Why not vaccinate?

[Inanna]

I am so sorry about your friends little one Mara... I don't know what to say but that it is hideous.

Saram: I don't get the banana thing - it all seemed fairly random to me but I think I am not quite as bright as I thought I was so I will concede some things just don't compute with me!

That's right they won't do a titre as it's not cost effective and it means two needle stab s instead of one in most cases...

[Lulu]

Oh Mara - gawd I'm an insensitive dork. I am very sorry about your friends baby, I really apologise I was completely in clinical/information mode - but that is no excuse.
That should never ever have happenend, what a tragic thing to happen

[Epacris]

Yes, I am fully aware that vaccines aren't 100% effective, I thought it was more like 95-99% not 60%. In any case, even if it's the upper range of effectivness, if there is a disease outbreak I am fully aware that my children may have no other protection other than herd immunity. And that is why I keep banging on about it. If vaccination rates drop below a certain level, herd immunity won't work. Those in our community that can't be safely vaccinated (unborn and newborn children and the immuno-compromised) AND anyone who has been vaccinated but for whom it hasn't worked, rely on herd immunity as their only means of protection.

I used to work in a job that I wouldn't say was high risk but there was a risk. For me, on balance, I chose to be vaccinated against the diseases that I could possibly come into contact with. Before I was vaccinated I had a blood test to determine my level of immunity, to see if a booster was required. And I had my boosters and blood checks accordingly. I hadn't thought of getting my children's blood checked though? I might ask their GP next time I see him what that would involve? So yes, I am also fully aware that vaccination, even if it is successful can wear off.

And this thing about dragging sick kids around all over the place, I have never, ever heard of people who vaccinate thinking that that's OK... because they've been vaccinated? Sick kids are sick kids FULL STOP. You just don't do that. DH's grandmother has been in hospital after having a stroke for a month now and she is desperate to see the children, it would be better than any tonic or exercise they could ever give her in hospital. But I haven't been able to take them for a visit because they've just not been quite right, you know, bit of a runny nose, bit of conjunctivitis. But no way would I risk it! The fact that they are vaccinated never even entered my mind, that's completely irrelevant in any circumstance such as this.

The whooping cough epidemic has been the worst in the Northern Rivers region of NSW which has a vaccination rate of about 80%. Perhaps this rate is too low to be providing herd immunity? I don't know Dana McCaffery (a four week old baby, too young to be vaccinated) that died of Whooping Cough was from there.

And I just want to double check that everyone understands my tone, because I haven't used many emoticons, because I couldn't really find any that I thought were right. I'm just talking completely normally, I'm not shouting, or anxious, or exasperated or anything. I'm just having a completely normal conversation.

Time for a smiley, or two.

[Kamarine]

Been lurking mostly in this thread - but have a question.
Do vaccination rates include booster shots? (If it's been asked - I apologise, I must have missed it.)
I know they keep track of childhood immunisations but if the rates for zones are based on that alone - then with something like pertussis would be inaccurate. Most people I know are unaware that the pertussis vaccination requires a booster shot - and even I only found out recently.

[~Saram~]

And I just want to double check that everyone understands my tone, because I haven't used many emoticons, because I couldn't really find any that I thought were right. I'm just talking completely normally, I'm not shouting, or anxious, or exasperated or anything. I'm just having a completely normal conversation.

Inanna - yep the whole banana thing has me totally confused too - which is why it's bugging me I hate stats like that that I can't work out if they are for real or not

Mara - hug to your friend - that is a terrible thing to have happen.

As for the pertussis outbreak - is it a different strain to the pertussis vaccinated against??? I am a little erked as we just got back from Dr as DD has a chest infection and dr has put us on the meds for whooping cough - JIC so she doesn't get that while fighting off this other but he went on to say that we need to be especially careful with her due to the weakness in her lungs etc as she wasn't fully vac ... funny thing is... we made sure she got the dip, tet and whooping cough ones - as I felt these ones we were at more risk of with her lungs and where we live and I checked the schedule tonight and yup she isn't due for a booster until 4 so... wouldn't that make her as fully immunised as a 2 yo could be??? - grr at him for making me feel bad and paranoid for no bloody reason!

[Lulu]

Small leaved shrub friend - I suppose you can look at some of the past threads (probably Boo Hoo!) to see that some people just don't get sickness.

Mayaness is a perfect example (and I don't think she will mind me using her as an example ) people insistent on attending an event whilst sick and poo pooing her about it. What happens? Well as far as I know poor Maya and her newborn bubs were really yucky sick. for the first 3 or so weeks this baby was ill when she didn't need to be.

I'm not even going to assume everyone that vacc's thinks all is well, it's just been my experience over the years. Especially when I end up in an RL bunfight with people about my non vacc status. I've heard it so many times before - my child vacc'd = don't have to worry. Just my experience though, and these are the people I tend to be around - blueergh!

xoxo

[Inanna]

I've had that too Lulu...

This whole vax thread has seeped my energy - so I hope some helpful info has come out of it for some!
It's a big big topic & one that I am glad can be discussed in here kindly.

[Epacris]

I've heard it so many times before - my child vacc'd = don't have to worry. Just my experience though, and these are the people I tend to be around - blueergh!

Really? Of course I have encountered the blase attitude "ahh, my kids aren't sick" when they clearly are. But honestly never, ever the “yeah my kids are vaccinated so they're alright" when they clearly are not. Well as a vaxer, I think that's just bloody crap!

Yeah big one hey. Oh well, hopefully it'll be nice and quiet over chrissy and the new year so we can all realxxx to the maxxxx

[Lolli]

*Feels the tension dissipate*

Ahhhhhh

[Lulu]

The best one was getting an earful from MIL and her saying something along the lines of well nieces wont get sick cos they have vaccs...then them coming down with CP approximatley 2 weeks later.

NOT schaudenfrude (bad spelling?), but it did open up the lines of communication about this stuff and now I know MIL feels better about the kids not being vacced. She had TB as a child and I understand a part of her was frightened, but it's all good now.

xoxoxo

and and wot Lori said!

[suse]

A few people have mentioned the importance of keeping sick people at home - which I am not disputing by any means (and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, believe that more should be in place to counteract the prevailing 'if you can stand you can work' ethos and provide for workers who suffer from or are exposed to an infectious disease to ensure that they quarantine themselves and their families).

But it's worth reiterating and expanding on the point that quarantine is only ever going to have limited effectiveness, as many viruses are infectious long before becoming symptomatic; it is one of the reasons why viruses are such successful organisms. As international travel has increased the likelihood of widespread and rapid dissemination of viruses one of the greatest concerns amongst organisations like the WHO is ensuring rapid quarantine with the outbreak of a virulent and potentially deadly virus.

To put it in another perspective other than the human cost (which is significant enough in its own right), the economic and social effects of these outbreaks and the response to them is huge. The SARS epidemic is estimated to have cost between $30 and $40 billion (USD) in Asia alone, and given the relatively minor medical costs involved in its treatment by comparison to something like AIDs, most of this cost was in the implementation of quarantine and the result on major economies that were all but shut down for the duration. Admittedly, the mortality rate of SARS was significantly higher than, for example, measles or whooping cough, but it was also very well contained after the initial outbreak and the total number of cases was low by comparison to other viruses.

The reason that I specifically use SARS as an example because it was concerted quarantining efforts rather than a vaccine that successfully halted the spread of the virus - because a vaccine could not be developed. Whilst this does suggest that quarantine can be successful, purely from a macrosocial perspective, this is why vaccination programs are promoted so heavily, because it is far more feasible for world health authorities to try to prevent a disease than to manage its effects and prevent its spread once it has a toehold in the global community. Whilst managing viruses is by its nature reactive rather than proactive, it can be argued that the attempt to prevent a disease through vaccination, whilst not a failsafe, is a more proactive response than quarantine.

So finally getting to the point - quarantine and self management of infection control is something that can be managed effectively by an individual (and there are circumstances like those mentioned throughout the thread where the decision not to vaccinate is a necessary one), but it would not be a manageable strategy if applied to the entire global population. The tricky question is how big can the percentage of individuals get before the scales are tipped and the management of infectious disease becomes more reactive than preventative?

PS - (no smilies here - seeing that I've probably put y'all to sleep by now there's little chance of my words being interpreted as anything other than boring as batpoo ).

... Oh, and I asked previously if anyone knew of any clinical research on the effectiveness (success rate) of homeopathic vaccinations, as I have not been able to find any in my researches. Bumping this question as I'd be really grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. Ta!

[Lulu]

So finally getting to the point - quarantine and self management of infection control is something that can be managed effectively by an individual (and there are circumstances like those mentioned throughout the thread where the decision not to vaccinate is a necessary one), but it would not be a manageable strategy if applied to the entire global population. The tricky question is how big can the percentage of individuals get before the scales are tipped and the management of infectious disease becomes more reactive than preventative?

It is a good point Suse and true. And I don't know the answers. Do you think it would be too much to ask the the vaccs were reviewed in some way. Like not being cultured on the tissue of monkeys/pigs/chickens etc? Again ick on so many levels.
I understand the vax must contain stabilisers and whatnot - is there a better alternative?
I'm still to get my head around the homeopathic ways so I'm looking forward to hearing more on that too.

[~Saram~]

... Oh, and I asked previously if anyone knew of any clinical research on the effectiveness (success rate) of homeopathic vaccinations, as I have not been able to find any in my researches. Bumping this question as I'd be really grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. Ta!

Now I'm no expert in homeopathics - nor have I used it simply because I'm not well disciplined enough to follow the prescribed schedule for effective vaccination but from the literature I have read from one homeopath ... Homeopathic vaccinations do not actually give immunity to a microrganism/virus they are designed to almost program the body on how to react to certain symptoms or byproducts of microorganisms so the body can fight more effectively without getting sick - per se. The way she explained was it wasn't so much getting the homeopathic version of the MMR we would get a program of homeopathic remedies that would assist the body in preparing and better able to fight the symptoms of measles etc. If only I could dig up the info sheet... but it did have some very good stats as far as % of children who had used them which hadn't gotten the vaccinable diseases

[~MummaBear~]

Hey!
I just have a couple of questions i hope that is ok!!
all my kids are fully vaxed and as much as i would like to say it was because i read the info and made an informed desision i cant. I did do it because i chose to do it becuase a tthe time i believed it to be the "right" thing and having my time over i would most probably do the same cause even after reading all the things that have been bought up in this thread and honestly being able to see both sides of the argument i still believe that i have do the right thing for my family.
anyway my questions are...
Is it only the combined MMR that poses the risk to Autisum? and is it true that the "autisum" has always been there from the start and it just needed something to trigger it? ( i know that i may have worded that wrong and i really hope that it doesnt offend anyone it was no my intention)

also for the people that have chosen not to use the MMR do you worry about your little girls when they start to have babies? well not so much your children but your grandchildren? Is there a way around that risk?
Do you worry about your little booys getting mumps? i think that is the one that can cause them to be come sterile? Is ther a way around that??
Again i am not trying to be mean or anything, i just really want to know

[Traveller]

I will try to answer your questions from my own point of view.

Is it only the combined MMR that poses the risk to Autisum?

This is the one most people are worried about. However the original research that suggested a link has been extensively discredited. Many people nowadays suspect it is the combined attack on the immune system that caused problems, and not the science behind the vaccinations themselves. Others blame the chemical make-up of the vaccinations. However despite Dr Wakefield's research being discredited, when it first came out a lot of parents came forth and said they believed it because of what they had seen happen to their own children, hence why the suggestion of a link has not gone away.

and is it true that the "autisum" has always been there from the start and it just needed something to trigger it? ( i know that i may have worded that wrong and i really hope that it doesnt offend anyone it was no my intention)

Some people believe so, but the research is purely based anecdotal evidence at this time. Some people believe vaccines exacerbate autism, others (like me) believe it shocks the body into shutting down and withdrawing, but does not cause autism, just autistic tendencies (unless the child is already autistic).

also for the people that have chosen not to use the MMR do you worry about your little girls when they start to have babies? well not so much your children but your grandchildren? Is there a way around that risk?

Personally I worry very much, so much in fact that I may consider getting my daughter vaccinated with the MMR when she is a teenager, unless the single vaccines become available before then.

Do you worry about your little booys getting mumps? i think that is the one that can cause them to be come sterile? Is ther a way around that??
Again i am not trying to be mean or anything, i just really want to know

A valid question, and yes again I do worry and may give my sons the MMR as teenagers for this very reason. I believe the shock to the system will be less to a teenager than to a small baby or child.

I hope this has helped a little

T
xx

[Lulu]

My son has already had mumps - the possibility that mumps may cause sterility is if it's caught as teenagers or older.

MMR and daughters - I'll leave that up to them, they will be old enough to take care of themselves when they are having babies!

[Pretty Butterfly]

Just jumping in to say that I am not the prettybutterfly who was in this thread and changed usernames folks... I've had a few PM's.....

[Trillian]

ROFL!