"Enjoy your Labor" by Gilbert Grant is GREAT!

[fatmama]

This is a book that really changed the way I saw epidurals. I used to buy all the mumbo jumbo, you know, it slows labour down, leads to c sections blah blah

Well this book is written by a guy who knows more about epidurals than most. And who has nothing to gain - he gets paid the same regardless as he's salaried.

The picture is NOT what the natural-birthers like. It shows there are actually dangers to NOT having an epi for some women (I happen to be one! we do exist!). And it shows that they do not have the effects that they are often damned with, unless administered incompetently.

The message is - if you want one, do NOT be scared off by the propaganda. And hey if you don't want one, just go your merry way but DON'T spread lies and deceit.

[Oorki Galoorki]

so is he an anethetist?
and would he loose out if most women didnt have epidurals?
could he lose his job if it was only an emergancy procedure not used as a common pain relief?

BB is a gentle birthing and gentle parenting site
if you dont like the "propaganda" we spread...

[suse]

I haven't read the book, so can't comment on its position or its bias, but I think that it would be better to say that those who want an epidural should have a thorough and accurate understanding of both the benefits and risks of having one.

To say that there are risks is not mumbo jumbo, it is not propaganda, it is not lies and deceit, it is fact based on empirical evidence. No one here is saying don't have an epidural, instead that it is up to the individual to decide whether the benefit they will personally gain from an epidural will outweigh the potential risks, based on an accurate understanding of those risks.

[fatmama]

I haven't read the book, so can't comment on its position or its bias, but I think that it would be better to say that those who want an epidural should have a thorough and accurate understanding of both the benefits and risks of having one.

To say that there are risks is not mumbo jumbo, it is not propaganda, it is not lies and deceit, it is fact based on empirical evidence. No one here is saying don't have an epidural, instead that it is up to the individual to decide whether the benefit they will personally gain from an epidural will outweigh the potential risks, based on an accurate understanding of those risks.

Sorry but it just ISN'T supported by the evidence. You really need to read the book and the refs cited. It was proven in 2005 or 6, can't remember, that they DO NOT lead to longer labours or more interventions for example. EVEN when given early.

And yes his book lists some risks. They are put in perspective and not glossed over. But the thing most people don't know is that there are also risks the other way. And they CAN be significant for some like me. I would have had a caesar without my epidural, no question. I'm not the only one.

Like I said - I know its the knee jerk to say a Dr is biased. But someone needs to stand up and say midwives are damned well biased the other way and should be treated with at least equal suspicion. Their earnings are much more linked to a per capita usage of their non-medicated services.

No one, least of all Grant, is trying to make people have epidurals who don't want them. But if you DO want them do not be put off by the propaganda. And yes that IS what it is.

[fatmama]

Just a question - how do you know what is ACCURATE and what isn't? Is it just because a midwife said so? There really isn't any empirical evidence out there to dispute Grant, only anecdotes from people with vested interests as noted.

Hey I'm the last person to deny these women a living. And I'm sure there will always be enough women who want to give birth that way to keep them in business. But I do think its low to talk up the risks with little to no evidence and then be re-quoted and re-quoted like an urban myth.

[christy]

um there is a lot of evidence that to have an epidural is a higher risk than not. If you are coming onto BB to discuss something, fine, but if you are coming on to fight against the ideals over a majority of a community, you will have to expect some response.

From "A Thinking Woman's Guide to Better Birth" by Hency Goer

An analysis of data from four random-assignment trials found that epidurals increased the use of oxytocin by 450 percent.

from Howell C.J. Epidural vs non-epidural analgesia in labour.

I have 66 reference articles in relation to the effects of epidurals on both the mothers & children in childbirth. From separate authors and from separate research papers.

[fatmama]

Nope! That's exactly my point. He would ALWAYS have a job, there's plenty of obstetric anesthetics for the c sections and highly complicated births. He doesn't mind if he only gets 5 a day instead of 20, REALLY. And his salary is unaffected. In fact his main job is the dangerously ill mamas, not the just want pain relief mamas.

But he dispells a lot of the myths. And you can't argue he doesn't know how epidurals work, what the possible effects are and the science behind them. Whereas a midwife or other nurse is NOT educated in those things. AND those people DO have a strong interest in discouraging pain relief that makes them redundant because they ARE paid by the patient, not as a salary.

The conflict of interest is TOTALLY the other way and so is the level of knowledge imbalance.

I had an epidural personally from this guy too and he is EXTREMELY professional. There is nothing pushy or "big mean man doctor bossing women around" about him.

[fatmama]

BB is a gentle birthing and gentle parenting site
if you dont like the "propaganda" we spread...

I had no idea t hat you had to join a secret club to politely share views and information on here. Says it all really.

[Schmickers]

Hi there Fat Mama, and welcome to the forum. We welcome lively debate here on all topics, as long as you stick by the forum guidelines. Be aware that this is predominantly a natural parenting and birth forum, but we welcome comers from all walks of life and all ideologies.

The picture is NOT what the natural-birthers like. It shows there are actually dangers to NOT having an epi for some women (I happen to be one! we do exist!). And it shows that they do not have the effects that they are often damned with, unless administered incompetently.

My first response to this is that I'd suggest that it may be challenging, depending on where you give birth, to find an anaesthetist who is "competent" - safe, skilled, and experienced - in administering epidurals. The problem being I have yet to meet the anaesthetist who said "Excuse me, I just don't feel confident doing this. Perhaps another form of pain relief might be a better option?"

I haven't read the book myself. However, I know for a fact that I can probably find a book to support just about any position I want to. It doesn't mean that the book is right. If this guy really has enough evidence there to overcome the large body of research that confirms the risks associated with epidural, then it must be one hell of a book.

if you want one, do NOT be scared off by the propaganda. And hey if you don't want one, just go your merry way but DON'T spread lies and deceit.

Well, I'm not sure about anything else, but as a nurse, I don't spread lies and deceit; I allow myself to be guided by the evidence. As I said above, if he has enough compelling evidence to overcome years of research to the contrary, I hope he's been nominated for some sort of award.

As far as this forum is concerned, we don't spread propaganda, and we don't lie. We're actually quite a nice bunch, if you take the time to get to know us. All we do is share - share our stories, our experiences, about birth, about families. Some of those stories are about epidurals. Most of them are negative. That's not to do with attempts to decieve or lie; it's a function of how we experience our births.

This is a book that really changed the way I saw epidurals. I used to buy all the mumbo jumbo, you know, it slows labour down, leads to c sections blah blah

*puzzled* Are you marketing this book, or recommending it?

[jackrose]

FWIW, I enjoyed my labour!

never advised out of an epidural by a midwife....

[AliBaby]

Interesting......

You might be trying to simply inform women about this book but maybe you should explore the site a bit more before you make judgments and pressume what people are like on here because you would find that nobody presures anyone or judges anyone for the decisions they make for the birth of their own child.

Just to give you an idea about what BB is like....

I have never felt pressured one way or another about anything on this site (esp not pain relief).

After recently sharing my pregnancy and birth journey on here and gaining advice from the wonderful members of this community I felt like I had the confidence and the information to get through childbirth. I didnt have a birthplan and certainly didnt go into labour thinking "I will not have drugs"! I had an open mind and knew that I was informed enough to make decisions either way. Well it turned out that I could do it without drugs and yes it hurt and I think I requested them to "suck it out of me" with the vacum at one stage but with the support of the midwives and my DP I did it without intervention. The midwives had nothing to gain or lose by me having an epidural. They would still have a job either way.

I am not saying that this is the case for all women but let me tell you and anybody else reading this that after having a gf tell me that I needed an epidural I was petrified. It wasn't until I came to this site and explored it that I realised this wasnt the case but if needed so be it (no judgement).

There was recently a poll taken in regards to what intervention was needed (if any) if you had an epidural. From my last look at this poll it was about 60% needed further intervention. These results speak for themselves I think.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I would say that an epidural properly given is fantastic. It allows you to still feel contractions, only less intensely, and it allows you to know when to push and feel the birth canal perfectly.

However, even the midwives were surprised my first epidural was perfect! That rarely happens. And knowing that they still pushed me into it. So why push it at all, especially when I wasn't in pain and was all relaxed and enjoying labour (well, while the midwives weren't bossing me about at any rate)?

Oh yes, and to get the "perfect" (which should actually be standard) epidural, you need to be relaxed. I was told off for being too relaxed, which is why I wasn't given pethadine. Most women who need one because of "unbearable" pain (try having my Obs then telling me about pain in normal labour!) aren't relaxed so it's the wrong time to give it. So that is a good argument for an epidural in early labour. Although I would never recommend one as standard practice because it's drugging up your body and it doesn't hurt (I know, I didn't give birth so can't comment, but having a baby half-way down the birth canal didn't hurt so I can't see that the last few inches would have been too bad) and because these drugs can kill your unborn baby. They did mine.

I did not need more intervention because of an epidural. I needed more intervention because of an incompetent hospital staff, from the moment I got in there until the moment I left just over four days later. And that's why I'll be freebirthing should I ever have another child: not because I don't want drugs, but because I don't want them pushed and I don't want to put up with midwives and obstetritians again!

(BTW, I don't trust midwives OR doctors, only my own body! Even though the name Dr Gilbert does inspire confidence in me, his last name is Grant and not Blythe so I don't fully trust him. I'm more on the intervention-free side than the intervention side of the argument.)

[2CheekyMonkeys]

i guess the point to all this is, if you have taken steps to research both positive and negative effects of all aspects of labour and birth and are knowlegeable then you have done all you can to make the right choices for yourself and your baby. i think maybe this would have gone down better if put in a more respectful, less judgemental and friendly manner... ??