"Enjoy your Labor" by Gilbert Grant is GREAT!

[fatmama]

This is a book that really changed the way I saw epidurals. I used to buy all the mumbo jumbo, you know, it slows labour down, leads to c sections blah blah

Well this book is written by a guy who knows more about epidurals than most. And who has nothing to gain - he gets paid the same regardless as he's salaried.

The picture is NOT what the natural-birthers like. It shows there are actually dangers to NOT having an epi for some women (I happen to be one! we do exist!). And it shows that they do not have the effects that they are often damned with, unless administered incompetently.

The message is - if you want one, do NOT be scared off by the propaganda. And hey if you don't want one, just go your merry way but DON'T spread lies and deceit.

[Oorki Galoorki]

so is he an anethetist?
and would he loose out if most women didnt have epidurals?
could he lose his job if it was only an emergancy procedure not used as a common pain relief?

BB is a gentle birthing and gentle parenting site
if you dont like the "propaganda" we spread...

[suse]

I haven't read the book, so can't comment on its position or its bias, but I think that it would be better to say that those who want an epidural should have a thorough and accurate understanding of both the benefits and risks of having one.

To say that there are risks is not mumbo jumbo, it is not propaganda, it is not lies and deceit, it is fact based on empirical evidence. No one here is saying don't have an epidural, instead that it is up to the individual to decide whether the benefit they will personally gain from an epidural will outweigh the potential risks, based on an accurate understanding of those risks.

[fatmama]

Nope! That's exactly my point. He would ALWAYS have a job, there's plenty of obstetric anesthetics for the c sections and highly complicated births. He doesn't mind if he only gets 5 a day instead of 20, REALLY. And his salary is unaffected. In fact his main job is the dangerously ill mamas, not the just want pain relief mamas.

But he dispells a lot of the myths. And you can't argue he doesn't know how epidurals work, what the possible effects are and the science behind them. Whereas a midwife or other nurse is NOT educated in those things. AND those people DO have a strong interest in discouraging pain relief that makes them redundant because they ARE paid by the patient, not as a salary.

The conflict of interest is TOTALLY the other way and so is the level of knowledge imbalance.

I had an epidural personally from this guy too and he is EXTREMELY professional. There is nothing pushy or "big mean man doctor bossing women around" about him.

[fatmama]

I haven't read the book, so can't comment on its position or its bias, but I think that it would be better to say that those who want an epidural should have a thorough and accurate understanding of both the benefits and risks of having one.

To say that there are risks is not mumbo jumbo, it is not propaganda, it is not lies and deceit, it is fact based on empirical evidence. No one here is saying don't have an epidural, instead that it is up to the individual to decide whether the benefit they will personally gain from an epidural will outweigh the potential risks, based on an accurate understanding of those risks.

Sorry but it just ISN'T supported by the evidence. You really need to read the book and the refs cited. It was proven in 2005 or 6, can't remember, that they DO NOT lead to longer labours or more interventions for example. EVEN when given early.

And yes his book lists some risks. They are put in perspective and not glossed over. But the thing most people don't know is that there are also risks the other way. And they CAN be significant for some like me. I would have had a caesar without my epidural, no question. I'm not the only one.

Like I said - I know its the knee jerk to say a Dr is biased. But someone needs to stand up and say midwives are damned well biased the other way and should be treated with at least equal suspicion. Their earnings are much more linked to a per capita usage of their non-medicated services.

No one, least of all Grant, is trying to make people have epidurals who don't want them. But if you DO want them do not be put off by the propaganda. And yes that IS what it is.

[fatmama]

Just a question - how do you know what is ACCURATE and what isn't? Is it just because a midwife said so? There really isn't any empirical evidence out there to dispute Grant, only anecdotes from people with vested interests as noted.

Hey I'm the last person to deny these women a living. And I'm sure there will always be enough women who want to give birth that way to keep them in business. But I do think its low to talk up the risks with little to no evidence and then be re-quoted and re-quoted like an urban myth.

[fatmama]

BB is a gentle birthing and gentle parenting site
if you dont like the "propaganda" we spread...

I had no idea t hat you had to join a secret club to politely share views and information on here. Says it all really.

[christy]

um there is a lot of evidence that to have an epidural is a higher risk than not. If you are coming onto BB to discuss something, fine, but if you are coming on to fight against the ideals over a majority of a community, you will have to expect some response.

From "A Thinking Woman's Guide to Better Birth" by Hency Goer

An analysis of data from four random-assignment trials found that epidurals increased the use of oxytocin by 450 percent.

from Howell C.J. Epidural vs non-epidural analgesia in labour.

I have 66 reference articles in relation to the effects of epidurals on both the mothers & children in childbirth. From separate authors and from separate research papers.

[Toomanytoomany]

I think I'll keep going with my evidence-based approach to labour and delivery, and not change my stance based on one person's book, thanks

Sounds like you wanted to find someone to validate what you wanted for your birth choice, and you found it, and that's great - but that doesn't mean everyone else has been sucked in by "propaganda". Sure, there is a place for epidural anaesthesia, but you can sell that without having to insult the intelligence of the community

[fatmama]

Only the over defensive would take it as an insult. I've been MORE than polite given the implied insults to me.

Read the book. Bag it then if you wish. But until you've read it you can't bag it. That's not just evidence based, that's fact.

I want other women on BB to know that I had the most gentle possible birth with my DS. I slept through the early stages, how much more gentle can you get? I had 35 mins of painless pushing. It was pretty much perfect. And yeah I adore the man who enabled that, but I think his book is worth reading anyway. And as I said, bag is AFTER that by all means.

[Toomanytoomany]

You are shouting in parts of your post (all caps) and calling the reasoning many women use "propaganda" and accuse "natural-birthers" of being biased from the get-go (even though as an author with a professional agenda to push, he is apparently not biased). I'm failing to see how that's not insulting to the intelligence of your audience here. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I don't have any wish to read his book - I've had five labours, enjoyed four of them very much and have had little to no need of analgesia of any sort, let alone spinal anaesthesia. I'm sure that if his research is of a high quality, it will be included in all of the reviews and reports upon which I normally base my opinions.

[MantaRay]

It seems fatmama that you have an agenda - to sell the book - not to be part of the community. It is always suspicious when someone signs up just to post a recommendation. It's not like you are contributing to any other discussions.

On the subject of epidurals, personally I don't really care what the "experts" or "statistics" say. I know I would never have one again. I ended up with slowed labour, low bp, a baby in foetal distress, forceps, a tear and an episotomy. All that when my labour would have been quick and easy other wise, as I know now after having a fantastic epidural free birth the next time. And boy, I can tell you how much better it feels after giving birth without an epidural. If you've ever experienced both I can't imagine you'd ever choose an epidural again.

[Oorki Galoorki]

i have slept throught 2nd stage of labour with no epidural as that is what my body needed and it wasnt a un natural responce.

i would love for you to show me some of the references he has cited so i can check them out my self. but knowing the research i have looked at and am currently looking at for university that the common opinion is that epidurals shouldnt be used as a pain relief, they do slow labours down and have longer lasting after affects on many women.
i have not said there is no need for them.. just like c/s there is a needfor a 5 of them. but most doctors and a few women like to think its the best thing to have... when if dodctors where honest about the risks involved then most wouldnt want it.

i would love to know your story.
what did you have that meant you HAD to have an epidural?

[fatmama]

No agenda, and no shouting either. My italics are not working and I only put caps where italics would be. Shouting would be more obvious.

I didn't HAVE to have (yes italics again), an epi, but without it I would have had a c section. That was predicted and turned out to have been right as t hings went.

I know perfectly well many will not want them or disagree with it. That's fine. But read it first otherwise its not really fair is it? How do you know he's wrong yet?

I have posted elsewhere btw. I just discovered this site and goodness, I thought what a great topic it was to share info. Boy, obviously I was wrong.

I bet if I'd posted about Ina May I'd get whoops and kisses even though she has way less supporting data.

Doesn't matter. There may be a woman out there who reads this and who decides to read it and NOT to be scared off the epidural. This is for those women.

[christy]

Dou dou I too slept through my second stage of labour in between contractions. I loved feeling my baby move down the birth canal as well... it was like a celebration for us.

With my first labour, the epidural dropped my blood pressure so much that it caused heaps of issues. They had to turn off the drugs which then led to me being unable to move while the contractions ripped through my body and then... well it was traumatic.

I would suggest to move women to read more than one study on their own and with their birth support before listening to second hand advice.

[fatmama]

LOL - all your posts are second hand advice too my dear
And until you've read the evidence he presents you can't even argue with it. But well done at sticking to your guns. No one can say the midwife lobby isn't tenacious.

[christy]

I am not a part of the midwife lobby, thank you very much. I am someone who has had to do heaps of research leading up to my own birth, and am passionate about women having the opportunity to make decisions for themselves.

[MantaRay]

There are no mws posting in this thread fatmama. Just experienced birthers sharing our experiences. And I could read 1000 books and none of it would change how I feel because my experience carries more weight for me.

I would be very interested to hear how an epidural prevented a c/s - given that it usually works the other way I am sure your story would be worth a read.

BTW - you can put words in italics but highlighting them and then pressing ctrl-I.

You have 9 posts and 8 are in this thread - what commission do you get for book sales?