Scientific Link to Autism Identified

[Mummato2]

Throughout this thread I have seen one thing in common with all you ladies, either you choose to vaccinate or not, the fact is you are trying to prevent you children from suffering.

I am not a scientist, nor someone who has been personally affected by autism but I am a mother and being a monther I would never ever ever wish the slightest wound on my DD, let alone life long suffering.

You know - that just summed it up beautifully.

I won't lie - the decision not to vaccinate my children is something that I live with every day and I have to ask myself what I would do if something happened to my children if I don't vaccinate and what would happen if I willingly took them to get vaccinated and they had an adverse reaction.

Bottom line is I made the decision that I wasn't 100% comfortable with - but more comfortable then the other alternative.....iykwim?

I just want what's best for my babies. Cooper was a 4.5 year "try" and we then went onto have 4 losses before being blessed with my daughter. I will do anything to protect them and stop them coming into harms way - and the best way I can do that is by taking chances with nature (natural Chicken Pox, Measles, Rubella, Mumps etc)

Someone else asked what the statistic was for a childhood disease to turn bad - well it's around a 1 in 300 000 (averaged out across the disease and is variable so that's a rough stat).......risk of vaccine reaction/injury/side effect is around 1 in 5 depending on the vaccine. I have to ask myself if there's a 1 in 5 reaction stat - what else is happening under the surface that I can't see?.....I know where I'd rather take my risk.

Anyway, whether the choice is to vax or not, three things are clear for me. 1) The group of parents that aren't vaccinating are in turn making medical science sit up and find out why, therefore forcing them to continue to research and evolve the technology. 2) The group who vaccinate are doing what they think is best for their children and that is all that can be asked 3) As parents no matter what choice you make, it's heart wrenching and no one has the right to attack another parent's choice

[Inanna]

Mumma2two you have said it with such eloquence & you mirror my own feelings also.

Imogen was born after losing 6 babies. She was born at 27+5 weeks & it is a miracle that she is asleep on my bed right now. I would do nothing to risk her health or wellbeing. From my research, education, experience and gut instinct the risk to immunise her outweighed the risk of her contracting the illness.

FWIW apart from DD14 my children haven't had a vaccine in their bodies. Not one of them has had Measles, rubella, mumps, chiclen pox, tetanus... None - whilst so many of their vaccinated friends have! It stuns me.. Overwhelmingly at the school they attend the children are largely unimmunised. There have been in the 5 years my kids have been at the school the odd outbreak of measles and chicken pox... However, it was contained to a few kids...
However, down the road at the state school where they have a higher immunisation rate the school came close to closing down for a time due to a measles "epidemic"...

It interests me why this is so? Why the unimunised are seemingly not as affected as the immunised.. Could it be that their immune systems have been damaged by the onslaught of ingredients in the vaccines they received? Could it be that some of us have "sturdier" immune systems than others (of course they do!) and therefore have less resilience???

[Mummato2]

It interests me why this is so? Why the unimunised are seemingly not as affected as the immunised.. Could it be that their immune systems have been damaged by the onslaught of ingredients in the vaccines they received? Could it be that some of us have "sturdier" immune systems than others (of course they do!) and therefore have less resilience???

Ok I'm going to preface this with "I have a theory and I am no scientist"

I think that when you introduce a vaccination into a child's system you are triggering the bodies internal memory to remember that particular disease. If the child comes into contact with the disease they were vaccinated against, the body essentially recognises it and has a weakened ability to fight it (severity level? - not sure I guess it'll depend on the child)

But I think that when a foreign particle comes into the body that the immune system has never ever met, the immune system thinks "don't know you - FIGHT" and kids just have a better way of dealing with it before they get to the infection stage......

See this is why it floors me that some people just have a natural immunity to certain things.

Like I said, this is by no way scientific - just a thought from my own uneducated mind

ETA - I am so so sorry to hear of your losses. They are devastating - but after going through that, don't you just look at your baby and think "wow I did it". What a blessed little angel to have a mumma like you xxx

[~Saram~]

Wow this thread really has taken some twisty turns in the past few days!

I too am a scientist, I have a degree in applied science majoring in biotechnology and microbiology. I was begining my masters in genetic therapies when I fell pregnant with DS. I am now a teacher and almost have my masters in education so I would not consider myself in ill-educated person. I do believe I have the skills to critically analyse information in particular papers which claim to be scienfitically valid. However I am also a mum who in the past 7 years has learnt that my instincts have provided me with just as much as my brain. I also believe strongly in the ancedotal evidence as it is just that - evidence! As a previous poster has said, scientific enquiry is driven by a suspecion that something is going on.

On a personal level, not a day goes by when I don't agonise over my decision to not vaccinate my DD. Last time there was a measles outbreak my gut churned everytime we went out of the house. I accept that my decision places my daughter at risk of catching communicable diseases and their is not a family out there who chooses not to immunise (as opposed to those who just don't) that doesn't know that the risk exists. Having said that, in the case of mealses, mumps and rubella (as this was the vaccination originally discussed) the risk that my child will develope one of these diseases (two of which I survived quite fine - after being immunised twice) and may be the 1 in 100 000 or 500 000 that developes a fatal or life altering consequence of this disease is a much more distant risk than the risk of watching her - my beautiful, communicative, expressive, hugs me at night, makes facial expressions, knows how to play with toys, takes my face in her hands and says "love you mummy" almost three year old disappear into the same world where my gorgeous son lives is a much bigger risk.

Do I think others should vaccinate? thankfully that is not my decision to make. I do know that 7 years ago based on the information I had I choose to vaccinate my son and was very happy with my decision. Do I think vac caused his autism - no! Xander was different from the womb, did they aggrevate the situation - HELL yes! The month proceeding his 4y shots still give me nightmares. He kicked and punched me, rocked, flapped, tried to scratch the vaccine out of his arm, screamed and screamed and screamed - for over 4wks! it was after that that we agreed to go and see a Dr as things were out of control. Xander was different from birth but he has never again been the boy he was before the vaccinations. Occassionaly we get glimpses where, although he is still engrossed in his own discussion, he is looking at me, speaking clearly - participating in a conversation, but mainly he is locked in his own world talking endlessly about digimon or pokemon. He is agitated by change and he is overwhelmed by sensory info - you might find him rocking in the supermarket trolly playing his DS, or madly running in circles in the backyard, or jumping endlessly on the tramp. He is updet as he gets in trouble at school for calling out and talking to loudly. He has no friends becasue he doesn't understand personal space, hugs too tight, licks things and doesn't understand the rules of the games. He gets kicked and beaten up at school because when he couldn't find a chair he didn't know what to do. He bangs his head and tells me he hates himself because he can't stop and he doesn't want to be bad. And I have nothing to offer him, to make him better. Give me chicken pox any day

[Mummato2]

Wow this thread really has taken some twisty turns in the past few days!

I too am a scientist, I have a degree in applied science majoring in biotechnology and microbiology. I was begining my masters in genetic therapies when I fell pregnant with DS. I am now a teacher and almost have my masters in education so I would not consider myself in ill-educated person. I do believe I have the skills to critically analyse information in particular papers which claim to be scienfitically valid. However I am also a mum who in the past 7 years has learnt that my instincts have provided me with just as much as my brain. I also believe strongly in the ancedotal evidence as it is just that - evidence! As a previous poster has said, scientific enquiry is driven by a suspecion that something is going on.

On a personal level, not a day goes by when I don't agonise over my decision to not vaccinate my DD. Last time there was a measles outbreak my gut churned everytime we went out of the house. I accept that my decision places my daughter at risk of catching communicable diseases and their is not a family out there who chooses not to immunise (as opposed to those who just don't) that doesn't know that the risk exists. Having said that, in the case of mealses, mumps and rubella (as this was the vaccination originally discussed) the risk that my child will develope one of these diseases (two of which I survived quite fine - after being immunised twice) and may be the 1 in 100 000 or 500 000 that developes a fatal or life altering consequence of this disease is a much more distant risk than the risk of watching her - my beautiful, communicative, expressive, hugs me at night, makes facial expressions, knows how to play with toys, takes my face in her hands and says "love you mummy" almost three year old disappear into the same world where my gorgeous son lives is a much bigger risk.

Do I think others should vaccinate? thankfully that is not my decision to make. I do know that 7 years ago based on the information I had I choose to vaccinate my son and was very happy with my decision. Do I think vac caused his autism - no! Xander was different from the womb, did they aggrevate the situation - HELL yes! The month proceeding his 4y shots still give me nightmares. He kicked and punched me, rocked, flapped, tried to scratch the vaccine out of his arm, screamed and screamed and screamed - for over 4wks! it was after that that we agreed to go and see a Dr as things were out of control. Xander was different from birth but he has never again been the boy he was before the vaccinations. Occassionaly we get glimpses where, although he is still engrossed in his own discussion, he is looking at me, speaking clearly - participating in a conversation, but mainly he is locked in his own world talking endlessly about digimon or pokemon. He is agitated by change and he is overwhelmed by sensory info - you might find him rocking in the supermarket trolly playing his DS, or madly running in circles in the backyard, or jumping endlessly on the tramp. He is updet as he gets in trouble at school for calling out and talking to loudly. He has no friends becasue he doesn't understand personal space, hugs too tight, licks things and doesn't understand the rules of the games. He gets kicked and beaten up at school because when he couldn't find a chair he didn't know what to do. He bangs his head and tells me he hates himself because he can't stop and he doesn't want to be bad. And I have nothing to offer him, to make him better. Give me chicken pox any day

Thank you SO MUCH for sharing this experience. I am so so sorry that your beautiful boy lives with a life of frustration and pain

[maz]

Sarah hon.... Im sitting here crying cause what you described sounds exactly like W. He was different from to time he was in my warm belly. I use to comment to Jed and my family that I felt like something wasnt right

The other thing people dont consider with it is that we become our childrens voices...we take on 2 lives and in the process come across as aggressive, intimidating and negetive when really we are distraight, worn out from worry and stress and saddened that people dont see the child that we do. I'll second having chicken pox to then.

Jed and I have been talking about this today...and we are going to go through our notes and see were the distructive phases were in his life to date and if they add up with when he recieved his immunisations.

Why do we all have to live so far away from each other at times like this

[Inanna]

Sarah thankyou darling woman for sharing Zanders story... It is similar to my experience with Ruby - though she has not got autisim she is aspy. I wonder if this is due sometimes to the fact that I delayed her immunisations... I immunised her as I felt it was my "community" responsibility - now with my other children my responsibility first rests with them.

I am glad you clarified for those who do not already know how you are the antithesis of ill informed.
Life experience, gut instinct and colloquial evidence plays a big part in the decisions we make...

[~Saram~]

I think I have cried more tears over the 2 autism thread on here in the past few days than I ever have on BB. The amazing mamas out there with special kids who are doing our best and fighting the only way we can and the amazing other people out there who are just as passionate about doing the best for their kids however they see that to be.

Maz - wow on your discovery! I wish I could remeber more of Xan's early babyhood but I have seriously blocked it all out LOL. And we are going to get to catch up one day and let our super kids meet too!

[christy]

I think the thing that this thread has brought out of me, as a parent of an autistic child, is how misunderstood it really is. How easy it is to say in theory that there is no link, but how hard as a parent who can see the link. I think my sorrow is that other people find it easy to debate such a heavy topic passionately, without reserving judgement on other parents, without knowing the circumstances of those families.

No, I do not believe that vaccinating Matilda caused her Autism. She was noticably different from 10 days old, but YES it definately contributed to her development and her place on the spectrum.

[Cassius2]

I think that this is an interesting point that has been made by Sarah (and also raised by other mummas with bubs on the spectrum), that although their bubbas showed signs of 'difference' that post vaccination there was a shift.

I find this interesting as I have a MIL who is a paediatrician (and specialises in Aspergers/Autism) and a good friend who is a childhood psychologist and on separate occasions (MIL is in italy so obviously lol) they both mentioned that they can recognise quite dramatic shifts in children post vaccination. so where they were able to reach a child before and make relations, it was almost as though they had to go back to the beginning, if not start afresh in a new way (i hope this makes sense...as a person who doesnt have a child with autism i cannot fully identify with the subtleties of their language usage in relation to the condition...and i certainly do not intend any offense!).

So what could it be? coincidence? trigger? is there any research (that isnt going to be sent packing to hell by the AMA etc) that is being done independently of vested interests?

And also, what are Wakefields vested interests? to be a troublemaker and poo-stirrer only?

As one poster mentioned (i think Tenar??), the link with tobacco smoking and lung cancer was made back in 1930s Nazi Germany...it wasnt until the dawn of the 60s that people started taking notice (mostly in terms of advertising consequences lol). that's a long time between drinks.

asking questions and demanding better products and information should be our right and that is all i ask.

[sas85]

But you are trying to prevent Measles, mumps rubella, chicken pox etc etc etc...
As Maz said earlier in a PP Autism is life long, there is no cure and it wont go away.
Chicken pox, i had that as a kid, 2 weeks of scratching and not feeling so well, rubella the same... all cause a bit of suffering SHORT TERM, but i have no long term consequences from catching these illnesses.

So, i am wondering WHY would you want to protect against short term suffering, yet risk long term struggles with a child on the spectrum???

I understand this reasoning and would agree with you particularly when it comes to children catching the disease (excluding measles which I would be so terrified of if my child caught it) - but some of these diseases can be so much more damaging if caught after puberty or God forbid when pregnant. Ie- my older brother was sooo sick with chicken pox, whereasI just itched and scarred. I believe Mumps used to cause big problems with sterility in post-pubescent boys when it was prevalant prior to vax.

15 Years ago I caught Rubella from an outbreak at primary school (noone was vaxed till year 7 then)- I turned marone, I got the flu and aches that was it no worries I was 10 - I passed it to my Father who was as healthy as a man can be, in his early 40's caught Rubella it COMPLETELY wiped his immune system to the point that within a week he contracted glandular fever and double pneumonia and came so close to dying in intensive care I shudder to remember him lying there unable to talk or move because he couldn't breathe. What would his death certificate have said - It would have said death caused by respiratory failure due to double pneumonia not death due to Rubella - but that's what wiped his immune system and caused the problem KWIM. As for my Dad well he hasn't been able to work since, he now has a chronic form of hepatitis, major issues with the muscles around his chest and post-viral chronic fatigue syndrome.

So I suppose my point is - there are a lot more reactions out there than would be recorded because sometimes it's the cascade reaction that gets noted, or the end result, not necessarily the first domino. I understand and respect people who choose not to vaccinate based on possible reactions - but NEVER underestimate what a 'minor' disease can do to a persons life.

[Sammiejane]

Totally get your point Sarah about adults contracting illness's, but i am not making the life long decision for Mj when i choose not to vaccinate her. Just the decision now, when her immune system is young and there are many question marks that i cannot ignore.

When i did my nursing training, we were offered all the vac's and i made the decision as an adult to have them as my risk was higher - also i had a developed immune system.

When MJ is at an age that she is considering children (in the case of rubella as you mentioned it) SHE will have the choice to receive the vacs...