine_sieben]

I think it would be more accurate to say that the immune system is underdeveloped. As in, it still has a way to go. Which by the way is true for all of us. The immune system never finishes to develop. Mostly, it gets stronger. Until other factors, for example stress, illness, sleep deprivation or age compromise it.
So, it is not true that the immune system only starts functioning at a certain age. It is in fact functioning from birth. It is just weak in the beginning. Actually, the immune system is functioning before birth even, but the antibodies are borrowed from mum.

I like my father's comparison of the immune system to a muscle (he's a surgeon, by the way). It needs to be used to get stronger. Just like a baby has underdeveloped muscles when it is born and will get stronger by exercising those muscles, so will the immune system get stronger by being exposed to things. The aim is to increase these exposures slowly so it doesn't get crushed. Much like you hold your baby's hands when it is making its first steps, until it is strong enough, so does the mother's immune system support the baby's in the early days.

Sasa

[Inanna]

Sunshine and Saram I read both of your posts nodding my head in agreement. Saram I get what you are saying completely your reasons for not immunising and mine are duplicated. Until I could be assured that my child would have no long term ill effects I would not inject her...

Liz: I think the immune system development was clarified earlier as being underdeveloped.
I find it incredible that your child was discharged from NICU and vaccination was not discussed! No child gets out of RBWH NICU without immunisation unless there are extenuating circumstances. This is one of the largest NICU's in Australia. It is actually hospital policy - and I had a steady stream of specialists in to tell me the danger I was putting my child in. They of course were correct on a level. Imogen due to her severe prematurity (for those of you who don't know she was born at 28 weeks) had and still does have a crippled immune system. She catches things far more easilty than her full term brother and sisters. Like another poster my home is a "toxic free zone". I use no chemicals in our house, we eat largely organic produce and little pre packaged food. Sleep and rest is important and I use complimentary therapies such as homeopathy when illness does strike.

Immunised children who contract the disease they have been immunised against generally have a less severe illness than if they had not been immunised.
I remember my neighbour whenI was a child had measles and he was so badly affected (he must have developed meningitis) that he was disabled afterward. I remember it being such a big and sad thing in the small town we lived in.

We also have to look in our society at how we utilise antibiotics. Wonderful wonderful lfesaving drugs but so very over used. Antibiotics do not cure a cold or a flu as these are viral illnesses. However, so many people dont feel like they have been looked after properly if they live the docs without a script.

In my Grandmas day scarlet fever was about - children were kept at homefor months because of it. My Grandma lost her sister to whooping cough. Unfortunately it still happens.

Is immunisation the ansewer? I can't dispute that immunisation helps keep the illnesses at bay -- we don't live in an age where we can remember polio. It was a dreadful illness irradicated maybe due to immunisation (or was it just the natural course of events... ) I have spoken to adult survivors of polio - really it was just a tragedy. Travel to India and you begin to think immunisation is necessity. I just wonder if it is personally. We have good food, water, sleep, top class medical facilities. I know my family is a small study but none is vaccinated. We just don't seem to catch the bugs that go around. My girlfriend who is immunised to the hilt her kids all had measles int he recent outbreak that closed a school around here. My kids did't even have a sniffle but had played withhers frequently beforehand. I know that doesn't prove anything. It just makes me wonder. My kids wade in the mud, catch tadpoles int he creek, garden, clean out the chook pen. I wonder if our society has become too clean, too tidy, too sterile. Just a thought...

[Liz]

Flowerchild - maybe it's because she was 34 weeks? Perhaps she was 'old' enough to not be as susceptible? There's quite a difference between a 28 weeker & a 34 weeker. What immunisations were they giving? I'd be scared giving vax's to a prem too.. it would be a very hard decision tho I think.

Our kids are so very rarely sick, and at most they have a bit of a temperature and sniffles. DS recently had bronciolitis (treated as asthma in the hospital, but GP disputed that diagnosis) and that's the worst he's ever had.. even then he wasn't that 'sick' just his breathing was quite laboured. Maybe our kids aren't sick because there's no way our house & garden are too clean, too tidy or sterile LOL.

There's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument, just as there is for formula & breastfeeding & illness. And it's quite hard to sift through it all.

TOTALLY agree with the antibiotics thing. DH & I hate antibiotics, and I cringe when I hear of people getting antibiotics every time they're sick. I think I've only filled in one script for Tallon, for an ear infection, he didn't get a script when he had bronciolitis. And I never fill in the scripts for me LOL. Oh.. except when my tooth was infected.. I dug up an old script & filled it and then told the dentist that's what I did LOL. Saved me a dentist visit where they would have sent me away to get rid of the infection first!

ETA: Forgot to say:

Until I could be assured that my child would have no long term ill effects I would not inject her...

I kind of feel the same but opposite - until I can be assured that my child won't get these immunisable diseases, in a dangerous form, then I'm more inclined to inject.

[Inanna]

No Liz it wasn't just my baby. All babies were immunised before they were transferred out or discharged. All babies that were 8 weeks and over that is. So your baby not being a tiny prem probably was discharged prior to being 8 weeks old. This would be why immunisation wasn't given.

Whilst most things in a prems life go by "adjusted age". Immunisation, solids etc go by birth age. So this will be why your little one didn't get jabbed prior to discharge.

I just reread the India thing I wrote. To be clear. In travelling to India it was clear why immunisation is needed in those living situations. Poor hygeine, diet unclean water all add to risk factors. Whilst many white Australians do not live in these poor conditions perhaps the risk of illness is less.

It is hard to know which comes first the chicken or the egg. I have studied vax for years. I still come out shaking my head and being a fence siter that doesn't immunise!

I just cannot inject my pure little bubbas with a substance that is not proven not to cause long term ill effects. I have personally seen dreadful reactions to immunisation. I have a friend that had a perfect little bubba that post immunisation couldn't hold his head on his own... He is profoundly disabled now. Nope it can't be PROVEN that it was caused by the immunisation. It cannot be PROVEN it wasn't either. I like a previous poster feel I have more control over my child contracting a communicable childhood illness than I do over weather or not they will be adversely affected by the immunisation. I choose to keep my kids at home when they are sick or runny noses, I teach them about handwashing, about good eating habits, rest, sleep, vitamins etc. At least I know if they do catch one of these illnesses they are strong and resilient. For me it is the lesser of the two evils. As I cannot wve the "DO NOT IMMUNISE" banner - but I could not wave the "YOU MUST IMMUNSE" banner.

I do believe very very ardently that we immunise our babies too early. I don't believe their little bodies can cope with the onslaught of antibodies that is artificially implanted with immunisation. I think children should not be jabbed until they are at least 2 - and I also know that most deaths due to these illnesses occur in the first 12 months and that is why early immunisation is practised. Just my learned opinion and one that I follow. I immunise my kiddies when they begin preschool which is 4 years old here... 5 for my first two kids.

[Trillian]

One thing that no one here has taken into account yet, and something that troubles me deeply, is that there is a 'one size fits all' mentality to dosage sizes. It worries me that tiny tiny babies are getting the EXACT same dose as a big chubba baby - now if you had a bottle of panadol, would you give a small baby the same amount as a larger baby? Definately not! So why are we so quick to do it with something far more toxic? I am one of the converted and stopped vaccinating when my youngest was 6mths old and my nearly 5yo did not have her 4yo vaxes. It just did not sit right with me to continue and at the time there was so much in the media about children getting sick when they were vaxed etc and it just made me wonder why do we bother? What is the point of knowingly giving them something so toxic in case they get something that will actually give them a more effective immunity?

I was never vaccinated as a child - none of my siblings were and we rarely get sick - and that was growing up with 2 parents who smoked. All 4 of us got chicken pox one after the other and I saw the toll it took on mum to care for us all - especially my toddler sister who got it awfully bad and that made me a staunch advocate FOR the cp vax, but after reading more about it and having loads of local instances of vaxed kids getting it changed my mind. Even with my youngest half brother he too was never vaxed and again is not a sickly person and has never gotten cp even when others at school did. I also had german measles as a child and I still have that immunity even now at 31.

I think part of the rise of whooping cough was attributed to World Youth Day where so many came in for that who come from countries where WC is rife and where they may be carriers of it. Don't forget that Australia is a relatively insular country - we are an island and are somewhat protected because of that, but if you have an influx of people coming from countries where these types of illnesses are common, then you have a huge problem right there. They may not be sick, but they may carry it and how do you test for that? You can't can you.

I do have concerns from time to time that I am doing the wrong thing by not continuing, but I have healthy children who also rarely get sick - and when they do it is with a cold, or other viral thing that cannot be vaccinated for anyway. And I am also confident in my abilty to deal with a child with cp or measles - Paige even had pneumonia last year and that was also treated at home and again was something that could not be prevented with vaccination. I do not believe in the flu vacc as it is a virus that mutates quickly and the vax is only based on the one strain that they THINK will be most prevalent and pose the biggest risk for that particular year.

For us it was the right thing to do.

[Liz]

hehe.. I'm the fencesitter who does immunise I would love to be a non-vaxer but it scares me more than vaxxing. So there ya go. Everyone makes their own choices hey

On a side note - our paed said solids was done on adjusted age.. so we didn't start solids until Kayla was 7 1/2 months (adjusted to 6 mths). Even then we went really slow coz her tummy just didn't like them much!

I feel confident I could cope if my child got CP or measles too, but the severe cases are just so sad. Just as the severe cases of reaction to the vax are sad. So yep.. I'm a fence sitter too.. just with a bit of a lean towards vaxing

[Lulu]

I think part of the rise of whooping cough was attributed to World Youth Day where so many came in for that who come from countries where WC is rife and where they may be carriers of it. Don't forget that Australia is a relatively insular country - we are an island and are somewhat protected because of that, but if you have an influx of people coming from countries where these types of illnesses are common, then you have a huge problem right there. They may not be sick, but they may carry it and how do you test for that? You can't can you.

Yes, true. I spoke to the health Dept after the mumps and they concur the fact we belonged to a VERY multicultural playgroup is a big factor. I didn't think of that at the time, but someone is always flying in and out of China or India..

[butterfly_warrior]

I have to say that as much as immunisations scare me, the illnesses scare me more. For now, we are vaccinating... however my fear of the MMR vaccine may overtake eventually, so I read all of these threads with interest.

Just noting the comment about world youth day being responsible for the increase in whooping cough... surely the time between then and now means it can't be? Or has it been on the increase since then and only just hit the news now? Also... was there a similar increase in the prevalence of such diseases after the olympics in 2000? There was another huge influx of people from all over the world then.

BW

[Trillian]

BW, there was a huge rise in cases just after WYD and the total amount was 13,000 reported cases and that was up 160% on the 2007 stats for it. It's been an ongoing thing since then. The trouble with some diseases though, is that they can stay dormant in a carrier for some time before becoming active. Some people live with these diseases in them for months, but need a certain set of conditions to make them become active and make the carrier ill - if indeed they get ill at all or they could only get mildly ill, but be able to pass it onto someone who gets really ill. ANd with a higher number of carriers after the WYD outbreak, then there are going to be larger outbreaks each successive time as there are now a larger number of unknown carriers kwim?

[butterfly_warrior]

Yep, thanks Trillian. I was unaware of the increase in outbreaks just after WYD, as far as I was aware it had only just started getting bad. But that could just be that I only now have a baby that I'm worried about keeping healthy so actually pay attention to these things now.

There's certainly an argument for more adults getting immunised for whooping cough at the moment.

BW

[Trillian]

Trouble is though, you would first have to be tested to see if you are a carrier or otherwise vaccination is pointless

[sunshine_sieben]

I strongly agree to the point raised about antibiotic overuse. My in-laws are like that. They have a runny nose and run to the doctor straight away to get antibiotics. Oh, and once their symptoms are gone, they stop, without finishing the course of the treatment. I feel like slapping them for it. This is how antibiotic resistant strains of diseases are being bred. I think in 2008, my FIL took antibiotics on 5 occasions. I just don't get it. I think I have had to take them 2-3 times in my entire life.

I am so glad we have antibiotics. But they are serious drugs and should be reserved for treating serious conditions. And they should come not only with clear instructions from the prescribing doctor, but also with an explanation why the course has to be finished.

In general I think our society overuses pharmaceuticals. I mean, how many people reach for a panadol the minute the slightest headache starts. When maybe having a glass of water (without the tablet) would have cleared the headache, too. So many headaches are just a symptom of dehydration.

And I also agree with the point about our kids growing up in environments that are too sterile. My kids are not at a risk of that however. My in-laws think I should still only give DD (almost 2) boiled water to drink. Hey, she sticks a whole handful of sand into her mouth at the playground, but at least her water is sterile . (My dad always says that ingesting 1/2kg of dirt per year is good for you - just not all at once - oh, and he's a doctor)

My DD is growing up in a non-sterile (or just plain grubby) household, she's selectively vaxed, I don't let her drink fluoridated water, I hardly ever reach for things like baby panadol, I used teething gel only once. She eats regular table foods, never baby food. She plays in the dirt and regularly with children who have a cold.
BUT, she hardly gets sick. She had runny poos a few times. But never full blown diarrhoea. She had bronchitis once when we flew from the Aussie summer into the German winter. And everybody around her was pretty sick. She seemed to handle it better than most of the adults. And once she had an episode of repeated vomiting that lasted for about 4 hours, and she's had a runny nose a few times. But that's it.
I think BFing had a lot to do with her strong immune system. But there is quite obviously a lot more to it. The problem is that nobody really knows. Not even the experts really know how the immune system works. It is all based on a little knowledghe and a lot of theory. And this is what scares me. Doctors tell us that vaccination is the ideal way to go. When really, they don't know that for sure.

I discussed each and every immunisation in detail with my father. I feel like I can trust him cause he has a similar attitude to things as I do. He never told me, what to do. Instead he gave me more info on the individual vaccines and the diseases they are meant to immunise against. Based on that, and research I had done on my own, I made up my mind. This is what every doctor should do, IMO. Rather than just repeating what the pharma companies have told them. the problem is that msot doctors don't have the time and motivation to keep up with the latest research on everything they might get asked about.

Sasa

[Schmickers]

Trillian, I completely agree with your concerns about the "one size fits all" dosing of vaccinations. I agree that it is a potential problem that some vaccinations are used in the same strengths for a two year old as they are for a four year old - those of us who have had two and four year olds will appreciate the incredible difference in size and development between those years.

With regards to the pertussis (whooping cough) outbreak, we are right in the middle of it here on the mid north coast of NSW. There are a few factors that combine to make whooping cough the most common outbreak that we see of vaccine preventable disease. The pertussis vaccine is at best 90% effective, which means that even if you immunise every single person you will always have 10% of the population who are susceptible. Immunity from the vaccine wanes over time, so you will also always have a sizeable adult population who are not immune to it. And the contagious period begins before the classic "whooping cough" cough starts - in actual fact, whooping cough starts with nothing more sinister than cold and flu-like symptoms.

The good news is that you need a significant exposure to someone else with pertussis to catch the disease - something in the order of 2-4 hours of close contact. This is why it temnds to spread within families, but not so much among the general community.

Our paediatrician advised that given that we are expecting a new baby, we ourselves, and our two girls, should be immunised against it, which was quite surprising, given that he is reasonably anti-immunisation himself. We agonised over our decision, but in the end we decided not to. We are happy to be vigilant, and we have taught our girls a lot of basic hygiene, and they know that if they start to feel sick they have to tell us and that they can't then play, kiss, etc. the other person.

As far as being a carrier of whooping cough, there really isn't any such thing - if you catch it, you either develop symptoms or you don't, but even if you don't develop symptoms, you still only remain contagious for 2-3 weeks. After that you gain immunity for anything from 10-30 years. Same with the immunisation, unless you are in the 10% that doesn't respond.