I guess male to male is differnt because of the penetration that happens with male to male.
Female to female wouldn't be the same. But I agree why exclude one & not the other.
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I guess male to male is differnt because of the penetration that happens with male to male.
Female to female wouldn't be the same. But I agree why exclude one & not the other.
In that instance, could the milk from a lactating mother to a 12 month old, still give her milk, and that milk be then used for another 12 month old? because the reason her milk has changed is due to the changing nutritional needs of her child and would be best suited to another 12 month old?:
originally posted by FionaJill
However, all milk is valuable and we will accept donations from mothers’ breastfeeding infants up to 12 months old. Changes to milk composition after this time mean it may be unsuitable for the adequate nutrition of very ill or premature babies.
Yes Fiona, I have read the website, and even just looking at the pictures made me dry reach. And their doesnt seem to be enough information on there.:
Yes, I do think you are trying to start a debate, other wise you wouldnt continue to be posting on this thread.
I do not believe that ALL bugs/germs can be killed, and if the Donor of the milk, isnt getting a good balanced diet, then the baby wouldnt be getting all of its nutrients anyway. IMO.
Good luck to those who intend to use it. Its not for me, and i dont have anything against other mothers wanting to use it for their babies.
After all WE as MOTHERS have the right to choose how to feed and raise our Children, and shouldnt have to be scrutinized by others for using formula if that is what we choose to do.
A MOTHER knows what is best for their babies.
I'm sorry if you felt scrutinised Ellyboo, not my intention. I was just giving my opinion on the matter. Not intended to cause a debate, I think we can discuss something like this freely without it turning into a debate. IMO it hasn't yet. FJ is just offering more information and I'm glad for that I would rather be more educated than less, and like me I'm sure there are others out there who may not have read the website.
As I said sorry you feel this way but I can assure you I (and I'm sure others too) don't judge you for choosing formula. I formula fed Paris and I don't hate myself for it. Its what I did at the time and if I had to do it again I wouldn't change that at all.
*hugs*
Cailin
Ally, I am sorry feel this way, but I am not the only one posting in this thread. I posted the info fromthe website as there was questions being asked on this thread that the answers for are on the website.
I have obviously offended you & that was not my intention.
But by no means am I trying to start a debate. So far everyone has put there 2 cents in with out any conflict. It only your post that has the makings of a debate.
But Obvioulsy you don't agree with the idea of using a milk bank. Like you asid thats your choice, no one is having a go at you for that choice. My post that you quoted was as simple as it appears, I just don't understand that way of thinking.
If my baby was premature I would definitely be in favour of using it, if I didn't/couldn't get any milk of my own. But full term...I know it seems weird but if I couldn't/didn't want to BF I would use formula instead of donor milk. There would be the question of cost too, and the availability of the service. But if one of my sisters or a close friend was BF and had plenty to go around then I would probably use their EBM. I definitely wouldn't want my baby to be breastfed by anyone else though.
I wasnt implying that people on here were making me feel scrutinized, that is not the case at all. I was meaning that society in gerneral has a very negative vibe about mothers who bottle feed their babies. In my exp and many other mothers i know who have Formula fed thier babies, have been scruitinized and made to feel like $hit, with nasty sarcastic comments because of it, usually by nurses. I like the idea of Mothers getting good advice about bf, but not have it in their faces all the time.:
:
Sherie, I don't see why you couldn't but I think the main aim of the Milk bank is to provide milk for preterm babies.
I guess the costs involved with setting a milk bank up & the ongoing costs involved would mean they would be limited to what milk they could accept & for what age groups. While I am all for BFing beyond 12 months (still feeding a 2 yr old here) I think the resources for providing BM will probably always be aimed at preterm or sick babies.
Ally, the same issue was raised in regards to the artical posted awhile back titled "Suck on this".:
IMO this thread isn't the place to drag up the whole formula feeding mother cop it more then breastfeeding mothers. If you feel you need to add to that topic, track down the thread on that artical I mentioned.
Unfortunately Ellyboo, that is said for both. I have received nasty for both. And in my experience it was the medical staff who pushed formula my way. I was criticised in one hospital because a paed told me i had to go onto formula (and being a first time mum I listened). Then when I was happily breastfeeding my newborn son I was offered formula and laughed at when I proposed the idea of infant led feeding.
No matter what you do you will be criticised, so hold your head high and listen to your heart!
*hugs*
Cailin
Exactly!
Shannon, you are right, Damned if you do Damned if you dont. I totally empathise with you too.:
LOL at our bubs, sharing the same birthday! I wonder if they have the same temperament too, being Gemini's!
Fiona, I will post where i feel i need to, thankyou.
aaaanyway... back to the original question. I've been thinking about it..
First reaction: ICK.. no way!
2nd thought: Think it's a good idea.. but wouldn't trust the screening (thinking about the complications associated with blood etc.. screening just isn't good enough)
3rd thought: After reading about it being pasteurised etc etc.. I think I probably would consider it.. especially for a premmy.
BUT - I don't know. I'm very wary of it. Yes, we consume treated milk from other species.. but they don't have the same social factors that we do.. they don't carry 'human' diseases, they don't live the unhealthy lifestyles that we do! LOL.
I really don't know what I would do. I certainly would like to think I'd be able to accept it, rather than putting bub on formula.
Ideally it would be nice to see family & community being such a way that we could assist feeding each others babies where there is a need. Of course, that's just not gonna happen :( So I guess this bank with donated milk from strangers is the closest we're gonna get.
btw.. there'd have to be a LOT of milk donated to feed a baby so many times a day and for how long?? Must admit, I haven't read the article.. only what FJ has quoted.. but does it say anything about a time limit being imposed? Can you access this bank if you want your 2 yr old to still be on breastmilk? I'm just thinking of the supply/demand thing.. can the donations really keep up with demand?
OK.. sorry my post is a bit rambly.. I was typing as thoughts occured to me :) I will await further thoughts on this matter! Very interesting tho :)
LOL - ok.. I'm getting sidetracked here.. but.. as some of you know, we make our own handmade soaps.. and some soap recipes use milk. It was brought up on a soap site once about making breastmilk soap. ICK I here you say! LOL. I agree.. but gosh.. some of you sound very pro-human.. would you use it?
If it made my skin feel nice and soft, I wouldn't have a problem using soap made with BM.
Good point you raise about supply v demand for donated milk. You would need to have a lot of mums donating to keep it viable and that there were no shortages. Also, what would the cost of the service be or would for prem babies would it be Gov funded? Price could be a determining factor as to whether Mums use the service or not
I would use breastmilk soap. Sounds like a good idea! LOL When I have this baby I will pass some on to you & you can make me my very own batch of BM soaps!
Maybe we could specially make BM soap for newborns! Made with their own mother's milk! Would be very good for their skin.. you must admit! LOL.
I think it would be one of those things that would be a "special order" between mother & baby.
I was thinking while in the shower. I know this might be a bit silly, but I wonder what people would find more threating. An armed robbery with the weapon a syringe of blood or breastmilk? I know most of us here would say both as we all know the issues for both are the same as far as carrying disease. But put it to the general public I wonder what the response would be.
Ivana - maybe sell a kit that someone can use to make their own soap - if that makes sense?
Back to a point made a page or 2 ago - why some people think its OK to donate but not accept.
Well - I had oversupply with Jenna, and it was never ever a consideration that I would have to use another's milk. It just hasn't crossed my mind, and its hard to comprehend for me. So while I know I have heaps to donate to a very worhty cause, I haven't felt the need to take from it - Does that make sense?
And as for using it - if I had a preterm baby, and I was trying to establish feeding - I would take from the bank because it would be supplementing my efforts to get things going.
But if I had a term baby, and it wasn't working out - well long term I wouldn't be breastfeeding anyway, so it would seem silly to start taking from a source that is required for more needy people.
I hope that makes sense? There is a small ick factor for me - but no different to a blood transfusion. i would truly, truly hate to get a transfusion, it would be one of the worst things for me to contemplate (along with losing teeth), but I donate whenever I can.
Throughout jenna's first 6 months when I was exclusively breastfeeding, I would rather have had a wetnurse or a donation than give her formula. But that was just me.
FJ - First reaction to that is I would fear blood more than milk. But like you say, the risk is probably the same.
If anything.. the risk probably comes from the contaminated syringe rather than the contents! hehe.
Fi - hmmmm.. good idea! hehe. We could provide the other ingredients ready to go and you just add breastmilk! LOL. That would probably work better as a lotion than trying to get all and sundry understanding the saponification process. Breastmilk seems to be a cure-all for things.. squirt it up their noses when they have a cold.. smear it around dry/sore nipples.
Back on topic tho.. I'm guessing it would have to be restricted to needy bubs, such as premmy. But you'd have to be careful not to affect the mum's own supply. The same downward spiral of being unable to b/f due to comping might occur. If the aim is to fill a 'gap' between premmy bub being born and mum's milk coming in.. then the demand wouldn't be so huge.. because it's a matter of maybe maximum 2 weeks? Then she can express her own milk. As a replacement for being unable to establish your own breastfeeding.. that would be a lot of milk.
Fi thats a very good point, re taking it from other babies that might need it more! I hadn't thought of that...
As for the soap they have face creams made out of placenta... whats the dif? I think I'd rather put breastmilk on my skin that cows placenta...
*hugs*
Cailin
I can agree with that. I wouldn't use the milk from a bank for my older/healthy baby just for the sake of him getting BM. Not becuase I think its yuk, but I would feel guilty for taking it from a more needy baby. I feel the same about shopping in op shops. I figure those places are for people who need acsess to cheaper items. But then it was pointed out to me that buy shopping there I am also supporting the cause (places like St vinnies & the Salvo's). I still don't shop there on a regular basis, but I will often go in and browse & pick something up if I like something. I got a baby rocker/bouncer thingy & a really nice bassinet frilly skirt thing the other day.
As for supplementing your efforts. I think I would use it still but in conjuction with a supply line so while feeding at the breast baby would still be getting milk via a tube that runs along your breast to your nipple. So you still get that stimulation to help your supply along.
To true about the syringe being more a problem then its content.
I keep think of things I want to post after I post....
I think when it comes down to it. There are considerations to take in for everything. Medications that have side effects, Blood/organ transfusions, donated breastmilk. If it was put to me that my baby would have x% chance of doing well on donated BM compared to x% if formula is used then even if I did have a ick issue about it, I will still choose what was going to be best.
Yup.. my eyes have been opened WIDE about stuff that goes into skin products. It's quite alarming! Cosmetics are probably the worst. But cleansers and soaps are just chemical ****tails and are no good for your skin.:
face creams made out of placenta
ETA: I wonder what dirty tactics Nestle would have against this milk bank? And imagine if the milk made it to supermarket shelves! LOL. Woohoo! down with Nestle!
Not at all fletch! I think its only human to question something, its why we research in the first place. I was just trying to offer a different perspective, if you still feel irked by it there's nothing I can do about that. Thats what makes us human is that we are all different! Its like all things I am one of those people that can talk about all sorts of gross stuff whilst eating whereas I have a friend that if she sees spit on the sidewalk starts to gag.
This was mearly meant as a discussion no more no less. Not attacking (IMO we've been nice, and you know what I'm like about nice... did you read my recent post?) just questioning or offering different ideas.
We can still question others and ourselves and be understanding at the same time, well I know I can!
I'm going to go find a white flag ;) J/K...
You know I mean well right?
*hugs*
Cailin
I dont' think it's scare tactics Fletch. I think people were just saying they couldn't understand the aversion to human products when we so readily accept other animal products.
I wouldn't donate to the bank either.. but that's just my laziness. I've expressed a total of 3 bottles for my own son! let alone someone elses! I can't even get motivated to stock up my own bank in the freezer. hehe.
Fletch - the semen thing was in reference to being induced. Not formula. It was just used as an example of how some people will happily use some products that are derived from a different species (in this case, pig) but won't go near products made from humans.
- Kelly:
the prostaglandins they used to use for inductions come from.... take a guess... it's not human But it is semen. Think of what animal is said to be a close match to humans
Fletchy darling - I think the monkey semen was actually pig semen products used as the induction gel. ;) I'm pretty sure that formula is just powdered cows milk with some extra bits added in. No monkey bits.
Sorry - I am having a little laugh here about harvesting monkey semen. How the hell would that work!! ROTFLMAO!!!!!Seriously - I am nearly peeing my pants!!!!
As I have said a number of times in the past- we are very lucky as a society that we dont have one choice, mums are given heaps of choices that hopefully work for them - so please dont think anyone is having a go.
I'm sure in some countries that are less lucky than ourselves you cant just go and buy a tin of formula off the shelf for basically 1hrs pay. And the choices that formula feeding mums have is astounding. Imagine if you couldn't feed, were formula feeding and your baby was having negative reactions to that - and there was only one type of formula to try.
We are all very lucky.
Yep I think the worst thing about it is thinking about the poor person who's job it is to collect it :cryinglaugh:
PMSL @ harvesting Monkey Semen....
One of the cruelest and grossest things I've ever seen is doing that to a lion... was on some discovery channel I was grossed out shocked and intrigued all at the same time... They used some electrified probe that went up the lions butt and the shocks would cause it to well you know...
Oh gosh I'm going to regret sharing that i know...
*runs away and hides*
*hugs*
Cailin
Brings new light to the saying "Monkey see, monkey do".
I just keep picturing women lined up like cows at a dairy farm.. attached to milking machines!
To be a donator - it would take a great deal of time. I hope they find an efficient way to do it. Mind you.. 200mls would go a long way with a premmy. So in terms of expressing for a needy bub, it probably isn't THAT much effort to support a premmy for a couple of weeks.
Crikey - just saw all your posts about extracting semen!! LOL! and Cailin - yes.. you run and hide girl! LOL.
Think about all the milk that gets wasted in breastpads in the early days from overflow! I was expressing so Seth could latch and it would take 50mls each side before he could get hold. And my pads would be soaked I went through boxes in a week... I still use them and he's 6mths old! I easily expressed 200mls a day for the first few weeks just to take the edge off.
Even if people only did it during their stay in hospital I think it would all add up!
*hugs*
Cailin
Ooo I hope I have a supply like that next time, Cailin!
I stopped leaking very quickly and I never, ever felt so full that I had to express first :(
I also had tonnes of milk. I started expressing for Jack when he started day care at 7 months and I always got so much more than I needed. Once he self-weaned (14 months) I went through the freezer at home and the one at day care and threw out so much frozen EBM that I could have fed someone else's baby for a year LOL. Day care must have been glad to get their freezer back! I would also donate as I'd rather someone else benefit than have extra milk to go waste.
I would also use donated EBM for a premmie. My first choice would be to use milk from a friend if available, but I would use a bank otherwise.
I'm not taking sides or defending anything but I think the words used can sometimes come across as an attack while it looks like it is not one... not to point the finger because I don't mean that, but if someone said to you that something you would do repulses them, I think it would make them feel a need to defend themselves. Again not justifying anyone or anything, but the words we choose do effect the way in which people will respond. It's human nature and with the combined effect of the internet (somewhat anonymous) we don't hold back or stop and think about it as much as we would with a friend or in person. Also I noticed the tune of the conversation changed when the information was posted from the hospital website, so I don't think many actually read the website to see that it does have safety processes in place etc. We can still like it or not, but we can choose better words ;)
Fletch I am sorry that my question has made you feel this way. I honestly only question other peoples opinions to get a better idea of things.
I can't remember exactly who said it but a few pages back it was pointed outthat the reason many may be put off by the idea of using human milk is because those of a different species don't carry the same human diseases. That makes sence to me.
Personally I don't think anyone is being pushy, I don't think anyone has posted anything to try & convince those who are agaisnt to come join those who are for. I think its just simply been a case of people try to shed some light on the issues raised.
Yup.. I still haven't read it :o But as soon as I read the quotes from it, my perspective changed.. as I said in my original post about my 1st, 2nd & 3rd thoughts on the matter.:
Also I noticed the tune of the conversation changed when the information was posted from the hospital website, so I don't think many actually read the website to see that it does have safety processes in place etc. We can still like it or not, but we can choose better words
I think there is a definite yuk factor to it.. some people won't share straws in a drink.. let alone feeding your baby with someone elses milk. But if safety processes are in place, I think it's definitely worth consideration to get past that yuk factor.. because ultimately it's going to be to the benefit of the little bubs.
Oh - I'll also add.. at our antenatal class, in our group discussions.. we were told to list the good things about breastfeeding.. and DH said "coz it tastes yum".. and I can't tell you the looks of revulsion on everyone's faces at the thought of tasting the breastmilk. Poor DH shrunk into his seat.. he had every intention of tasting the breastmilk coz he'd heard it was sweet! LOL. So some people really are revulsed by the thought of someone elses milk - even their own partners!
Neil was scared of mine, Ivana. I would often threaten to squirt him and he'd run away!
This was despite one of his very good mates encouraging him to have a taste. He would say, "Get her to eat some milo and it'll taste like a chocolate milkshake!!". LOL
OMG!!! Are you sure!!! I would really appreciate it if you could give me your source for this and/or tell me where I can find more info. Are there non-pig alternatives? This is huge issue for Jewish and Muslim women. Is it just the gels ? Sorry for hijacking the thread.:
Anyway...... I was thinking about the whole issue of EBM v another woman breastfeeding. to start with I was thinking I couldn't cope with seeing another woman breastfeeding my baby because its such an intimate and cozy time and because of the bond between a breastfeeding mum and her baby but then I thought about it a bit more and I thought that this POV is mainly about my needs - what about my baby's needs? Why should I deny my baby that coziness and cuddleyness? In the long term or even the short term its not going to damage the bond I have with my baby. Then again, I have to say that I would never let any of my ILs breastfeed my baby.
In Kells OP about that, she says that it use to be used. Still be interested to know the reply from Kelly.
ah..... so it does - do they use artificial stuff now?
oh thats interesting Chloe I hadn't thought of it that way as far as cultural information goes.
OTT FJ have you ever had to help with AI on the job? I tell you extracting semen from a dog is pretty embarrassing stuff...