Why not vaccinate?

[Just Me]

LR - I could be wrong ... so anybody who knows more please feel free to correct me (I won't be offended ) ... but I thought the whooping cough outbreak wasn't to do with kids not being immunised - more to do with adults believing that they were immune because they had the vax as kids. Recent studies have shown the vaccine is not effective all through adulthood and needs to be repeated in adults in order for them to be covered. This is not solid fact, I read it somewhere and I thought that is why they are trying to encourage adults to be vaccinated again. DH and I got the free vaccine after DD2 was born and have encouraged all our family to fork out the $40 and go and be vaccinated.

Saram - Was there a measles outbreak here? Glad I missed out on that one! I didn't even know! I know that we had one of the largest outbreaks of swine flu in the country. I got it while I was pg and so did DH and the kids. We didn't go anywhere for weeks because I didn't want to be exposed to it. I went for a clinic checkup at the hospital and got it from someone in the waiting room. Ironically on the same appointment the ob told me not to go anywhere if I could help it because I was particularly at risk of contracting it.

We have had a horrible season for catching EVERYTHING going around and have literally been sick every second week with something new. Everytime we have gotten sick I can point to someone who was at the one social occassion that we managed to make it to between illnesses, that had exactly the same symptoms. I really don't get why people take their sick kids out - especially around other kids! For families with only one kid, it might not be that bad, but by the time all my kids get it and recover, it can be 3 weeks of us not going anywhere. It has been a very lonely 7 months and probably could be avoided if people are socially responsible and STAY HOME when they are sick!

Sorry - just a bit off the topic!

[~mamaspice~]

LR - I could be wrong ... so anybody who knows more please feel free to correct me (I won't be offended ) ... but I thought the whooping cough outbreak wasn't to do with kids not being immunised - more to do with adults believing that they were immune because they had the vax as kids. Recent studies have shown the vaccine is not effective all through adulthood and needs to be repeated in adults in order for them to be covered. This is not solid fact, I read it somewhere and I thought that is why they are trying to encourage adults to be vaccinated again. DH and I got the free vaccine after DD2 was born and have encouraged all our family to fork out the $40 and go and be vaccinated.

Saram - Was there a measles outbreak here? Glad I missed out on that one! I didn't even know! I know that we had one of the largest outbreaks of swine flu in the country. I got it while I was pg and so did DH and the kids. We didn't go anywhere for weeks because I didn't want to be exposed to it. I went for a clinic checkup at the hospital and got it from someone in the waiting room. Ironically on the same appointment the ob told me not to go anywhere if I could help it because I was particularly at risk of contracting it.

We have had a horrible season for catching EVERYTHING going around and have literally been sick every second week with something new. Everytime we have gotten sick I can point to someone who was at the one social occassion that we managed to make it to between illnesses, that had exactly the same symptoms. I really don't get why people take their sick kids out - especially around other kids! For families with only one kid, it might not be that bad, but by the time all my kids get it and recover, it can be 3 weeks of us not going anywhere. It has been a very lonely 7 months and probably could be avoided if people are socially responsible and STAY HOME when they are sick!

Sorry - just a bit off the topic!

JustMe, I've read that the whooping cough Vax doesnt guarantee immunity after 5 years so if a person wanted to make sure they stayed immune they'd have to get revaccinated or have a BT to check their immunology status. Thats prob why the Govt. is promoting new parents being revaccinated because even if they were vacinated previously as a child it could not be ineffective

[Inanna]

I am so sorry about your friends little one Mara... I don't know what to say but that it is hideous.

Saram: I don't get the banana thing - it all seemed fairly random to me but I think I am not quite as bright as I thought I was so I will concede some things just don't compute with me!

That's right they won't do a titre as it's not cost effective and it means two needle stab s instead of one in most cases...

[Lulu]

Oh Mara - gawd I'm an insensitive dork. I am very sorry about your friends baby, I really apologise I was completely in clinical/information mode - but that is no excuse.
That should never ever have happenend, what a tragic thing to happen

[Epacris]

Yes, I am fully aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective, I thought it was more like 95-99% not 60%. In any case, even if it's the upper range of effectivness, if there is a disease outbreak I am fully aware that my children may have no other protection other than herd immunity. And that is why I keep banging on about it. If vaccination rates drop below a certain level, herd immunity won't work. Those in our community that can't be safely vaccinated (unborn and newborn children and the immuno-compromised) AND anyone who has been vaccinated but for whom it hasn't worked, rely on herd immunity as their only means of protection.

I used to work in a job that I wouldn't say was high risk but there was a risk. For me, on balance, I chose to be vaccinated against the diseases that I could possibly come into contact with. Before I was vaccinated I had a blood test to determine my level of immunity, to see if a booster was required. And I had my boosters and blood checks accordingly. I hadn't thought of getting my children's blood checked though? I might ask their GP next time I see him what that would involve? So yes, I am also fully aware that vaccination, even if it is successful can wear off.

And this thing about dragging sick kids around all over the place, I have never, ever heard of people who vaccinate thinking that that's OK... because they've been vaccinated? Sick kids are sick kids FULL STOP. You just don't do that. DH's grandmother has been in hospital after having a stroke for a month now and she is desperate to see the children, it would be better than any tonic or exercise they could ever give her in hospital. But I haven't been able to take them for a visit because they've just not been quite right, you know, bit of a runny nose, bit of conjunctivitis. But no way would I risk it! The fact that they are vaccinated never even entered my mind, that's completely irrelevant in any circumstance such as this.

The whooping cough epidemic has been the worst in the Northern Rivers region of NSW which has a vaccination rate of about 80%. Perhaps this rate is too low to be providing herd immunity? I don't know Dana McCaffery (a four week old baby, too young to be vaccinated) that died of Whooping Cough was from there.

And I just want to double check that everyone understands my tone, because I haven't used many emoticons, because I couldn't really find any that I thought were right. I'm just talking completely normally, I'm not shouting, or anxious, or exasperated or anything. I'm just having a completely normal conversation.

Time for a smiley, or two.

[Kamarine]

Been lurking mostly in this thread - but have a question.
Do vaccination rates include booster shots? (If it's been asked - I apologise, I must have missed it.)
I know they keep track of childhood immunisations but if the rates for zones are based on that alone - then with something like pertussis would be inaccurate. Most people I know are unaware that the pertussis vaccination requires a booster shot - and even I only found out recently.

[~Saram~]

And I just want to double check that everyone understands my tone, because I haven't used many emoticons, because I couldn't really find any that I thought were right. I'm just talking completely normally, I'm not shouting, or anxious, or exasperated or anything. I'm just having a completely normal conversation.

Inanna - yep the whole banana thing has me totally confused too - which is why it's bugging me I hate stats like that that I can't work out if they are for real or not

Mara - hug to your friend - that is a terrible thing to have happen.

As for the pertussis outbreak - is it a different strain to the pertussis vaccinated against??? I am a little erked as we just got back from Dr as DD has a chest infection and dr has put us on the meds for whooping cough - JIC so she doesn't get that while fighting off this other but he went on to say that we need to be especially careful with her due to the weakness in her lungs etc as she wasn't fully vac ... funny thing is... we made sure she got the dip, tet and whooping cough ones - as I felt these ones we were at more risk of with her lungs and where we live and I checked the schedule tonight and yup she isn't due for a booster until 4 so... wouldn't that make her as fully immunised as a 2 yo could be??? - grr at him for making me feel bad and paranoid for no bloody reason!

[Lulu]

Small leaved shrub friend - I suppose you can look at some of the past threads (probably Boo Hoo!) to see that some people just don't get sickness.

Mayaness is a perfect example (and I don't think she will mind me using her as an example ) people insistent on attending an event whilst sick and poo pooing her about it. What happens? Well as far as I know poor Maya and her newborn bubs were really yucky sick. for the first 3 or so weeks this baby was ill when she didn't need to be.

I'm not even going to assume everyone that vacc's thinks all is well, it's just been my experience over the years. Especially when I end up in an RL bunfight with people about my non vacc status. I've heard it so many times before - my child vacc'd = don't have to worry. Just my experience though, and these are the people I tend to be around - blueergh!

xoxo

[Inanna]

I've had that too Lulu...

This whole vax thread has seeped my energy - so I hope some helpful info has come out of it for some!
It's a big big topic & one that I am glad can be discussed in here kindly.

[Epacris]

I've heard it so many times before - my child vacc'd = don't have to worry. Just my experience though, and these are the people I tend to be around - blueergh!

Really? Of course I have encountered the blase attitude "ahh, my kids aren't sick" when they clearly are. But honestly never, ever the “yeah my kids are vaccinated so they're alright" when they clearly are not. Well as a vaxer, I think that's just bloody crap!

Yeah big one hey. Oh well, hopefully it'll be nice and quiet over chrissy and the new year so we can all realxxx to the maxxxx

[suse]

A few people have mentioned the importance of keeping sick people at home - which I am not disputing by any means (and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, believe that more should be in place to counteract the prevailing 'if you can stand you can work' ethos and provide for workers who suffer from or are exposed to an infectious disease to ensure that they quarantine themselves and their families).

But it's worth reiterating and expanding on the point that quarantine is only ever going to have limited effectiveness, as many viruses are infectious long before becoming symptomatic; it is one of the reasons why viruses are such successful organisms. As international travel has increased the likelihood of widespread and rapid dissemination of viruses one of the greatest concerns amongst organisations like the WHO is ensuring rapid quarantine with the outbreak of a virulent and potentially deadly virus.

To put it in another perspective other than the human cost (which is significant enough in its own right), the economic and social effects of these outbreaks and the response to them is huge. The SARS epidemic is estimated to have cost between $30 and $40 billion (USD) in Asia alone, and given the relatively minor medical costs involved in its treatment by comparison to something like AIDs, most of this cost was in the implementation of quarantine and the result on major economies that were all but shut down for the duration. Admittedly, the mortality rate of SARS was significantly higher than, for example, measles or whooping cough, but it was also very well contained after the initial outbreak and the total number of cases was low by comparison to other viruses.

The reason that I specifically use SARS as an example because it was concerted quarantining efforts rather than a vaccine that successfully halted the spread of the virus - because a vaccine could not be developed. Whilst this does suggest that quarantine can be successful, purely from a macrosocial perspective, this is why vaccination programs are promoted so heavily, because it is far more feasible for world health authorities to try to prevent a disease than to manage its effects and prevent its spread once it has a toehold in the global community. Whilst managing viruses is by its nature reactive rather than proactive, it can be argued that the attempt to prevent a disease through vaccination, whilst not a failsafe, is a more proactive response than quarantine.

So finally getting to the point - quarantine and self management of infection control is something that can be managed effectively by an individual (and there are circumstances like those mentioned throughout the thread where the decision not to vaccinate is a necessary one), but it would not be a manageable strategy if applied to the entire global population. The tricky question is how big can the percentage of individuals get before the scales are tipped and the management of infectious disease becomes more reactive than preventative?

PS - (no smilies here - seeing that I've probably put y'all to sleep by now there's little chance of my words being interpreted as anything other than boring as batpoo ).

... Oh, and I asked previously if anyone knew of any clinical research on the effectiveness (success rate) of homeopathic vaccinations, as I have not been able to find any in my researches. Bumping this question as I'd be really grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. Ta!

[Lulu]

So finally getting to the point - quarantine and self management of infection control is something that can be managed effectively by an individual (and there are circumstances like those mentioned throughout the thread where the decision not to vaccinate is a necessary one), but it would not be a manageable strategy if applied to the entire global population. The tricky question is how big can the percentage of individuals get before the scales are tipped and the management of infectious disease becomes more reactive than preventative?

It is a good point Suse and true. And I don't know the answers. Do you think it would be too much to ask the the vaccs were reviewed in some way. Like not being cultured on the tissue of monkeys/pigs/chickens etc? Again ick on so many levels.
I understand the vax must contain stabilisers and whatnot - is there a better alternative?
I'm still to get my head around the homeopathic ways so I'm looking forward to hearing more on that too.

[~Saram~]

... Oh, and I asked previously if anyone knew of any clinical research on the effectiveness (success rate) of homeopathic vaccinations, as I have not been able to find any in my researches. Bumping this question as I'd be really grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. Ta!

Now I'm no expert in homeopathics - nor have I used it simply because I'm not well disciplined enough to follow the prescribed schedule for effective vaccination but from the literature I have read from one homeopath ... Homeopathic vaccinations do not actually give immunity to a microrganism/virus they are designed to almost program the body on how to react to certain symptoms or byproducts of microorganisms so the body can fight more effectively without getting sick - per se. The way she explained was it wasn't so much getting the homeopathic version of the MMR we would get a program of homeopathic remedies that would assist the body in preparing and better able to fight the symptoms of measles etc. If only I could dig up the info sheet... but it did have some very good stats as far as % of children who had used them which hadn't gotten the vaccinable diseases