Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[Yeddi]

Yeddi is frequently mis quoted and I'm sure she would take exception to having it claimed that she supports vaccination!

Actually, Jelly Bean isn't misquoting (yay, someone took the time to read what was actually written), I did say that I would consider nasal spray vaccines as long as they didn't contain the toxic substances because I don't like deliberately sticking things like mercury, aluminium, this generations asbestos equivalent - formaldehyde, acetone (aka nail polish remover and a substance that can also be used to make chemical explosives), among other things into my or my children's body. When it's written out like that, it only solidifies to me how crazy the idea sounds. You might argue that the amounts of these substances put into vaccines are the lowest necessary to be effective, that doesn't mean they are the lowest to be safe, particularly seeing as there are no safe amounts for many of these things.

As for the science... how many years did parents say red cordial could make their kids a little crazy and the medical establishment and science said they were making ridiculous leaps. Now, amazingly enough red cordial, among other food products, have been scientifically proven to effect behaviour. How many years did parents say that giving their children cod liver oil was beneficial and again they were fobbed off. Now we're constantly being told to make sure we have our omega 3's and it's often put in as an additive here there and everywhere. For how many years did mothers say that Thalidomide was responsible for their children's birth defects or death before all the dead and mangled babies made it so they couldn't deny it anymore and it was finally taken off the market. Yes, scientific evidence is good, but it shouldn't fly in the face of basic common sense. My common sense says deliberately sticking known carcinogens and poisons in your veins and telling someone it's good for them is not common sense.

[RockinSAHD]

Actually, Jelly Bean isn't misquoting (yay, someone took the time to read what was actually written), I did say that I would consider nasal spray vaccines as long as they didn't contain the toxic substances

Why would you have someone stick something random up your childs nose!! If someone wanted to stick a sugar pill up my childs nose claiming it cured cancer I would quickly tell them where they could stick it!

1950's before the polio vaccine people thought kids would get polio if they played in the mud puddles after a rain. The cure for sunburn used to be rubbing fat into the burn. Hindsight is an amazing thing and when thalidomide was studied, yes a connection to birth defects was found but when population studies on autism and vaccines were conducted and complicated studies on biological reactions to mercury additives in vaccines.... There has still been no link found, despite what Dr Haley claims.

The jury is even still out on omega 3...

I don't want to discount anyones female parently intuition but these issues are complicated.

If your going to complain about toxic additives thats fair and I agree with you but making unfounded claims about them causing massive increases in disease and huge government conspiracies is taking things a bit far IMHO.

[Yeddi]

1950's before the polio vaccine people thought kids would get polio if they played in the mud puddles after a rain. The cure for sunburn used to be rubbing fat into the burn.

Sorry, slightly off topic - but not the best examples. Poliovirus is most commonly transferred through fecal matter. So playing in mud in open areas, in places that don't have enclosed sewage systems, where rain could create run off isn't actually that out there for those parents to believe. As for the butter, that was the recommended treatment of burns by doctors since the 1800's. Butter for burns didn't come from old wives tales, for many years the old wives tale was the one that suggested that rain water or captured snow that was melted was the best treatment (very smart of them seeing that unknown to them that this particular water as opposed to any other water would be the most free from infection causing nasties), but they were still being fobbed off right up until the 1970's because it was just water, and there was this strong belief that something more was needed.

[Inertia]

I don't want to discount anyones female parently intuition but these issues are complicated.

Sexist remarks do not help your cause either.

And that was possibly the single most pointless study you have linked yet. Well duh unvaxed children are at more risk.

How exactly does that relate to our extremely poor adult vax rate?

And this line, wth? "11% of all pertussis cases were attributed to parental vaccine refusal."

Pretty sure that is NOT how pertussis starts. Unvaccinated children do not create whooping cough out of thin air. They catch it off someone. I also assume that means that the other 89% were vaccinated? Or perhaps like in Australia, 75% of them were adults who have not had a booster!

But, ignore that it is only 8% of the population at 12 months old when mum and dad are making the decisions and about 80% of the population at 21 years old when we are making the decisions for ourselves.

Canada has 80% coverage at 12 months. They have a fraction of the Pertussis cases that we do. Their schedule also has DTaP booster at 4-6yrs and a TDaP booster at 14-16 years. Same with the US, the UK, Japan - all those countries with varies vaccine coverage rates and low cases per capita.

The answer all along was the adult population. In the 2006 census, 4.2m of the 19.8mil population were under the age of 17. Pertussis is considered worn off by 16yo. 15.6m were potentially unvaccinated. I say potentially because the idea of a booster is only very new. 2009 at best. So in 2006, taking the 8% of vaccine refusals and adding a generous amount of 20% adults for a concept that was not readily promoted, 12.8 million of the 19.8 million Australians were not adequately vaccinated against Whooping cough.

That is not herd immunity.

[Yeddi]

And that was possibly the single most pointless study you have linked yet. Well duh unvaxed children are at more risk.

He posted this for me and actually there have been numerous studies that show that unvaxed kids have the same level of infection as vaxed kids.

Sorry Rockin, but one study does not make a trend, particularly one as flawed as this one, this one has so many holes in it it's not funny. The methodology is SO dodgy. As my DH would say, it's been conducted in a way to get the result they want while appearing to do the right thing, sort of how the ban on homosexuals donating blood has now been lifted in the UK... as long as they haven't had sex for ten years, it's a way of looking to do the right thing, while making it practically impossible to have any other result than the one they want.

For instance, California have a system in place where they can have provisional whooping cough diagnosis, where people can have mild whooping cough but they don't have to actually record it as being definitively whooping cough. The study says nothing about counteracting the bias of doctors being more likely to put a vaccinated kid on the provisional list while giving an unvaccinated kid a diagnosis. And that's just the start of the flaws, but that one is a pretty big one - enough to change all the results.

[RockinSAHD]

The study says nothing about counteracting the bias of doctors being more likely to put a vaccinated kid on the provisional list while giving an unvaccinated kid a diagnosis. And that's just the start of the flaws, but that one is a pretty big one - enough to change all the results.

Thats fair enough, I thought it looked a bit dodgy but wasn't sure if you were paying attention
What about the Dr Einsteins, im sure there are plenty like him in California?

[Yeddi]

What about the Dr Einsteins, im sure there are plenty like him in California?

Your sarcasm could have had the intended result if that sentence made sense...

[willow5]

Check that, you added a book! I'd appreciate it if you could summarise a bit, I got bored and and distracted like any modern vaccine induced ADHD victim.

I've been following this thread but haven't posted. I'm by no means as well researched nor do I have on hand references. But it is good to read, and find more resources to look into. Thank you too all for contributing. Not sure how much validity I would hold for your contributions thought RSAHD seeing as you get so bored and distracted I prefer my info from more focused posters, from either side of the debate.
After your last uneducated statements about the ease of living with autism compared to being crippled by Polio, I would have thought you'd re-think your sarcastic comments rather than having a poke at ADHD sufferers as well. But maybe that's just me

As for the science... how many years did parents say red cordial could make their kids a little crazy and the medical establishment and science said they were making ridiculous leaps. Now, amazingly enough red cordial, among other food products, have been scientifically proven to effect behaviour. How many years did parents say that giving their children cod liver oil was beneficial and again they were fobbed off. Now we're constantly being told to make sure we have our omega 3's and it's often put in as an additive here there and everywhere. For how many years did mothers say that Thalidomide was responsible for their children's birth defects or death before all the dead and mangled babies made it so they couldn't deny it anymore and it was finally taken off the market. Yes, scientific evidence is good, but it shouldn't fly in the face of basic common sense. My common sense says deliberately sticking known carcinogens and poisons in your veins and telling someone it's good for them is not common sense.

Wasn't really that long ago that doctors told patients how beneficial smoking was for your health too. Actually it was only 37 years ago that my own mother was pregnant, and when she asked if she should stop smoking now that she was pregnant, her doctor told her no. With the reasoning being it could be stressful and that the stress would do more damage than the smoking. So the medical profession have been known to be wrong in the past, and on quite a large scale too. Because I'm pretty sure smoking is now not recommended by doctors and actually discouraged.

There is actually an old poster up in my DPs doctors surgery saying "9 out of 10 doctors recommend Camel" complete with picture of a doctor in his white coat having a smoke!

[RockinSAHD]

Sorry Inertia, that does sound sexist doesn't it! Let me explain.

I understand as a parent that mothers know their babies best, no question!

The best thing for a mother to do is not get her baby vaccinated. Theres no hib right? No Measles around? And the vaccines are full of sh*t anyway right? Thats why we have history books, population studies, thats why we have epidemiology, to help us make decisions that are more complicated than what we see with our eyes in our community.

I trust my DW's intuition, she's a smart woman in touch with her inner mother. She's been in hospitals for a decade, worked in remote communities, third world kids hospitals. I trusted her when she made an informed decision to vaccinate our kids. Different people make different decisions but we make decisions as a community, society, country, world.

As you may have noticed there are just a few opinions floating around the heads of the women in this forum, strong opinions! Especially on children!!!!


Also Inertia, I appreciate your stats as always but was the study from the US, where they have high coverage rates? Theres always a few cases floating around a community, people travel etc, until the disease is pretty much wiped out like smallpox and if you believe the study unvaccinated people are more at risk.

I've been following this thread but haven't posted. I'm by no means as well researched nor do I have on hand references. But it is good to read, and find more resources to look into. Thank you too all for contributing. Not sure how much validity I would hold for your contributions thought RSAHD seeing as you get so bored and distracted I prefer my info from more focused posters, from either side of the debate.

I'm focussed up to about 3000 words then I give up, did anyone else really read all of jellybeans cut and pasted info?
If you understand the info Jellybean, and its important enough for yours and our time, you might summarise it for us?