Would you use someone else's EBM??

[Nelle]

I love the idea of milk banks, I think it's so exciting that the Mercy are starting one up! Fantastic.

I'd definitely use EBM from a milk bank, or a friend/family member I could trust in terms of being disease free and having a fairly healthy lifestyle. And I'd definitely donate it if I was in the position to do so.

In terms of feeding at another's breast, it's something I'd be okay with in a rare situation, if I've had to leave my baby with someone and that was the easiest way to feed my baby, or vice versa. Simply because I know the breastfeeding bond to be so powerful and special.

[Smoke Jaguar]

This is where the formula companies get their foothold in our society (as opposed to less developed countries where their foothold comes from promoting artificial milk as a 'superior' option because they believe it makes their babies smarter than human milk ) - in the fragmentation of our communities where mothers DON'T have networks to tap into and come to believe that someone else's milk will be diseased or something. When you're in a network, the nature of it is that you know the people in it and some idea of their lifestyles. We have suspicions of people when we don't know them very well and have very little to do with them. Wetnurses were and are women in the community very well known to other women, they weren't found in the classifieds.
Salma Hayek's Mexican grandmother would have been known to her community when she fed other people's babies. My mum speaks of women in her town (it was like a repressed memory and first came out when I fed my niece, when my sister took longer out on her boat with my dad than anticipated and her DD got hungry!) who fed other people's babies and they were known for providing this service...for free!! Yet even these communities nowadays are experiencing westernisation (US culture has been permeating for a while and now they have these hideous free trade agreements that mean corporates bring their capitalist, individualist culture and advertising with them) and the fragmentation that turns women inwards and more vulnerable to the idea that formula is more trustworthy than someone else's milk (or, sadly, that formula is more trustworthy than BM at all, even when there is nothing wrong with their ability to lactate except their new prejudices about modern society etc). I'm using Central America and Mexico as examples because until increased recent westernisation, they weren't even a dairy-reliant culture and would never have fed cow's milk or cow milk-based substances to their children or themselves the way they do now when there are lactation issues. This also seems to apply to Asian societies - milk is a big allergen because of the millenia of non-dairy diets being suddenly changed by western milk-obsessions, and now they are increasingly relying on it as standard, let alone in times of dire need for the babies' health.
Anyway, just an example of how breastfeeding and attitudes about EBM IS political (small 'p' ), whether you choose to see it or not - in our society, breastfeeding and feeding EBM largely is not just something that happens, it's occurence for an individual depends on a whole series and combination of events, exposures and situations before it's even your turn to 'make the choice' - and affects that 'choice', ultimately.
This thread has discussed the merits of EBM when formula is available, and that's what I've responded to here and what I've limited my discussion to. I'm not going to get drawn into FF under non-supply/non-special needs conditions, or outside of discussion about formula companies exploiting underdeveloped societies with their advertising.
And I do agree, EBM is no substitute for feeding from the breast - that physical stimulation is vital for specific neural stimulation in the brain that doesn't occur in bottle-fed babies (EBM or AM). It IS the next best thing, though, if you're in a jam and have access to it

[Phteven]

it seesm like I'd have an even easier time than most of you because I wouldn't mind taking milk from someone who smoked. I smoked most of the time I was feeding ds (bar the first two weeks). So as long as I knew they had a comparative habit to mine- less than 10 a day- and waited at least an hour after smoking before expressing, it wouldn't bother me. As others have pointed out, comparative lifestyle factors would be the key. Breastmilk is still better than formula, smoker or not (in my eyes, anyway).

I'm not a smoker but I would prefer EBM from a smoker to formula - even if it's not ideal it's still going to be easier for an immature gut to digest than formula. With all the chemicals used for dairy farming (in the cow's food as well as on the cow itself) who's to say that cow's milk that formula is made from doesn't have even nastier chemicals in it.

[Janie]

Brontide, your reasons were clear in your first post I understood what you were saying about premmies needing it more than term bubbas. I was more trying to understand those who were implying that they would give it to their baby if it was prem and needed complementary feeds, but not to their full term bub if it needed comps. IHTMS!

That's a good point you raise BG, about the stimulation needed to help a mother's milk come in. But clearly (as you know ) there are many other situations where a term bubba might need donated EBM.

I would be surprised (although I don't know for sure) if there was that much thought given to how and when wet nurses fed babies. It was probably just 'done' IYKWIM?

[Bathsheba]

Gotta spread the love again Maya

And also, if given the choice, especially over the long term, I also would choose EBM from a smoker than long-term artifical milk. I am not a smoker and really dislike the smell of smoke but my mis-trust of artifical milk is that strong.

[Janie]

I'm not a smoker but I would prefer EBM from a smoker to formula - even if it's not ideal it's still going to be easier for an immature gut to digest than formula. With all the chemicals used for dairy farming (in the cow's food as well as on the cow itself) who's to say that cow's milk that formula is made from doesn't have even nastier chemicals in it.

I was going to say that almost word for word in my previous post but I forgot LOL.

[EllaElla]

My son was Premi and I would have done anything to get him breast milk. I never had to as my constant expressing in hospital and use of assistance drugs gave me what little he needed in the beginning (I was very lucky in that sense).

I have a great supply now, a freezer stock and I would donate myself now.

[Jennifer13]

I would almost go so far as to say that I would trust the non-'treated' ebm from any woman above what you can buy from a company, whose processes, equipment and procedures are not open for public inspection and criticism. Half of the time you have no idea how many links in the supply chain have brought the cows' milk to the tin you took it home in. Not to mention what it is stored in, how it changes when it is made up, etc, etc.

Because there is such a shortage in the supply of ebm from milk banks at the moment it is offered to sick and premmie babies first, but wouldn't it be wonderful if by the time our daughters were having this discussion there was enough for every mother who couldn't bf her baby herself to have this option available? I sincerely hope the times are changing!

[Bathsheba]

How true Jennifer: I would dearly love to hear that milk banks have become so successful that there is enough for every mother that can't BF her baby and that artifical milk is a thing of the past and infact banned.

[Inanna]

I agree that it would be wonderful in the future Jen and Bath...

I too have to spread the love around Mayaness...

Just a thought... Wouldn't it be wonderful if communities understood the necessity of breast milk so much that milk banks were not needed... Wild idea I know! But I have by the nature of my personality and my strong community beliefs forged strong, loving and supportive relationships with other women. As said before sharing milk was not an issue... I haven't time to read back but someone mentioned that it wouldn't be feasible to ask a milk donor to abstain from certain foods.. I have to say to that that I have done this - it to me is not a biggy. A baby needs milk - I don't have cuppas whilst supplying my milk... I don't have dairy...

This (at the risk of getting a little off target) brings up for me the need for us to see that we are all in this together. We are a community - a village. What an amazing world if we just knew that there were all of these other women (and men/families) to lean upon when it's tough. Having a premature baby is absolutely gut wrenchingly tough. Boobs supply milk on demand - it's not really hard to express after each feed for a baby in need.

I know that this isn't about prems - but I cannot let the opportunity pass to say that premature babies need breastmilk - it is incredibly important. I put off allowing my baby to fed formula until I could feed her breastmilk (either mine or someone elses). If you are pregnant you need to be aware of the gift breastmilk is to a prem. It matters not much what that mother has eaten - it is still better. (of course let's assume the donor is not drinking a scotch with every meal and rolling hooters at lunchtime ). Of course medications also need to be looked at too.

Breastmilk is a bodily fluid like no other. It is milk for babies - as such it is complete, beautiful and alive. Share it around, make contact with other mothers in your community and offer your milk if it's needed. It is such a beautiful gift.

We need to get out of our houses, yards and create villages. In a village my boobs ar eyour babies boobs - my stash of ebm in the freezer is to be shared amongst those that are struggling to feed for whatever reason...

Villages are imperative. Necessary.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Flowerchild, I would actually trust you if you said you would abstain for me! But I have had friends offer to help with milk while drinking a 2L bottle of cola all by herself - and admit she wouldn't refrain even though just one little square of chocolate set DS off and I couldn't even have a normal coffee. Which is why I wouldn't trust the general populance.

I must admit that DS was probably given formula before I was given him and I was told that if he didn't have formula they'd take him away, against my wishes, and give it to him anyway (which is why I think they did it in the first instance, that and a newborn babe not being hungry for 24 hours is a bit unusual, even if his mother had drugs that stopped him breathing), so I'd not really see the difference between formula and EBM - it would still be me being told "you're not good enough for a baby you think looks healthy and happy so we have to take over, incompetent woman."

Maybe nicer midwives would bypass this problem altogether? For me, at any rate.

[Trillian]

I think it would be a sad day when a woman was 'forced', due to the banning of abm (because honestly, in your perfect world there would be no abm would there?), to use another woman's milk if she didn't want to. I think a lot of the bigger issues are being missed here that extend further than simply a choice between ebm and abm - would you force a mother who was a devout Jehovah's Witness to use someone elses' body fluid? Or would you force anyone to use it who had concerns, religous or otherwise to use it? That's something to consider when tossing about Utopian fantasies of a world with no formula kwim?

I think milk banks have their place, although I do have to question the sterility of it Barb (a few pages back) as once it leaves the breast it is no longer sterile, so it isn't a given that what you are getting is of a good enough quality to guarantee the babe does not get sick from it kwim? Once something has to go through a process, there is a risk of failure of those processes and I would hate to think that there could be a nation-wide recall of breast milk that was sullied during production. This is all theorising of course, but I like to think outside the square when it comes to stuff like this and think of all possibilities. If it were ever to reach commercial proportions then I don't know how it could be 1 sustained in the long term - you are talking loads of women here expressing more than they would ever need to cope with the apparent growing demand for it, and 2 how will these women be compensated for it? Will they receive a financial incentive to donate milk and be a regular provider of milk for milk banks and will they eventually be exploited for it like the dairy industry has been of recent times? Its not that much of a leap to link the two as they are providing the same product.

I found it interesting to read in the Daily tele on Tuesday about 'black market milk' where women who are choosing not to try to bf are searching high and low to find women that can provide the bm for them. Now is this *right*? There is just something intrinsically wrong with a woman who can't be bothered trying to bf her own baby herself from birth, but yet has the common sense to know that breast milk is the best nourishment for her child, so she would happily part with her money to ensure that the child gets it. And is it right for a woman to have to go to the effort to keep a plentiful supply and take time to express and store milk for someone who simply couldn't be bothered? It just wouldnt sit right with me.

[Inanna]

Rosehip - I don't get angry often - actually rarely and reading your post I felt angry. I pictured you all sore and with the Aura of birth and being treated with such inhumanity. I am so sorry that a fellow health care provider did this. It is wrong. There is no right in how your Liebling was given food not approved by you - it's wrong.

I don't liken milk banks to the dairy industry Trill - but I did chuckle out loud at the likeness I guess.

I liken milk banks to blood banks - we happily trot along to donate 3 bags of 0+ 'cos after all we have plenty of blood and what we don't replenishes give it 24hours... Nobody does it for financial gain - we do it as an act of kindness and compassion. I think for me that' swhat I hope to get across here. That sharing my breastmilk is an act of simple kindness - much like donating blood - without the sharp *****!

Milk remains sterile provided it is expressed into a sterile container. It is at risk of contamination - absolutely but by it's vibrant nature it's a pretty sure bet to be just a okay - so long as it is expressed into clean containers and refrigerated / frozen.

I actually personally like the Utopian outlook - it's aiming high and for me that is important. I don't think it's out there to think that communities of women will gather to help their 'Sister" feed her baby. It's not as I have such a community and know of many who do - especially homebirth communities. Interestingly I got a phone call just this afternoon (gotta love synchronicity) to help a mothrer at our school needing milk. She is sick in hospital and the baby needs to be put to the breast. I couldn't help but a text just confirmed someone with the right goods has come forward.

It needs to come out of the closet. Breast milk is a bodily fluid but it is not like my saliva or my mucous. It is a living gold for human babies/children. JW's I am almost certain would not have an issue with sharing BM - their rules are blood products as blood is sacred... I'd be surprised if that was against their faith - but of course I may be wrong.

Either way - I hope that nobody has suggested that EBM should be forced on a baby - just that it not be so outrageous a thought or option.

I really love that this thread has helped to have some of these issues debunked and discussed and looked at from different perspectives...

I love that we do that here on BB - we all come at the world from differing angles - and I fully accept that my angle is often Utopian!

[Jennifer13]

I don't know of any group who for religious reasons cannot use the ebm of another mother. JWs are certainly not in this category - you're right FC, it's only blood and blood products. But I could be wrong about other groups!

[Olive]

i thought breast milk was a blood product

ETA by the way deb i love your post!

[Inanna]

A blood product is defined as being from a venous or arterial vessel... No it is not a blood product. It is a bodily fluid... Just like your wee or your snot or your cm... Sorry but wanted to draw a picture. It is a rather graphic pictuew...

ETA: Definition of Blood

Blood: The familiar red fluid in the body that contains white and red blood cells, platelets, proteins, and other elements. The blood is transported throughout the body by the circulatory system. Blood functions in two directions: arterial and venous. Arterial blood is the means by which oxygen and nutrients are transported to tissues while venous blood is the means by which carbon dioxide and metabolic by-products are transported to the lungs and kidneys, respectively, for removal from the body.

[Trillian]

I'm only supposing that there could be - I don't claim to know the ins and outs of every religion, but it is something to consider. I say forced upon, because a page or two back, there were calls for abm to be made illegal, now wouldn't that then *force* you to use ebm, simply because you had no other choice?

Not everyone has the luxury of being surrounded by a village/family that can give BM if you need it, so there will always be a need for abm to some extent. I totally get that you give it because you have it to give, but how long before it is commercialised? Because it will happen. ABM was initially introduced as a last resort option and look at how ingrained it has become. Personally I would think it would be morally wrong to not give some sort of compensation to women who would give ebm at a commercial level. It wont be long before someone starts to cash in on it and why should the source of it miss out? It is one thing to donate to a milk bank for the purpose of using it for prem and ill babies, but if this is a trend that catches on and you have more and more women wanting bm for their babes, then it is only fair and right that the ones providing it in the first place get something for the time it takes to do it.

[Inanna]

In trying to find the psot wanting abm banned I came across a post suggesting that we don't question what the cows eat. My answer would be that we SHOULD! I do! I suppose in a way that's what a lot of this discussion is about. That we need to think about what we put in ours and our children's mouths... Where it comes from - even the milk we putin our tea comes from a girl in the paddock that may or may not be dipped in poisons thus excreting it into her milk, injected with antibiotics that may or may not be excreted into her milk, fed feed that has been sprayed etc et. All of that goes into formula AND every day cows milk.

I agree Trill that we all don't have a village - another point - to gently encourage the formation of a village of like minded folk to help you raise your families.

They don't come from luck - they come from intention - just as they did in our grandmothers/great mothers days... WE can have it again...