I didn't say it was. But men were discussed at some length. Can I not respond to male-based comments because I am a man?:
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I didn't say it was. But men were discussed at some length. Can I not respond to male-based comments because I am a man?:
...and I'm not suggesting that a woman should defer to anyone. Far from it. I just don't why some people in this thread are making (some) men out to be stupid door mats. Like I said, if the shoe was on the other foot we'd have a bunch of crazy militants calling for blood.:
I agree with you Slyder that this is about men & of course you have a right to comment. I for one am glad you are. I don't see thogh that women are making men seem dopey my love!
Just that some women find their Men not as engaged in the education of the birthing process & this is the topic.
You are. You are knowledgeable, compassionate and present. You rock. But somne men are not engaged in the process - they rock in otherways - just not in this way...
I though can see why you are defending Manhood - & I would hope that no one is generalising - just discussing their experiences with their particular Men...
I think this is a bit OT, but anyway...
On one level, I agree - it is my body - but at the same time, it's not only my birth; it's our baby's birth too and I do believe fathers should have some say in this.
At the end of the day, we both want the same thing, so (hopefully) talking openly about it can ensure we make a joint decision that we're both happy with. That's how it works for us, anyway.
Yeah not toooo sure about stupid doormats?? But they are from Mars! (Not that there's anything wrong with that...!)
My personal feeling - to answer my posed question from earlier - is that it is not fair to say 'my body my choice' as a blanket statment when it comes to childbirth. If women want men involved then we have to be willing to have them genuinely involved ie give them a voice too, if they wish to use it. The only fair alternative, in my view, is to take the 'birth is Woman's business' perspective of Innana's. I'm not sure that we can have it both ways.
You're dead right, there are so many blokes with the switch permanently off. No doubt about it. Blokes who only engage in "bloke stuff" are fools, the same as women who only engage in "women stuff" are the same.:
To me, some of the comments in this thread are very generalised male knocking tripe, which is a common theme as soon as some women get together and start cackling on about men. Same as idiot blokes at the pub always slagging off "the missus". But on the other hand, maybe I'm just a bit hormonal today.
LOL. The word 'incorrigible' comes to mind!:
You are heard Slyder my friend. I agree that women can be man bashers just as men can be misogynists...
I also hear you Ali - about the line... I actually am not sure you can have it both ways either. I couldn't agree to a c/section just because my partner wanted it for me or thought it were best. I would hope he would trust my wisdom & knowledge of my body...
When I say birth is womens business I don't mean it has to exclude men. Just that it is a rite of passage for women. Men can beautifully join with that as they support emotionally and spiritually a woman birthing their child... But ultimately it is the woman's body that is birthing so she needs to feel her decisions are honoured and heard. :hug:
You are not hormonal Slyder. You are just as entitled to your POV as anyone else. Slyder if you want to chat to my DH about any of this he'd be happy to, as he was an awesome birth support person and he is a man ;)
And Ali I don't think Slyder is being incorrigible at all. He has just as much right to disagree or agree or put his thoughts across as anyone else does.
well to answer th original post DH was not very well informed at all but i will say neither was i
but i did know a fair bit DH thought that an epidural was a good idea and after a massive fight we talked and he understood wat that meant for me and that probably wasnt a good idea
when i had the BH's he was acti g like an idiot yelling and just being plain silly but when it came to that actual birth he was awesome and calm as he never needed to say anything for me but i know that if he did he would have done a wonderful job hes now even open to having a homebirth next time we have a bubba
Sorry Rouge / Slyder - just to clarify - I thought the 'hormonal' comment from Slyder was a fun little elbow at the ladies, hence my 'incorrigible' interpretation of that comment. I was not offended, just amused, and as per my selective quote it was not intended to relate to anything else Slyder had to say. (Which I actually agreed with in my PP!):
Fairy nuff Slyder, I'll put my guns away, sorry for misunderstanding :)
I do agree that there can be gender bashing on both sides, at times I get uncomfortable around women who say that EVERYTHING that comes out of a mans mouth is sexist, I don't agree with that. I feel DH and I have a pretty equal relationship, and he says he feels listened to about our birth choices, so I think we're in a good place.
WRT the comments you're referring to, maybe you could quote them so they can be explained? I can't think of which ones you could be talking about, but that's the only way to keep the discussion going :)
:yeahthat:
I would like some clarity about which comments were about men and making them look stupid. I certainly hadn't intended for my DH to look stupid, because he's not - but in answer to the original question, my DH is not as informed about the birth as I am.
I would also say that I don't expect my DH to be as informed, or at least informed in the way I am, because he's not the one giving birth. He only needs to be informed enough to support me and to be involved, whereas I need to be informed enough to do the birthing. The same could be said of breastfeeding - I need to be informed (for my own piece of mind and my own understanding) so that I can try it and hope it works. My DH only needs to be informed enough to respect the process, my needs and baby's needs so that he can support me to do it. Does that make sense?
I've deliberately avoided quoting various comments and naming names, because as a former mod I know how quickly these things become hysterical and I wouldn't wish that on the current team.
It's not a big deal. The thread has now gone away from what Berenice was originally on about so I won't say anything further on that particular issue. Bygones.
Hrmmm...
running late so have only skimmed the last few posts....
But I can see how my posts may have been considered patronsising or offensive Slyder? and if that is the case, I sincerely apologise. It certainly wasn't intended to be but I may have over-generalised a bit...my bad :redface:
Really, it's not a big deal. Whatever you do don't apologise! I'd rather you tell me to get stuffed - it's like when a woman cries, it's just not playing by the rules.
TBH without going back through the thread again I can't recall who said whatever I was highlighting. It's really not that important - mine is just one opinion.
Back to Berenice's thread!! :)
Ok, have re-read the whole thread now.
Just to clarify - I in no way think my DH is a stupid doormat :lol: just not as engaged as some people, (be they male or female).
Not that he's not interested - he will happily discuss the ins & outs of labour & childbirth with anyone - but he was not as interested in the reading & learning that I was leading up to the birth. ITMS?
- like that ;):
ETA - It was a great support emotionally to have him there during my labours & I would not have NOT had him there IYKWIM. But to answer the OP in short, no, I don't feel that he was as informed as me.
And as for who has the final say - it's one of those things where there is little room for compromise, at least when you get right down to it, for example will she have pain relief or not.
An understanding and respect for where your partner is coming from is important.. that goes without saying....I hate the thought of going into the delivery room at odds over birth preferences.
For me, I think it would come down to what the issue was though.
Yes, it's a woman's body but it is their baby.
Just wondering - it's a hypothetical & obviously you would hope it never happens. But if a woman & her partner are in disagreement during the labour & delivery room, who do the caregivers give the final say to?
The woman.
The Woman! Woman's body, woman's decision... I believe there was a case in the US (of course!) where a woman wanted to birth her breech baby vaginally & was refusing c/section. Her ex partner tried to get an interim order to insist on the baby being born "in the safest way" which was deemed by the medical staff as being vaginally... I believe that in the end she birthed vaginally as until the baby was born she had the right to decide over her body...
Not sure though how this would stand legally here... For, I have known cases where authoritites became involved when suspicious of a woman's intent to birth VBAC at home...
I am telling my partner everything lol much to his dismay! I give him the ins and outs of a ducks bum because i want whats right for me! (Plus i am scared of needles so would really love to avoid a c-sect if posible)
Also, he can come across very arrogant (though i see the soft side) so i am confident he will tell the docs to back up if need be.
Mind you im not even preg yet :P
Plus i like to watch him quirm hehehe
Michel Odent recently has said that Men(although it should be partners) shouldnt be in the room with a birthing woman simply because their support often(not always) is what a woman needs.
our partners hate seeing us in pain and if they are not sure about how to help or to encourage you then they can easily opt for the drugs on our behalf.. which may be what we do not want. They are simply trying to help.
I know with my DH in my first labour he was great but he was FREAKED out! he was my voice and when i was begging for an epidural and about to get one the nurses asked again and he said no for me! he knew i desperatly did not want one.I had sat down with him and went through the pros and cons of every thing in our birth plan he knew it as well as i did. but he didnt do the research.
with #2 he was so busy filling the pool that he didnt need to worry about me! he fed me, he kept me warm, he cuddled me and we had a nap together! he was who i rested on while our baby was born. He trusted me to know what i wanted and to do what i needed to achieve it, but i didnt have nurses or doctors to contend with either.
DH isnt the researcher in our family I am and he is happy to listen when i suggest things.. if he is un sure i will also show him the information on the otherside and he can make a choice to.. if it is different well then we discuss it until we BOTH feel comfortable.
But all women will do any thing and everything to have a healthy baby, therefor partners should trust the pg partner to make the right choice for the family..
wow this thread is a really good idea! DF definatey hasnt done ANY research i know of...
our 1st bub hasnt arrived yet but i am not sure of my DF's ability to be supportive when the time comes but he understands that all intervention is out of the question unless its an emergency, not sure how clear he is on the reasons why. he isnt very good at watching me in pain tho which is amusing ATM, being the clutz i am, so we will just have to see how he goes ;)
BUT his mum is a midwife (and works at the hospital where we are birthing) and agrees with my plan as does my mum who is very proud of her own homebirths and both of them will be at the hospital and most likely be present in some way knowing them! so i hav 2 other ppl to bat for me if needed :P but he will be fine :pray:
I remember when I was pg to Charlie, I was seriously concerned about the fact that my DH wasn't the least bit interested in birth choices, options or anything like that. He went to an antenatal class, and to my horror, 95% of the women there were having elective c/s so the class was mainly about pain options and c/s aftercare! I though OMG he's not going to support me in my vaginal birth!
I remember talking to the other mods at the time. I thought he would let me down when the time came, I wanted to hire a doula.
But he and I had a massive blue about it when I suggested it. He wanted to be my support person. But when I asked him to read up, he refused. He wanted to do it on his terms, and no, he didn't want a 'stranger' there usurping his place, even though that's NOT what a doula does. I was worried, and upset and I felt like he was being unreasonable, but didn't want to anger him further.
You know what though?
He was a an amazing support person. He deferred to me. He listened to what I had to say during labour. He agreed with my decisions, because he believed in me. He supported me every single step of the way and made me feel empowered.
And he was right, he didn't have to read and research to be that person. He just had be supportive in the way I needed him to be. And he was.
So ladies, don't assume that because someone doesn't know all the ins and outs of something, it means they can't be supportive. They can be.
And if they're not, no amount of reading and research may have changed that anyway.
:yeahthat::
And he was right, he didn't have to read and research to be that person. He just had be supportive in the way I needed him to be. And he was.
So ladies, don't assume that because someone doesn't know all the ins and outs of something, it means they can't be supportive. They can be.
And if they're not, no amount of reading and research may have changed that anyway.
:clap: Very well said Sushee!