Why we shouldn't use the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" *long*

[onthefly]

well, yes, that's a fair point. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that.
However, calling people a bunch of fascists isn't exactly a honey-laden approach.

[MantaRay]

Out of curiosity, where are these lactivists that are so "fascist like" that they put people off? Seriously, who has ever met one? I know lots of supporters of bfing and supporters of mums, but I honestly can't say that I've ever met anyone that is off-putting, pushy, critical, nasty or anything else that would warrant comparisons with genocidal maniacs. So who has? Or is this just the perception of women who are in a vulnerable place and are hearing what they are expecting to hear rather than what is being said?

[luna moth]

Out of curiosity, where are these lactivists that are so "fascist like" that they put people off? Seriously, who has ever met one? I know lots of supporters of bfing and supporters of mums, but I honestly can't say that I've ever met anyone that is off-putting, pushy, critical, nasty or anything else that would warrant comparisons with genocidal maniacs. So who has? Or is this just the perception of women who are in a vulnerable place and are hearing what they are expecting to hear rather than what is being said?

I have.

But it is someone I know quite well, and I wonder whether she is only like that with me. When I first met her she was the most supportive person I ever encountered.

But otherwise, no. Maybe you're right.

[PumpkinZulu]

Also, why is lactivist such a dirty word? I consider myself a lactivist, and I'm certainly not rude, pushy or a homicidal maniac. I just support breastfeeding over other means of feeding a baby when possible

[Sagres]

No, I have never met anyone I would consider comparable to a genocidal maniac, never said I had. But I have come across many people who condemn and criticise some one for formula feeding instead of taking the time to understand how and why and offer support and assistance. Many in real life and many many many online.
My point is there are many women who struggle with BFing and are wavering and would really be fit from support and assistance and guidance but instead they get a lot of very unsupportive messages about how evil formula and formula companies are, how it is unnatural blah blah blah. What is going to help more women who are at the end of their rope, with a baby screaming at 3am, support and practical advice of how to get through the hurdle or condemnation? Honey or vinegar?
But again, it really depends if your agenda is supporting women or if your agenda is to push lactivism, 2 very different things.

[PumpkinZulu]

See Sagres, I have been the one offering advice, and I have been the one desperately needing it, being distraught at 3am having come up against every breastfeeding hurdle there is. I have found, as the advice giver, that there are some women who already have the idea of formula in their head, and when you offer gentle breastfeeding advice (certainly not pushy), the advice has been rejected and condemned because I wasn't saying something like "don't worry, if it comes to it just give a bottle if you have to, it's not that bad, it's just as good, at least they're being fed" etc. and that's what a lot of women want to hear. Trying to help a woman continue breastfeeding through difficult patches isn't extremist, and it's not badgering. I could not, in all good conscience, say to a mother asking for advice for breastfeeding issues that a bottle of ABM is just as good, because we all know that it isn't and that that's just not true. But a lot of women will take offence to a statement like that, no matter how honeyed up it is. Some people already know what they want to hear, and not hearing it is why so many normal, level headed and diplomatic lactivists ( like myself) get unfairly labeled as 'nazis'. It's incredibly undermining to breastfeeding.

[Sagres]

Also, why is lactivist such a dirty word? I consider myself a lactivist, and I'm certainly not rude, pushy or a homicidal maniac. I just support breastfeeding over other means of feeding a baby when possible

But isn't that the parallel drawn in the original text - a lot of very reasonable Germans and a few very bad seeds that have tainted that country. A lot of very reasonable activists and a few extreme seeds that are giving the group a bad name. Isn't it a kind of warning - keep things in check so you don't give a good cause a bad name?

[Sagres]

See Sagres, I have been the one offering advice, and I have been the one desperately needing it, being distraught at 3am having come up against every breastfeeding hurdle there is. I have found, as the advice giver, that there are some women who already have the idea of formula in their head, and when you offer gentle breastfeeding advice (certainly not pushy), the advice has been rejected and condemned because I wasn't saying something like "don't worry, if it comes to it just give a bottle if you have to, it's not that bad, it's just as good, at least they're being fed" etc. and that's what a lot of women want to hear. Trying to help a woman continue breastfeeding through difficult patches isn't extremist, and it's not badgering. I could not, in all good conscience, say to a mother asking for advice for breastfeeding issues that a bottle of ABM is just as good, because we all know that it isn't and that that's just not true. But a lot of women will take offence to a statement like that, no matter how honeyed up it is. Some people already know what they want to hear, and not hearing it is why so many normal, level headed and diplomatic lactivists ( like myself) get unfairly labeled as 'nazis'. It's incredibly undermining to breastfeeding.

See I think we are kind of arguing the same point and kinda agreeing Yes very undermining, so lets make sure we don't provide any ammunition to add fuel to that. And I don't mean I think you personally are adding fuel (I have no idea about what you do) but just as a general argument, be careful how you proceed to avoid alienating people who you could otherwise help.

But on the concept of women who seek advice but already know what they want the answer to be - yes, totally agree, I have come across many and tried to help many and like you, I feel frustrated that the are asking for advice but not being open to all answers. But really, if that is the path they are choosing, why is that a problem to me? Why should I take offense to some one choosing a different path to me? I make decisions for my kids, she makes decision for her kids, don't we all have that freedom? I am happy to help the women who want help with BF (because that is what I know and can help with) but if some one doesn't want that help it's no skin off my nose.

On a different tangent, I have a practical example which I myself have been in and I wonder how you would approach this. I assure you I know many women who have been in this same position. And to be clear I am really not having a go at you, I thrive on healthy debates that I can learn from

After having no supply issues with DD1 (well not until closer to 12 months) I have had constant supply issues with DD2. So yes the screaming baby at 3am scenario and all that. When in hospital my DD2 was starving. being BFed continuously for hours on end and still screaming until she was hoarse due to hunger, and not putting on weight. The first LC I had at that 3am meltdown refused my request for formula and tried to express from me, which obviously did nothing as I'd been feeding for hours on end and the tank was empty Next LC drew up a plan for me to feed, then top up with formula, then express for every feed. Had I just gone with the 'no formula because it is inferior' plan I would have eventually been forced to full time FF because she was not putting on any weight and would grow too tired to feed (we were already walking that tightrope, it was a real possibility). But due to the plan of BF/FF/express for every feed I was able to get my supply to come to the table and and once it did we were off and racing and still going 6.5 months later. Albeit with more supply issues, which again I have used the BF/FF/express path to get over the hurdle, then go back to exclusive BFing. But had I refused any formula I would have got us into a hole that we couldn't get out of and been forced to go full time FF to keep her from starving. So formula definitely was not my first choice (never would be) but if it helped me get back to exclusive BFing then I was all for it.

Sorry, I kind of gave the example then gave my version of the answer! So what advice do you give to the 'me' in this example at 3am?

[PumpkinZulu]

I don't think I'm super qualified to give BF advice I do see how we're agreeing though

The only thing I would have done as 3am you is source donated milk instead of ABM. That's what I'm currently doing, as my supply has dropped during this pregnancy, and my DD is still too young IMO to wean. But I certainly don't look negatively on your situation, donated milk is hard to find and can be a time consuming search to find a good 'fit' donor wise, and more effort that buying formula.

I totally agree with you, I don't think it should bother anyone else to the point of attacking or degrading how other women feed their kids. It certainly doesn't me. What *does* bother me is this culture of perpetuating mistruths about breastfeeding, like "I couldn't breastfeed" when the actual issue was not the physical not being able to breastfeed, but lack of support, or education. Too many women say the couldn't breastfeed when actually, they could have, with more education or information or support. Not everyone, but a lot more. Having a huge number of women saying they simply 'couldn't do something just makes that thing seem way too uncontainable and difficult.

[Smoke Jaguar]

What a load of rubbish. Not the first part, just the bit where breastfeeding was adding to the history revision lesson.
Anyone who sledge Gabrielle Palmer in this way (or the Sears, for that matter) has CLEARLY not read her material, especially when they try to make out that she is not a feminist and seeks to disempower men from the process of rearing children.
Someone still needs to sort out their own personal issues and debrief, before making such imbalanced and disturbing dissertations.
Oooh, yeah, the formula company bosses would just love this kind of tripe, cos there are people who would be fooled into thinking it actually has something of substance to offer!