Melb baby dies of whooping cough...

[Honeybee]

Apparently the baby was 'newborn'. S/he would have caught it from someone close to him or her. I am quite concerned about this, my baby will be born in winter, and I will at least be checking that DH's and my boosters are up to date, and I will ask my parents and sister to do the same. I wish I could ask everyone who will be in contact with my baby to be vaccianted. Sure, vaccination isn't 100% effective, but it does provide a great deal of protection and I think it's reasonable to take steps to protect the health of my new and vulnerable baby. Of course some companies and people make a lot of money out of vaccines, but people make a lot of money out of drugs that treat cancer, diabetes whatever. That doesn't mean that it's all propaganda and totally flawed. Vaccination is extremely important for public health, everybody benefits from it and I consider it a public duty to the rest of the community that my family is vaccinated. It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

[BellyBelly]

Why would it make you angry, if your baby is vax'd then it wouldnt get it? Unless its some of the recent whooping cough vaccines (lets throw chicken pox in there too because thats happening also), where vaccinated people are getting it because its lost effectiveness. The anger should not be directed at those who have made their own informed choice, like you have. Each to their own. Get angry at the vaccine companies for not making them better/safer, and making loads of money from it. Its about money to them. For parents, they think about their children's health. I know loads of unvax'd kids who are very healthy.

[Honeybee]

Well, I will vaccinate but can't give my baby the whooping cough vaccine until s/he's older. I don't want to defend pharaceutical companies, clearly they need to develop more effective vaccines and keep up with changing diseases - and I'm sure they're trying because they will make more money from a vaccine that's more effective. I know there are diseases that are beating vaccines at the moment, my niece was vaccinated against chicken pox and she still caught it this year from a kid from overseas. Then she exposed us to it as well. DS didn't catch it, presumably because he has been vaccinated and it did protect him in this instance. But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Anyway, I think what I'm really angry about is when sick people who know they have something come near me or my family. The number of times DH's family members have come over, kissed me and then revealed later on that they have some kind of illness astonishes me. That's nothing to do with vaccination, but it's irresponsible and inconsiderate. How do you tell people it's not appropriate to visit a newborn baby when they're sick? Everyone should know that and not need to be told. Sorry, a bit OTT but it's on my mind this morning after reading about that poor baby in the news.

[Yeddi]

But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight but I don't understand the logic that says that the herd immunity for chicken pox can have come from the vaccine (which is an unproven theory) but not from the heard immunity that has been built up from the unvaxed generation that did catch the disease (which is a proven theory). How does that work?

Our whole family except one caught whooping cough, despite being vaccinated in 2005, four months ago, the only one not to catch it was my 8 week old UNvaccinated son. We caught it from a family of 12 from playgroup, where one of the older kids had caught it from a vaccinated kid at school whose parents sent him to school even though they KNEW he was sick because they didn't want to take time off work. Ten in that family are vaccinated, two are not. Guess which two didn't catch it? The youngest two who weren't vaccinated. Trust vaccination if you like, but when I put this on top of the fact my husband caught typhoid from the typhoid vaccination, I wouldn't go near the things and would happily go to jail and hide my children underground to stop him from being vaccinated. It is not just you that gets angry about the vaccination debate. It is an emotive topic both ways and the suggestion that because other people believe in it I should subject my child to it makes me furious. People should be free to make choices for themselves regarding their own autonomy, it is a basic human right.

But there is one thing I agree with you absolutely, and that is it also makes me furious when people don't quarantine themselves or their kids when they are sick. If the parents of the kid who had whooping cough first had kept him at home, none of us might have caught it. There is no murky water there. That is a true risk of someone else's health, and even their own. Stay at home and get well.

[sunshine_sieben]

My heart goes out to this family and all others who have lost a child. No parent should outlive their child.

I know there are diseases that are beating vaccines at the moment, my niece was vaccinated against chicken pox and she still caught it this year from a kid from overseas. Then she exposed us to it as well. DS didn't catch it, presumably because he has been vaccinated and it did protect him in this instance. But doctors hardly ever see chicken pox now, when I was a child everyone expected to have it. So vaccines clearly do protect a huge number of people.

Doctors hardly ever see chickenpox... because you usually don't need to go to the doctor when you have chickenpox. My kids both had it. It didn't even occur to me to go to the doc unless there were complications - what for?

If anything - and I have discussed this with some European doctors at length - herd immunity might be WEAKENED in the long run with the chickenpox vax. This is why: when we were little most kids got chickenpox and developed natural LIFE-LONG immunity. These days, most kids get vaccinated which will wear off eventually. It is a fact that adults are pretty slack with getting boosters. So these vaccinated kids are quite likely to get chickenpox as adults, when it is a much worse disease. They might get it when pregnant or pass it on to newborns, too young to have been vaccinated. Or get it when they are older and immune suppressed.

While I am glad we got the chickenpox thing over and done with, I have seen firsthand that it is NOT true that vaccinated children get a milder form. My friends 2 boys and some of the other kids at kindy who caught it from them, had much more severe cases than mine (both not vaxed for CP). My 3yo only had one night where she was uncomfortable and took a pinetarsol bath. I gave her daily oatmeal baths for a few days, but that just cause I felt I should be doing something. She was her normal, energetic self. My son, who was just over 1 at the time had a few pustules but they seemed neither itchy nor did he have a temperature or anything. He slept well, ate well and if it hadn't been for the spots, I would have sworn he didn't have CP.

Also, my friend thought nothing of taking her (vaxed) younger son to kindy when her (also vaxed) older son had contracted CP at school. This is how CP got introduced into DD's kindy and it spread like wildfire within this mostly vaxed community. I on the other hand knew DD would be likely getting it from my friend's son, so I quarantined her before she was even symptomatic and then I quarantined DS before he showed symptoms (CP is the most infectious the from a couple of days before spots appear. So no-one could have caught it from us). Yes, it was soooo frustrating, essentially being stuck at home for a month. And it wouldn't be easy to do that when you have to work.
So, in my opinion, it is the NEED to send our children to daycare/school so that we can go to work that has to carry some of the blame for the rapid spread of diseases like this. Please know, I am not judging working mums or blaming them. But it is understandable that it is much harder to isolate a child on a mere suspicion when you have to try and keep a job.

I do agree with your anger towards people who come to see a newborn while knowingly sick. I don't understand that, that is just careless. I am in mo way someone to ask for virtual "sterility" around small children. But people have to use some common sense.

Sasa

I should ad: I am a partial vaxer. My kids have most of the common vaccines. But I decided against CP and I delayed HepB.

[Freya]

So sad

I choose to vaccinate my kids, I feel if it affords them the difference between illness or death then its worth the risk. So far we've been exposed to whooping cough, measles, chicken pox and mumps with none of us catching any of them. I guess we are lucky.

My GP actually told me when I had my WC booster last year that its ADULTS spreading the disease. Theyve noticed alot of adults in their 50's and older who are suddenly catching the disease even though they were vaccinated as children and realised that the vaccination must have worn off; allowing them to catch and spread the disease. Alot of these people are probably grandparents and have no idea theyre at risk of spreading the disease to children. Which is why they have now started the campaign for booster shots for all those adults who come into contact with kids on a regular basis.

I wonder how many people would think to just wander into their GPs office and have their immunity tested. I had it done for my nursing degree and have amazing immunity for everything from varicella to Hep B and C. I had to have no boosters whatsoever. I was vaccinated as per the schedule 26 years ago and caught chicken pox naturally at age 6. My sister just had to be tested in order to work in a healthcare setting as a social worker and she had to have boosters of Hep B, MMR and something else because her immunity was low enough to put her at high risk of contracting and spreading any of those diseases. So it proves the theory that different people get different immunity from the vaccines; we were both vaccinated the same yet I have the higher immunity.

[Inertia]

So it proves the theory that different people get different immunity from the vaccines; we were both vaccinated the same yet I have the higher immunity.

Thats actually very interesting because I experienced something similar.

In fairness, my sister is 2 years older than me, however. We both got Rubella as children, but only she got the High School Booster (I was moving from one school to another and the one I was at had not yet done it, and the one I moved to did it at the beginning of the year, so I was missed). So my only exposure to Rubella was back in the early 80s as a vax. She got needles as a child, Measles as a child and the high school booster.

In 2006, her pg bloods showed no immunity.
In 2009 mine still read 26. So dropping but still there almost 30 years later.

It is obviously not her fault her immunity to it isn't awesome. Ironically, she was also the only one of us to ever catch chicken pox. None of us were immunised, but all my kids have had it. I just never get it.

Certainly with all this we cannot continue to blame anti-vaxxers for these very very unfortunate losses.

[entreat]

It is a fact that adults are pretty slack with getting boosters.

I think most adults don't realise they need boosters. Vaccinations don't last forever, unfortunately.
I read on a poster in my Paed's office that something like 70% of infant WC cases are caught from their mother. I know how guilty I would feel if I gave my baby WC!

[entreat]

, if your baby is vax'd then it wouldnt get it?

I'm not sure why you would assume that vaccinated people don't ever get the disease. I was vaccinated & I got whooping cough as a child. But unlike the unvaccinated kids in my class, I didn't get admitted into hospital. That's a really peculiar thing to assume as a Dr would never advocate that. It reduces the impact of the disease on the body as the body is primed to fight it better - it's not a force shield. I'm not sure why there is a misconception that, for a single person, to be vaccinated makes you 100% immune to the things you're being vaccinated against.

I'm also not sure why the article was claimed to be propaganda (except that it's in the Herald Sun!!). What if the family would like to spread the word about vaccinating because it might have saved their child? Isn't popular media a good choice to get the word out to lots of people? Pro-breastfeeding articles are in news papers (and magazines) more & mroe frequently. does that mean the ABA are scare-mongering? No, of course not! It's an effective way to get a message out to many people (1.3 million for the HS).

[Yeddi]

The definition of Propaganda - Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position.
As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. "

The article didn't provide both sides, but is one sided and biased. It completely ignores ALL the studies that shows there is absolutely no clustering of outbreaks amongst the unvaccinated, yet blames the unvaccinated for spreading the disease. It ignores the fact that vaccination for some reason does not effect infection rates with a whopping 85% of whooping cough cases occuring in the fully vaccinated, and the bulk of the 15% unvaccinated are under the age of vaccination or elderly who are always the most vulnerable because of their immature immunes systems (which would be the case vaccinated or not). The article doesn't touch on the fact that vaccination can be ineffective, it doesn't touch on the side effects, but touts plenty of assumed and untested theory as fact, especially the holy grail of untested theories "heard immunity". Aka propaganda. Ethical news is meant to present binary facts, not push an agenda, otherwise it's not news anymore.

[nothing2lose]

The article didn't provide both sides, but is one sided and biased.

That's the Feral Scum for you....errrrr...I mean, the Herald Sun...

[entreat]

Yeah, what N2L said - it's the Herald Sun!! They have never published anything impartially.

So these 'absolutely no clusting of outbreaks' - how does that reconcile with polio rates in third world countries compared to polio rates in Australia?

[Yeddi]

Yeah, what N2L said - it's the Herald Sun!! They have never published anything impartially.

So these 'absolutely no clusting of outbreaks' - how does that reconcile with polio rates in third world countries compared to polio rates in Australia?

I said, "No clustering of outbreaks amongst the unvaccinated". This doesn't mean there isn't disease clusters (or areas/times where it is more prevalent) within general populations but that there isn't a higher ratio of infection amongst the unvaccinated as compared to the vaccinated within those populations. So say there was an outbreak in a population that had a 90% vaccination rate, logically you would think that a higher proportion of the 10% (i.e 70% of that 10%) of unvaccinated would catch the disease and less of the 90% (i.e. 30% of that 90%) would catch it, but this isn't the case. Clusters are actually occurring in the vaccinated not the unvaccinated... that should be concerning, but instead of investigating it, we get the "vaccines will mean you just get a milder case" which isn't always true either. A-typical measles (which only occurs in the vaccinated) is far more deadly than the original because instead of the pustules coming out on the skin, they occur on internal organs, and because it's not visible the same there can be a huge delay in receiving treatment.

Polio rates in third world countries are quite easy to reconcile, seeing they have a lack of resources/hygiene and nutritional issues (water/food/sanitation) and still, in general, use the OPV live polio vaccine. The reason IPV is used in Western countries is because we know that the OPV can actually give people polio.

[Shanti]

It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

I can understand where you are coming from, I myself am not totally anti vax but I'm not pro-vax either.... I'm selective with what my DD gets. And I have every right to be..... there is so much garbage that gets put into these vaccinations.
And who's to say your children won't get sick just because they've had the needles? They can still get it.

This story is so sad that poor little baby and family. I cannot imagine.

[Cocolove]

It makes me angry that other people in the community don't vaccinate, thereby putting my health, my children's health and my immune suppressed father's health at risk.

I agree! Because Vaccinating your child doesnt mean they are completly 100% coverd from getting it, they may just get it to a lesser degree which can still be fatal or damaging, if everyone vaccinated their children we could kill these diseases off surely!!