bubba screaming and pulling off while feeding ... wail!
hi there,
I work full time, and bubba is exclusively breastfed - usually BF twice, EBM three times a day, and then usually BF 4 or all 5 feeds on the weekends.
DS has taken to sucking really well for a couple of minutes per side, but then sucking a few times, and then arching back or looking away and screaming, before latching on again, and repeating the process, leaving both him and me rather distressed.
I've also recently been in hospital for surgery, and while I asked about every single drug they gave me, to make sure it was lactation-safe, I noticed afterwards that my milk looks much thinner, and is a different colour (and so might taste or fill darling bubba differently). I asked one of the nurses about it, and she said "well just give him formula then." WAIL!
I want to keep BF exclusively for at least another 2 months, but this is doing my head in, and makes me want to just give up, and feed him each side until he startes pulling off, and pumping the rest and just giving it to him in a bottle ...
But I know that usually, he drinks a lot more than I pump, so he wouldn't end up getting nearly enough.
Is this nipple confusion? Reflux? Wind? Something else?
OMG Peanutter - how is it that we haven't come across each other before? My DD is just 4 months old (tomorrow!) and I am also working full time and doing the BF/EBM thing. Earlier this week and last weekend, I had the exact same problem as you. One of the ladies on here told me not to force the feed so I just swapped sides and she settled for a little while on that side. The feeds were SO MUCH faster though so I think it's just her becoming more efficient. It has pretty much settled down again now but she is still coming off the breast really strangely and wide wide awake so I think it's just her way of saying "I've had enough now thanks Mum." I also worried about nipple confusion but was told that if that was going to happen, it would have most likely happened by now. Btw - I was also burping her when she did this and 99% of the time I would get a burp out.
Hi peanutter,
Your baby is of a certain age. It's an age when they start to get very interested in the world around them and distracted at feed times. The behaviour you describe is quite typical of this phase, unfortunately.
It may well be that he is getting what he needs in those few short minutes when he feeds well. If he wants to get off, let him go.
My DS went from looooong feeds to very short ones almost over night at this age. It stressed me out and I kept trying to force him to feed. He then started to refuse the breast.
I found that feeding him in a quiet darkened room helped a bit. But the biggest thing that helped was relaxing and just letting him set the pace.
Your milk is fine - trust your breasts to get it right. Your baby also knows what he needs - he's being a bit difficult at the moment, but he won't actually starve himself. Keep an eye on his nappies if you're at all worried about his intake. (has he started waking for mroe feeds at night by any chance, that's quite common at this age also - joy!)
Remember you can always call the ABA for advice & support too - they will actually try to help you rather than just telling you to grab some formula 1800-686-2-686
Let yourself get over the surgery. You have both had a tough time. He didn't know why you were suddenly not there at nights. It's likely that consciously or unconsciously you didn't feed/express much while you were sick. When your breasts are relatively fuller there will be relatively less fat in your milk, and your milk may look paler/bluish - it's all good though. You just need to spend some time together - feed frequently, cuddle often - it will all fall back into place. You are doing a great job
strangerlk - how bizarre! my little man was only born the week before your little girl ... makes sense that they're going through a similar phase, and we're having similar experiences. Thanks so much for sharing. I've been ready to burst into tears ... I'm not happy that you've had a similar issue, but if you're doing ok and your daughter is too, then it's reassuring that "this too shall pass" ...
barb - I did my very best. I bf Josh as soon as I was back on the ward in the hospital, and then generally bf or expressed 5 times per day (as per usual) - but sometimes I only got 50 mls when I'd normally get 140 - 200 sadly, maybe it wasn't enough. I did however have a lot (over 1L) frozen EBM at home, in case something like that happened, so we haven't needed to use formula, yet, which I'm very happy about.
I'm hoping that if it's just like you and the other ladies think, and Joshua is upset or drinking more efficiently, my milk supply will return in no time, and we'll be able to keep up with his needs.
The MHCN has suggested that I go on Metilliom (sp?) to increase supply... A friend has suggested Fenugreek and lots of water... I'm planning on starting with lots of lean meat and vegies to build my strength, supplies and therefore my milk to a better quality, and then go from there.
The most recent feed, I just let him go as long as he liked, and because it was a dream feed, he didn't get to his arching and screaming phase ... but because it was the last feed for the night, he only had one side (I offered the better side first) and I pumped the other side ... only got 60ml, but it's 60mls more than we had before ...
I wonder if he's just getting frustrated that the milk slows down from the breast at the end of a feed, whereas with a bottle during the day, with EBM, it comes at an even pace?
Fenugreek works really well for me, I'd give that a go for sure. And if you think he isn't staying on long enough to get your supply back up, then it might be worth pumping after a feed, even if you aren't getting much up. It will just give your breasts that extra stimulation. And, frustratingly, night feeding is great for building supply back up, and getting the baby feeding well when they are sleepy and less likely to fiddle around and be difficult. Not much fun when you are working full time though, is it? Ask me how I know! LOL.
How are things going now Peanutter? Hopefully your LO is feeding a bit better and helping your supply increase. I was told by a LC that if you get up and express between 12 - 5am, this is prime supply increasing time. I know you are really busy right not but I'd love a chance to hear how you are doing the expressing thing with work.......I struggled badly at first but have got the hang of it now. A massive internet hug and my hearty congratulations on your strong desire to keep up your supply and BF - it's not easy and your attitude is inspiring.
bubba has been a bit better. not totally, but improved. He's feeding more frequently, which might be because he's getting less, or might be because he is upset from the hospital shenanigans, or might just be because he's going through a growth spurt ... no idea which ! Or something else.
Virtual hug right back at you
Expressing between midnight and 5am ... ugh ... mega ugh ... ! Might have to consider it, though.
Expressing at work is going ok. I aim to pump around 11am and 3pm, and it takes about 30 minutes to pump, plus 5 minutes to clean my gear. Work has been pretty good about it. I don't take a separate lunch break, and if I have to work late, I pump again around 6pm.
The main problem I find is that each pump I tend to get less out. While if I bf he assumedly gets around 200 - 250mls (based on him being satisfied, and what satisfies him from a bottle) when I pump, I get between 120 - 240mls. No evident rhyme or reason ... I'm generally pleased if I get 220ml on the first pump, and 180 on the second ... but as long as I'm pumping less then he's drinking, my frozen stores are dwindling away ... but I pump in the morning, and often get 300mls.
Please, ask me anything specific!
And thanks so much for your encouragement
Last edited by peanutter; October 2nd, 2010 at 10:48 PM.
I just wanted to say that from memory, I'm pretty sure 4monthish was a nightmare time for me too. I remember that back arching, and really short feeds, and screaming all too well. It's horrible isn't it?
I'd felt like there was no milk or something, coz it seemed like she couldn't possibly be full after what 10 seconds?? ANyway, I just tried not to worry about it, and just let DD do something else when she fussed, and it turned out to be just a phase.
Good luck, you sound like you've really got everything under control, and good work with all the expressing!
Most babies at this age take about 700-800 mls in 24 hours and they grow, thrive and are satisfied. And most babies feed 8+ times per day. Bottle feeding is different to breastfeeding. Babies feed at the breast for a whole lot more tha just the food. It's a cuddle and a way of winding down - and just hanging out with their fave girl - mum. A bottle is just food. They don't get that lovely extra sucking they do with breastfeeding. But because they crave the extra sucking they will often take more from a bottle than the breast. Then there's the more subtle things. The carer, seeing 30 mls left in the bottle will be keen for baby to finish it - not to waste it. So they will "jiggle" that last bit into the baby, wheras with the breast you have to take their word they are finished. I think the amounts you are getting are fine. Remind your carer to "pace" feedings - give him a break halfway through, turn him around so he sucks from the other side (so to speak)
milk supply is really as simple as the more you take out the more you make. So the way to increase your supply is to feed (and/or express more frequently)
Peanutter - we are so the same it is scary. I aim to express between 10-11 and then 2-3 as well. I get 140-180mls each time. In the mornings I express about 200mls and then BF her before I go to work. I also express just before I go to bed each night and get between 60 - 100mls. All up I aim to have 600mls in the fridge each morning for DH and most of the time he isn't dipping into my freezer supply. When DD went through her last growth spurt and DH was into my freezer supply it totally freaked me out but I found that the mornings were the best time to express to increase my supply. I just kept going and going and going until I had basically none left, then I would give DD some milk from the bottle (to make sure she got food) and then put on her each side. I did this for about a week. It really sucks having to wake her up for feeds before I go to work but it is worth it to know that I am getting enough milk for her.
That's great that your work is supportive. I own my own business so no one really says much to me - I think all my staff are in total denial about what I am doing in the little room LOL Are you using an electric pump? I was in the beginning but I found that it wasn't emptying my breasts very well and I was prone to lumps so I switched back to the manual pump and I actually find it quicker. Strange hey! I think it might have something to do with the whole noise of the pump and my paranoia about everyone hearing me.
I remember that my DS used to pull off and arch his back when he had wind pain - and after leaving him upright for a minute he would almost always burp. We actually worked out a way to breastfeed him in an upright position and he would burp and feed at the same time!! I think as they start to empty the breast quicker their tummies can take a while to catch up!
They can also do this in frustration, I believe, as they start to empty the breast quicker and they get annoyed when there is no more. If you know there is plenty of milk there I would say that it is wind related.
Probiotics (aka 'friendly gut bacteria') are very effective at easing digestive upsets. If you were treated with antibiotics during or after birth, antibiotic residue is passed on to bubs via the breastmilk, killing off some of their vital probiotic bacteria, as antibiotics effectively kill both good and bad bacteria - they cannot discriminate between them. To replace their (and your) friendly bacteria you must either supplement with a probiotic yourself (which will pass onto bubs via the breastmilk) or add some probiotic infant powder to his EBM. Our breastmilk naturally contains probiotics in the early stages- but exposure to antibiotics kinda screws that up! Unfortunately Obs etc will not inform you of this when at hospital.
You can purchase probiotics from health food stores. Must be kept in the fridge. Check out InLiven in the belly belly store.
HTH.
Congrats on exclusively bfeeding and working full time - I imagine that's no easy feat & takes dedication and sacrifice- very admirable.
I find that if I feed bubs in the morning I can still often pump a good 200mls, but if I just pump, I tend to get around 250-340mls...
But as I catch the 6.53am train, we start trying to get us into the car a bit before 6.40am - and bub's feed time is just after 7am (when DH gets back from dropping me off) ... also, if I was to regularly bf as well as pump in the mornings, I'd have to get up closer to 5am than 6am, which would wreak havock with my brain (and therefore my job!)
One possibility we'll have to consider though if I can't keep my milk up, would be to go to bed earlier and get up earlier, and bf and express before work ...
But given I'm at home for another week, I'm hoping that another week of exclusive breastfeeding, with some additional pumping and top ups will increase my milk supply LOTS! Which will mean that I can store some extra so if my supply declines again, we have some to spare ...
I was able to store about 4 litres over five or six weeks when Joshua was around 4 - 9 weeks old, and I've still got some of that milk left (about 200mls) which makes me hopeful that I'll be able to feed and pump enough to keep little Joshie on my milk alone for another 8 weeks, until he's 6 months old
If we need to do extra pumps, so be it.
I use the Avent electric pump. I find it really good. I have to do other things while I pump, so a manual one isn't practical at all. Not sure whether a manual pump would be more efficient, but the one I have lets you pump manually and then press a button, and it mimics whatever pumping action you were doing. I find it to be very good, but not as efficient as bf of course.
My lactation consultant told me that 10 minutes per side is all that you need, but sometimes I find that 15 - 20 per side gets enough more that it's worthwhile. Any more than that, and I can end up pumping 40 minutes for an extra ml or two ... But sometimes it seems like so little, I can't bear to stop, thinking every drop counts, ignoring the fact that all I'm doing is stressing and guilting myself out, making myself late back for work, and not actually getting much more milk out ...
I'm gathering that frequency rather than length is going to help here!
In terms of actual amounts, I'm happy if I get 300ml in the morning (bub drinks 225-250) and then 240ml at 11 (bub drinks another 225) and then 180ml at 3pm (another 225 gets drunk). So some days we get there, some days we don't. I also try to feed just from one side for the late night feed, and pump the rest, to catch up on my milk for the day if I'm a bit under. Sometimes it's 40ml, sometimes it's 140ml ...
I then bf at around 7pm (usually a big feed) and bubba sometimes wants supper around 10.30-11pm (a smaller feed). When he doesn't want the last one, I pump both sides of course. We're trying to get him out of the habbit of that last feed - but of course as long as he needs it, it's his
And yes, growth spurts can mean anything up to an extra 200ml in the day, and an extra bf at night (6.30, 8.30, 10.30-11pm) and sometimes even a top up around 5.30-6am.
There doesn't seem to be any correlation between my fluid intake, diet or anything else and my milk ... my stress/adrenaline levels are generally quite high, so I don't think that impacts much either ... I know I feel better when I've had enough sleep, but even that doesn't seem to actually affect my milk levels, so I just try to do what's right, and pray for the best! And of course bf a lot at night...
My workplace is great - I'm not the first mum to be pumping during the day, but other women have come abck after 6 or 12 months and so only have needed to pump once during the day. But the Director I work for would have liked to be an at home dad, and so is very sympathetic. Also, in the bast I have bent over backwayrds for them (working anything up to 4am to get the job done) and so they are very supportive for me now that I need some leeway.
I need to keep on my game though, which is tough with me a bit more tired these days, and less flexible in my working hours! I think I've worked until 7 twice, and come in on the weekend once since bubba was born. Family just can't be compromised these days.
My colleagues are also totally in denial about what goes on in the room with the blinds ... my boss teases some of the staff about it from time to time ("is peanutter finding a new way to express herself?" "is the peanutter express still running?" etc...)
I've asked a couple of the ladies who sit right outside the room whether they can hear me, and they can't - and the walls are glass, go it would be a good indicator. Hope that assists your paranoia
Wow, you are doing awesome - what great ml's! I was using a Tommee Tippee electric and it just didn't do it for me ...........I was getting alot of lumps and it was taking me half an hour each session. Now, with the Avent manual - I can be done in about 15 mins and I am lump free Another reason I swapped to the manual is because I was using the electric and working away on my laptop/iphone and I found that I was getting less milk. LC told me to stop doing anything else other than looking at pics of my DD and while I was annoyed because this meant less productive time - it actually worked for me because the expressing session got heaps quicker. The avent electric one does sound good but I don't think I can buy a 3rd pump in 4 months hee hee.
Your LO is a milk machine - you must be making some yummy stuff My DD is only drinking 150 - 180ml's per feed but she has 1 extra bottle during the day than I express.
So great to chat to you about this, I have been struggling IRL because I don't know anyone else who is in this situation and all my friends who have BF in the past just keep talking to me about how hard BFing is in general and keep telling me not to worry about supply or how much milk I am getting. Despite the fact I can talk to them about anything and I try and explain how counting ml's expressed and mill, milk and more milk is all I ever think about - they just don't understand where I am at.
It is pouring rain here so has been a lovely weekend in side with lots and lots of cuddles - just perfect
I get the occasional lump, but I find that if I massage the spot while doing the next bf it goes away, so I haven't had any trouble yet ... it stays that way!! I've had enough other issues with my pg and birth, without a bout of mastitis or anything ...
Glad you've found one that works for you, though. I have a little brag book which I sometimes take with me when pumping, but it doesn't seem to help me ... I have heard others say it helps them... I looked at those double boobie ones, but they were around the $600 mark!! ouch. And you couldn't set the pace the way you can with my one.
I know what you mean about the IRL thing ... I don't know a single chick my age (or even close) who is a full time working mummy - the only ones I know at all are now in their 40s-50s, and have loads of money for nannies, or mothers/mothers in law who come to their house all day when their kids were babies.
And my female friends either don't want kids, or are planning on being stay at home mums, and can't understand how I can bring myself to go to work every day. And while they don't judge me intentionally or overtly, it feels like they do, in their heart of hearts ... maybe I'm just paranoid, though.
As far as the bf goes, I find my mummy friends are pretty much a clean split between those who hvae had zero issues, and are jersey cows who could feed five babies, and those who have had substantial troubles, whether limited supply, shockingly bad blocked ducts and mastitis, babies failing to thrive, gestational diabeties causing problems, or the like ...
And there I am, in the middle somewhere! And I understand where you're at, because I'm there too ...
bubba screaming and pulling off while feeding ... wail!
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sadly, maybe it wasn't enough. I did however have a lot (over 1L) frozen EBM at home, in case something like that happened, so we haven't needed to use formula, yet, which I'm very happy about.
it stays that way!! I've had enough other issues with my pg and birth, without a bout of mastitis or anything ...
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