Registered User
so is he an anethetist?
and would he loose out if most women didnt have epidurals?
could he lose his job if it was only an emergancy procedure not used as a common pain relief?
BB is a gentle birthing and gentle parenting site
if you dont like the "propaganda" we spread...
Registered User
I haven't read the book, so can't comment on its position or its bias, but I think that it would be better to say that those who want an epidural should have a thorough and accurate understanding of both the benefits and risks of having one.
To say that there are risks is not mumbo jumbo, it is not propaganda, it is not lies and deceit, it is fact based on empirical evidence. No one here is saying don't have an epidural, instead that it is up to the individual to decide whether the benefit they will personally gain from an epidural will outweigh the potential risks, based on an accurate understanding of those risks.
Registered User
Sorry but it just ISN'T supported by the evidence. You really need to read the book and the refs cited. It was proven in 2005 or 6, can't remember, that they DO NOT lead to longer labours or more interventions for example. EVEN when given early.
And yes his book lists some risks. They are put in perspective and not glossed over. But the thing most people don't know is that there are also risks the other way. And they CAN be significant for some like me. I would have had a caesar without my epidural, no question. I'm not the only one.
Like I said - I know its the knee jerk to say a Dr is biased. But someone needs to stand up and say midwives are damned well biased the other way and should be treated with at least equal suspicion. Their earnings are much more linked to a per capita usage of their non-medicated services.
No one, least of all Grant, is trying to make people have epidurals who don't want them. But if you DO want them do not be put off by the propaganda. And yes that IS what it is.
Registered User
Just a question - how do you know what is ACCURATE and what isn't? Is it just because a midwife said so? There really isn't any empirical evidence out there to dispute Grant, only anecdotes from people with vested interests as noted.
Hey I'm the last person to deny these women a living. And I'm sure there will always be enough women who want to give birth that way to keep them in business. But I do think its low to talk up the risks with little to no evidence and then be re-quoted and re-quoted like an urban myth.
Registered User
um there is a lot of evidence that to have an epidural is a higher risk than not. If you are coming onto BB to discuss something, fine, but if you are coming on to fight against the ideals over a majority of a community, you will have to expect some response.
From "A Thinking Woman's Guide to Better Birth" by Hency Goer
from Howell C.J. Epidural vs non-epidural analgesia in labour.An analysis of data from four random-assignment trials found that epidurals increased the use of oxytocin by 450 percent.
I have 66 reference articles in relation to the effects of epidurals on both the mothers & children in childbirth. From separate authors and from separate research papers.
Registered User
I think I'll keep going with my evidence-based approach to labour and delivery, and not change my stance based on one person's book, thanks
Sounds like you wanted to find someone to validate what you wanted for your birth choice, and you found it, and that's great - but that doesn't mean everyone else has been sucked in by "propaganda". Sure, there is a place for epidural anaesthesia, but you can sell that without having to insult the intelligence of the community
Registered User
Only the over defensive would take it as an insult. I've been MORE than polite given the implied insults to me.
Read the book. Bag it then if you wish. But until you've read it you can't bag it. That's not just evidence based, that's fact.
I want other women on BB to know that I had the most gentle possible birth with my DS. I slept through the early stages, how much more gentle can you get? I had 35 mins of painless pushing. It was pretty much perfect. And yeah I adore the man who enabled that, but I think his book is worth reading anyway. And as I said, bag is AFTER that by all means.
Registered User
Nope! That's exactly my point. He would ALWAYS have a job, there's plenty of obstetric anesthetics for the c sections and highly complicated births. He doesn't mind if he only gets 5 a day instead of 20, REALLY. And his salary is unaffected. In fact his main job is the dangerously ill mamas, not the just want pain relief mamas.
But he dispells a lot of the myths. And you can't argue he doesn't know how epidurals work, what the possible effects are and the science behind them. Whereas a midwife or other nurse is NOT educated in those things. AND those people DO have a strong interest in discouraging pain relief that makes them redundant because they ARE paid by the patient, not as a salary.
The conflict of interest is TOTALLY the other way and so is the level of knowledge imbalance.
I had an epidural personally from this guy too and he is EXTREMELY professional. There is nothing pushy or "big mean man doctor bossing women around" about him.
Registered User
I had no idea t hat you had to join a secret club to politely share views and information on here. Says it all really.
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