thread: Looking at night weaning to get more sleep....advice please

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  1. #1
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    Unhappy Looking at night weaning to get more sleep....advice please

    My 11 month old little girl is frequently waking in the night still (has since 8mths) so we aren't getting much sleep the last 3 months and I'm REALLY exhausted. I'm cranky alot because I am not getting enough sleep (haven't had more than 2-3hrs in a row in about 3mths)
    I love breastfeeding and have no plans to wean any time soon however because DD uses my boobs as comfort so much in the night (we are co-sleeping to get more rest) and very rarely uses it for a drink in the night, I've been thinking of weaning her off night time feeds and only letting her have demand feeds anytime during the day only.
    Is this ok to do at my DD's age or is it too early yet? Is she too young for me to do this? I don't really want to do this though... but I feel like I don't have a choice.

    I have been offering water in a sippy cup of a night time and she will have a little drink and sometimes still want the boob but only as a way of comfort for her (she isn't really drinking much).... I just am worried what if I don't let her have it and she really does need milk during the night one night during a growth spurt (as an example) and I say no to her

    I'm at a loss as to what to do.... I really need more sleep. I am so sleep deprived I really am finding it difficult to function of a daytime and it's affecting my moods etc and I feel I am not being as good a Mum as I could be because of lack of sleep

    Some gentle advice please? I'm very pro-breastfeeding so I know night feeds is all part of it... but at this age? that many????
    Barb can you help please? It's exhausting letting her come on and off all night on the boob because I really do think it's more of a habit for her and I am awake every time she does it I can't just fall back asleep.

    Only just got DD to sleep so better go try and get some sleep now.
    Ta.

  2. #2
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    melbourne
    11,462

    hun,ive just ventured into the land of night weaning!
    suse suggested to me Dr Jay Gordan, he covers co-sleeping and night weaning-gentle ways, so maybe google him, i used his philosophy but changed it to suit me!

    we now do cuddles and sippy cup of water, i havent fed in 5 nights now, maybe get DH on board over the weekend to help out, i should say that we started then stopped for a week then started again, it seems to be working this time

  3. #3
    Registered User

    Nov 2006
    brisbane
    3,975

    Oh hun wish I had a way cause I would be a rich woman lol!

    I remmeber it all to well...I am here fi you need

  4. #4
    Registered User

    Nov 2004
    Melbourne VIC
    1,733

    I second the Jay Gordon approach to night weaning. I liked his gentle approach and the fact that he covers co-sleeping as well. We haven't been doing it strictly as he recommends to wait until 12 months but DS is having one night feed at the moment compared to 3-4 a month or so ago. I can cope with that for now and when he hits 12 months I might try and follow it more strictly and see how we go.

    All those wake ups are so hard, but I understand there comes a time when you just need to sleep! Good luck with it, and I hope you are able to get some more rest soon

  5. #5
    Registered User

    Oct 2007
    Brissy
    2,208

    Ok, I'm no expert so I'm sorry if I get some of this wrong!!

    At her age she doesn't nutritionally need it. She may get thirsty (especially seeing as its summer!) so offer water if you like. Its comfort so she will need lots of cuddles! But you know that

    Ive just recently night weaned Eva (at 13.5 mths) so I'll tell you what we did. I did the same thing with Darlie (but at about 8mths I think)

    Before we weaned she would sleep in her cot till she woke (sometime after midnight) then I would feed her and bring her back in with us.
    We began weaning when DH was on holidays so he could get up to her that first wake-up, so he could get her back to sleep without a feed. If she woke after that, he would bring her into our bed and I would cuddle her but not feed her. Surprisingly this worked well! It only took a few nights and now she is even sleeping through!

    It wasn't really traumatic either - she grizzled a little bit the first night wanting me instead of DH- but she never had to cry herself to sleep or anything.

    Just know that its ok if you want to night wean - you aren't a bad mummy or anything! Youre doing a great job

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Jul 2006
    Melbourne
    3,715

    Oh god, I soooo remember those days. I will be of no use to you, as we never really night weaned until we weaned (which actually went very smoothly). TBH, between 9 and 13 months things were very difficult. Lots of night waking, terrible day sleeping, and plenty of crying. But things picked up a bit once he was 1, and although he still fed at night it was somehow easier to deal with.

    I will reassure you that although not every baby does it, it is very normal. For whatever reason your DD feels the need to be close to you through the night......cute! I was quite resentful of it myself, but did not have the energy to go through with actually trying to night wean (which I'm pretty sure would have been unsuccessful for DS). When we discovered his intolerances, and subsequently changed his diet, he slept alot better and didn't feed quite so much during the night. I was so relieved I hadn't forced him to night wean, he obviously needed that comfort.

    Not at all saying that your DD has those problems, just that sometimes the reason for their need doesn't become obvious until down the track. But it's a hard balance......you need to be a functioning mum. I'm not too sure how to help you.........sometimes all we need to hear is that it will get better!!! (LOL, I know you know that!). But sometimes we genuinely need a plan of action to try and improve things. It sounds as though you don't really want to actively night wean her right now......is that right?

    Just trying to understand so I can help you better hun

  7. #7
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Jan 2006
    11,633

    Oh, it's tough, isn't it?

    I have one question - if she's not feeding, will someone else be getting up to resettle her when she wakes? Cause there are no guarantees that even if you can night wean that she'll stop waking so much. And if it's still you getting up.... well, you see where I'm heading.

    Try by all means, but if you meet very stiff resistence, maybe allow for the possibility that she really isn't ready. She *might* still need it nutritionally - DS switched from milk to bananas (they're just handy) from 14 till 18 months. Obviously that's not typical, but I'm just making that point.

    But I would give it a good crack, say 1-2 weeks, because they can be ever so stubborn. The first few nights will be hardest most likely, but hopefully will get easier from there.

    Really hope you find a way to get some more sleep

  8. #8
    Life Subscriber

    Jul 2006
    Brisbane
    6,683

    hun, that can be such a difficult age What people don't tell you is that one in 2 babies is still waking in the night at 12 months. It is more normal than you think. Some babies still do need a drink to get through the night and many are unable to settle themselves back to sleep at that age.

    At your DD's night weaning might not be successful, however there are ways to gently try it which might be a good place for you to start. I am not familiar with Jay Gordan's method, but it certainly sounds like something worth looking into. I can also recommend the books "The no cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantley and Pinky Mackay's "Sleeping like a baby".

    Some other things that you might try are explaining to her that milk is for day time and water is for night. I know she seems young for this but babies at that age do understand more than we realise. Then try offering water at night instead of bfs. This works even better if your partner offers it. Sometimes a snack before bed can help too. Also if you become aware that she is stirring, you could try patting her back to sleep before she has fully woken up.

    Hopefully something that you try will work for you. In the meantime, it's ok to rest during the day when your DD is asleep. Often when are babies are older we feel like getting things done is more important - but looking after you is still more important.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,979

    Thanks everyone.

    DD fed last night at one point and had a big drink in the night and that made me realise she must not really be ready for night weaning yet so I won't try it for another few weeks. I am going to wait until she's had her 1st b'day at least anyway. I offered water in a sippy but she wasn't interested in water last night.

    That's true about how she still may wake even with night weaning being successful however at least that's half the battle over iykwim? She will just need cuddles to get to sleep rather than feeding....and yes it's mainly me settling DD of a night time.... DH will help if I really need it but he needs his sleep for work.

    I know it's pretty common for babies this age to still wake of a night time.... just didn't realise they'd wake so frequently at this age still though! it's a killer.....
    DD used to be a great self settler and could put herself back to sleep up until the age of about 8mths!!!
    What happened?? She used to be able to sleep up to 8hrs at a time and sometimes even up to 12hrs at a time! (what good nights they were too! ha!) every so often......
    so why can't she do that anymore??? Not even once a week?
    Do they forget how to self soothe/settle themselves ??

    MR - you're so right, I think as our babies get older we sometimes feel like we shouldn't be sleeping in the day hey! I do rest some days.... but she doesn't always sleep that long in the day.

  10. #10
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    Melbourne
    4,031

    It's a tough one. They say nurtitionally babies don't need night feeds after about 3mths Unless they are having a growth spurt and just plain starving. Please correct me if I am wrong, pretty sure I got this advice from my local MHN.

    Have you tried sending in your DH to settle her? When you are ready to finish BF altogether at night perhaps your DH could take a week's Hol's and you get him to do the settling for you at night.

    At various ages they reach big milestones which can interrupt their night sleeps. Like learning to crawl or learning to walk or just something new and this can disturb their night sleep pattern for some reason. I suppose it's like when we have a big day sometimes it's harder to settle if we are still thinking about what the day was about.

    Good Luck Take care of you

    x Heather

  11. #11
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber

    Feb 2006
    melbourne
    11,462

    hun DD would have looooooooooong night feeds too, i think for her its more habit as she has always woken, then had boob and gone back to bed, its not her fault, its just easier for me to comfort her that way and i was happy to do that, i still would be if it were only once a night and not 3

    heather babies well past the 3 month mark need feeds for nutrition., id say its closer to the 9-10 months....

    BBL baby crying....
    Last edited by Olive; January 15th, 2010 at 06:42 AM.

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Jul 2008
    summer street
    2,708

    Sending a big

    I could have written your post myself...except DD has never slept all night, but it did use to be better for us before 8 months also. Yes my DD also used to self settle, but when separation anxiety set in, she needed feeding/rocking to sleep.

    I have thought and thought on night weaning, but I cannot stand the crying in the night. DD settles so quickly with a little feed, and tbh I think she still needs it. Sometimes I can actually hear her tummy rumble. Milk is still their primary source of nutrients before 12 months, so it might be worth hanging out until after she's one.

    In the meantime you need a holiday. Can you put aside some time over the weekend to sleep? Or can your partner get up with DD each morning for a week so you can sleep in?

    You're such a great mum!

  13. #13
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
    5,951

    No advice hun, but I wanted to send you lots of . You have received some wonderful advice from the others. I really hope you can find something that works that you're comfortable with. xxx

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Mar 2007
    6,900

    As you know Ren we have the same situation here.

    It's so hard to get up the energy to try night weaning even though bc feeding back to sleep is the easiest and quickest way!! But I remember when I was pregnant with DD I was soo tired and I got a lot of sleep so she'll have to sleep better before we start TTC!! So I have been looking at the Dr Jay Gordon plan too and am thinking about giving it a try after she's 1.

    I am skeptical though bc DD has NEVER self settled so last night I tried just to see if it would work, fed her for a bit and then took her off and just rolled over. She mucked around a bit, DH patted her bum, she laughed a bit and said 'mum mum', slapped DH in the face a few times, and then rolled over and went to sleep, pmsl. So there is hope!! You know how bad of a sleeper DD is!! ALWAYS needs to be rocked to sleep and is a total booby addict!! So I'm hoping this plan will work when I try it. The NCSS did nothing for us


    Changing The Sleep Pattern In The Family Bed By Dr Jay Gordon
    I can only imagine a mom and dad who are as tired as anyone can be, eager to see this article on sleep, and finding that we had made it unavailable for a little while!
    We had to do that because I didn't write the article clearly enough and need to clarify some very important facts.
    It would be hard to find as strong a proponent of the family bed as I am. Yet, I have received email commenting that there were sections of this "plan" which were easy to misinterpret as being just another angle on "sleep training" for young babies. It is not meant to be that. Not even close to an endorsement of the benefits of getting your baby to "soothe herself to sleep" during the first year.
    Here's what I really want to do: I want to offer an alternative to Ferber and Weisbluth and the Whisperer. I never want to see my ideas applied to a four month old or even a seven month old baby. As a matter of fact, I am not too excited about pushing any baby around at night but I know that sometimes it will be done and I'd like to offer a gentle, supported plan for after the first year.
    Before I go any further, let me express my overriding concern. Babies do better when we answer all their questions as best we can and meet their needs as best we can.
    Most of the families I have taken care of in my pediatric practice sleep in a family bed.
    Their babies tend to breastfeed for more than one year and they don't sleep through the night any better than most of us would if we napped and cuddled within inches of the best restaurant in town and knew it was open 24 hours a day.
    This arrangement is not just adequate and tolerable, but actually feels easier to moms who can just roll over, nurse a while and fall back to sleep with their babies rather having to get out of bed to nurse or, alternatively, refuse to nurse and get their babies back to sleep some other way.
    Lots of parents continue this pattern through the first year and well into the second and beyond, but some get tired of it -- or just plain tired -- after a while and are looking for a way to change things. Saddest of all, some moms and dads think that total weaning from breastfeeding is the best way to get more sleep. They choose not to look into nighttime weaning as a good option instead.
    There are dozens of confusing books and magazine articles implying that there can be some quick and easy way to get your baby to sleep or to not nurse through the night. I have yet to read one which told parents the complete truth: It's not easy, it's rarely quick and it's usually a little loud and heartbreaking for a few nights . . . or more. I have seen too many families needing help and getting offered choices they didn't like at all.
    I have a better alternative to completely weaning or to letting the baby cry it out. Babies wake up for the optimal interaction with their moms, breastfeeding back to sleep. If we offer them a little less than that for a few nights and then a little less and still less in the ensuing nights, gentle behavior modification will lead them to realize that it might not be "worth it" to knock on the door of a closed restaurant, so to speak.
    I don't recommend any forced sleep changes during the first year of life. Probably the only exception to this would be an emergency involving a nursing mom's health. There are many suggestions in books and magazines for pushing "sleeping through the night" during a baby's early months or during the first year. I don't think this is the best thing to do and I am quite sure that the earlier a baby gets "non-response" from parents, the more likely he is to close down at least a little.
    Don't get me wrong. I love the family bed, child-led weaning and cuddling all through the first, second, third year or more if it's working well and if the family is doing well. Don't let anyone convince you that this is a harmful choice or that there will be "no way" to get him out of your bed if you don't do it now. Don't believe anyone who says that babies who cuddle and nurse all night long "never" learn to self soothe or become independent. This is simply not true but it sells books and the myths stay in our culture.
    Some moms just don't want to do this after some months or years and there should be a third choice to the dichotomy of crying it out or giving in to all-night nursing. Again, I support the family bed and frequent night nursing for a long time and even attempt to pull some parents along "just a little farther," but I often have to switch tacks and support and help families with difficult choices.
    Here's what I recommend for older babies:
    Choose the most valuable seven hours of sleep for yourselves. I personally prefer 11p.m. through 6 a.m. but you might have a slightly different idea.
    Change the rules during those hours and be comfortable that a "well-built" family bed baby's personality can withstand this rule changing and the mild inconsistency of getting everything he wants all the time . . .oops, almost all the time. That's the word we want to show this baby. The word "almost." If only we could explain to him that "tired moms and dads take their children to the park a little less and that children of well-rested parents get to go the zoo and for hikes a lot more than children of exhausted parents." If that explanation only made sense to kids somewhere before the third birthday (and it doesn't!) they would simply roll over, say, "See you in the morning," and let us get the sleep we want.
    I try to do this in three- and four-night intervals.
    I'm assuming that you have a wonderfully healthy 12-, 15-, 20- or 30-month old baby who still loves to wake up every 2 to 4 hours to cuddle, eat or . . . whatever. I'm assuming that you have thought this through, decided you want to make changes and alerted the neighbors that it might be a little noisy for a week or so.
    I'm assuming that both parents agree -- or almost agree -- that this is the best thing to do. And, most important assumption of all, you are willing to go "in a straight line" to the goal of seven straight hours of sleep.
    The reason for that last statement: If your baby learns that crying, squirming and fussing (euphemisms, let's just say "crying" . . . sorry) for an hour will get him fed you will set yourself back quite a bit. This is the best program I have seen but it's far from easy. And now, to say it again, I really like what you've been doing. Cuddling, nursing, hugging through the night. Don't change this with my program or any other if you're happy doing what you're doing. But . . .
    The First Three Nights
    At any time before 11 p.m. (including 10:58) nurse to sleep, cuddle and nurse when he wakes up and nurse him back to sleep, but stop offering nursing to sleep as the solution to waking after 11 p.m.. Instead…..
    When your baby awakens at midnight or any other time after 11 p.m., hug him, nurse him for a short time but make sure he does not fall asleep on the breast and put him down awake. Rub and pat and cuddle a little until he falls asleep but don't put him back on the breast (or give him a bottle if that's what you've been doing). He must fall asleep with your comfort beside him, but not having to nurse to feel comforted enough to drift off.
    Now, he will tell you that he is angry and intensely dislikes this new routine. I believe him. He will also try to tell you that he's scared. I believe he's angry, but a baby who's had hundreds of nights in a row of cuddling is not scared of falling asleep with your hand on his back and your voice in his ear. Angry, yes. Scared, no, not really.
    During these first three nights, repeat this pattern only after he has slept. He might sleep for fifteen minutes or he might sleep for four hours, but he has to go to sleep and reawaken to get cuddled and fed again.
    These will be hard nights.
    You may have decided you're really not ready to do this. That's OK. Stop and start over again in a few months if you like. Choosing the right time is crucial and many people choose a time suggested or pushed by friends, doctors or in-laws. This doesn't work as well.
    Is it better to do this in the family bed, a crib in the same room or using a crib in another room? I prefer to continue the family bed even though it might seem harder at first, but it has always seemed harder to me to be putting a baby in and out of a crib. However, a crib or toddler bed in your room may be what works best for you. Another option is to expand your bed's limits by placing another mattress against your mattress. A bit more space for each family member may help to solve some of the sleep issues. My least favorite choice is a crib or bed in a separate bedroom.
    Again, during these first three nights, between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m., cuddle and feed short, put him down awake, rub, pat, talk until he falls asleep and repeat this cycle only after he's slept and reawakened. At 6:01 a.m., do whatever you have been doing as a morning routine ignoring the previous seven hours' patterns. Many babies will roll over, nurse and cuddle back to sleep and give you an extra hour or so. Some won't.
    For me, one of the most reassuring parts of this "sleep plan" is seeing that babies wake up fine, happy and grudge-free about the change in the rules. You'll see what I mean, even if the first few minutes of the morning are not exactly as they've always been.
    The Second Three Nights
    Again, the nursing to sleep stops at 11 p.m. When he wakes up, hug him and cuddle him for a few minutes, but do not feed him, put him down awake. Putting him down awake is a crucial part of this whole endeavor because it really does teach him to fall asleep with a little less contact and then a little less. Not feeding is the big change during these three nights. One-year-old babies can easily go for those seven hours (or more) with no calories. They like to get fed a little through the night, but physiologically and nutritionally, this is not a long time to go without food.
    If I could wake my wife a few times each night, ask her to squeeze me a little fresh orange juice (my favorite drink) and rub my back while I drank it, I wouldn't choose to voluntarily give up this routine. My wife might have some different ideas and get tired of the pattern quickly. Babies rarely give up their favorite patterns and things -- day or night-- without balking and crying.
    I really don't like listening to babies cry. I actually hate listening to babies cry. Unlike them, though, we adults can truly understand the implications of lack of sleep for a family of three, four or more people. Sleep patterns sometimes have to be changed. The incredible safety and reassurance the family bed has provided, and continues to provide, supplies the best context and location for these changes.
    During these second three nights, some babies will cry and protest for ten minutes at a time and some will go for an hour or more. Your toddler is aware that you are right beside him, offering comfort and soothing. It just isn't the mode of comfort he wants at the moment. It is hard to listen to him fuss, but it will work. I believe that a well-loved baby, after a year or more in the family bed, will be the ultimate beneficiary of his parents getting more sleep. Not coincidentally, the parents benefit "big time," too.
    "Yes, for the past many months we have enjoyed voting "1 to 2" -- non-democratically -- in favor of . . . the baby. 'Anyone want to get up all night, feed and walk the baby and be really tired all day and the next day too?' Well, the vote is 1 to 2 in favor of the baby."
    Now, what we're saying is, we will sometimes be voting two to one in favor of the baby's family. This "baby's family" concept may be abhorrent to he who considers himself the King of England, or Emperor of the Whole World, but our knowing he has that feeling of power allows us to confidently demote the dictator to a majority-respecting member of the family. His family.
    By the end of the sixth night, your baby is going back to sleep without being nursed or fed. He's going back to sleep after a nice hug, a cuddle and with your hand on his back and your words in his ear.
    If, at any point this is feeling "wrong" to you, stop, wait some months and start over. Don't go against your "gut instincts" which tell you that this is the wrong time to get longer sleep intervals from your baby. Your instincts are better than any sleep-modification program ever written.
    The Next Four Nights
    Nights seven, eight, nine and ten. Don't pick him up, don't hug him. When he awakens after 11 p.m., talk to him, touch him, talk some more, but don't pick him up. Rub and pat only. No feeding either, obviously. He will fall back to sleep. Repeat the rubbing and talking when he reawakens. By the end of the ninth night, he will be falling back to sleep, albeit reluctantly for some babies and toddlers, with only a rub and a soothing voice.
    After
    After these first ten nights, continue to cuddle and feed to sleep if you like and he wants to, but do nothing when he wakes up except to touch a little and talk to him briefly. This may continue for another three or four nights but occasionally keeps going for another week or more. Then . . . it stops. He has learned that he is just as well-loved, gets virtually everything he needs and wants all day, but must give seven hours per night back to his parents and family.
    What happens if you travel, he gets sick or some other circumstance demands a return to more nighttime interaction? Nothing. You do what you need to do (cuddle, nurse, walk, in the middle of the night, as many times as you need to) and then spend a night or two or three getting back to the new pattern the family has established.
    By the way, pay the baby. Make sure that he really does get a lot of the benefit of your getting a good night's sleep. Go to the park more often. Do all those things with him you said you'd do if he ever let you sleep longer. Explain it to him as you're doing it. He'll understand in an ever increasing way and will be OK with all this.
    *the bits in red were already there, I didn't add them.