Supply deminishing...

[CatherineL]

Well here I am in this section AGAIN!

I went and saw my GP today main reason being I am having problems with my supply... The last week I have had to give Rochelle a bottle of formula in the evening because after offering her both breasts she is still hungry. Depends how much of it she will take but it's anywhere from 50 to 100mls. I was still offering both breasts to her before I would let her have a bottle and then I would also pump, getting maybe 10mls out from both sides. Things seem to be on the decline though... a couple of times during the day I have had to resort to the bottle because she has cleaned me right out. Most feeds I must say, one breast will do her fine and she absolutely empties it because it is that soft that I can feel my implant (i've had a couple of breast aug's for those that don't already know) and my breast will feel like it's hanging around my knees. Anywhoo... the norm for me has been fullest first thing in the morning and I will be leaking everywhere and they will be hard as - yesterday morning and more so this morning, they weren't very full - I had to offer her both breasts and she emptied both of them and then I struggled the next feed and then the feed after I had to top her up with the formula. I tell all this to my Dr and he said it's comman with mastitis that the supply can decrease or even cease. He has advised me to go back and see the LC tomorrow... but I am obviously worried that BF'ing isn't working out for us - I don't want to give her all this formula, I was Ok with one... but not every second feed.

We are using fenugreek to no prevail, supply and demand just isn't working because Rochelle is so frustrated she isn't getting the milk that she will clamp down on my nipples and tug at them - I can't let her go hungry (although she did put on 380grams in the last week), yet I know every bottle of formula she has that's one less feed my body is being told to make iykwim? I feel like I am at my witts end... I really wanted to BF (exclusively ideally) and I wanted her to wean herself... Where is the light at the end of my tunnel? When will it get easy?? Does anyone have any suggestions?

ETA - My Dr also mentioned that even if we are only giving her one bottle of formula - since we aren't exclusively BF we need to look at contraception. Can anyone tell me how this works? I mean how does one bottle/feed affect it?

[Enchanted]

hun.

You are having a tough time with breastfeeding aren't you?! I want you to know though that you are doing an amazing job with your gorgeous girl. Have you tried pumping between feeds? That will increase your supply. Also do you think Rochelle might be going through a growth spurt?! When I had mastitis I lost A LOT of my supply and am still building it back up (that was over a month ago). The Dr prescribed me Maxalon ( a drug that increases breastmilk production). Have a look at this thread if you haven't already Increasing Breast Milk Production

You might be able to find some more ideas on there. Tracey on BB swears by Fenugreek (I know you are taking that now) but also Aktavite which is a chocolate drink. Your boobs are never really 'empty' even though they may feel like it. As soon as you start feeding more milk is being 'made' to replace what is being taken out. Have you tried changing and burping Rochelle after she has had one side and then maybe try and put her back on the same side and see how she goes. If that makes sense?!?

Hope things improve for you hun but definately seeing an LC will be fantastic for you.

[CatherineL]

Thanks Dani! Yeah I have tried to burp and change her bum and then put her back on the first side but after a minute she starts whining and tugging at the nipple which isn't very pleasant. I have been trying to express in between feeds, but she feeds every three hours and I found that expressing in between seems to make the subsequent feed harder for Ro and then we definitely don't seem to have enough... I think she is probably not satisfied with the flow? I have been expressing straight after a feed to ensure that I am actually emptying the breast as best as we can... but still doesn't seem to be helping? I'm eating oates, drinking activite, resting at lunch time, eating well and drinking 2ltrs on top of any extra drinks I consume. I will have a look at that thread after I check dinner. Why didn't my Dr prescribe me with maxalon? He said everything they used to reccommend has been found to give infants and mother's heart attacks.

Thanks again Dani... GOD this is hard!!!

[Barb Glare]

Hi, Catherine,

It's hard to see the progress in these early days, but I'm really thinking you have made some great achievements over the past 3 few weeks.
I was wondering, how much does your little one weigh now? Have you had it checked? What was her birthweight? What are her wet and pooey nappies like? (colour and quantity!)
Talk soon
Barb

[Enchanted]

It is hard hun but you will get there. There are to different drugs your Dr can prescribe and they are Maxalon and Motillium. They don't work for all people but it might be worth a go. I have also heard that sleeping with bubs can help increase milk production. Another idea might be to contact the ABA, they can be a great support. I have a book with tips on how to increase milk supply. I can scan and email to you if you like. PM me if you would like the info

[CatherineL]

I'll PM you Dani!

Barb, She was 9lbs 2oz at birth and last Wednesday (3 weeks) she was 10lbs 3oz and it will be checked again this coming Wednesday. We change her nappy at every feed (every 3 hours) and it's usually wet or quite heavy (we're using sposies btw) and she DID have a pooey nappy atleast 4 times a day up until a few days ago, but the last two days she has only had one a day which are yellow and of runny consistency and rather explosive - they tend to leak out of her nappies. Often has pooey wind though... Maybe i'm not producing enough milk because I may be a little underweight? Is that possible? I mean I'm eating plenty - my husband thinks I eat more now than I did during pregnancy, which was still rather alot!

[christy]

You often measure input (amount of milk) by output (nappies) and weight gain. She sounds like she's had fantastic weight gain! And plenty of great nappies... full and doing all the right things.

Jovie would always pull on the nipple trying to get let down & would get heaps frustrated if there wasn't let down. Sometimes she only fed 3-4 minutes on each side & then I would give her the other side & back & forth because she would only be happy for the let down & then get frustrated. I started using the dummy as well at that point so that she would have 3-4 sides of breast & then I would put the dummy in to her the wind/reflux issues. That solved it for us because although she loved the fast flow of milk it made her windy and gave her tummy pain. The dummy helped resolve those. I know its a bit bad to suggest using a dummy but it saved our breastfeeding relationship. Even now she sometimes needs the dummy after a feed to help keep it down.

[Barb Glare]

Dear Catherine,

All the information you have given me indicates that you are producing plenty of milk. It might well be a case of mistaken identity. Babies are difficult to read. Few of us have had much experience with new babies and during our lives we glean bits and pieces of information such as "babies feed four hourly" or "babies cry because they are hungry" Having a new baby is nothing like we ever expected. Despite the classes and the reading, who of us ever knew that when people said "We were up all night with the baby" they really meant they were UP ALL NIGHT with the baby." We know what you are going through, because, I bet, to a woman, we have all been there.
In a 24 hour period you can expect your baby to feed eight to 12 hours. Our "grown up" minds calculate that as every 3 hours. But the reality is that they may have one longish sleep in 24 hours - at this age 3 or 4 hours is as good as it gets at this time. Then there is the "aresnic hour" But that's only a euphemism. The truth is, it goes on for *hours* and at the end of it you would take arsenic to escape. But what you are dealing with is normal baby behaviour. Research shows that our bodies make milk pretty much the same day and night. But at one time of the day or night babies' behaviour becomes irritable. You feed them, they feed, then they don't seem to want any more, you put them down.....you are just creeping out of the room - then that wail. They want more. They often have a cluster of feeds close together over a few hours. And on top of that, it often comes at a time when we are at a low ebb, in the evening when we are tired, or in the middle of the night. When they feed so frequently, our breasts feel empty. But, in fact, they are making milk quicker than ever. Babies are also programed to LOVE sucking. It's an important survival strategy. But they suck when they are tired, they suck when they are hungry, they suck when they just want comfort. Sure, if you give them a bottle of formula they will zonk out - just like we do after we have Xmas dinner - zonked out snoring on the couch. If you give a bottle of formula your body never gets the message that it has to keep making milk, and slowly your supply DOES diminish. You are much better to guage how much milk you are making by your baby's weight gain and output than by assuming that when she is fractious and grizzly she is hungry. Does she have a dummy? Babies with a very well developed need to suck find that soothing. They need the extra sucking but not really the extra milk. And sometimes, well, we've just had enough.
Are you seeing the LC tomorrow? Ask her to teach you some gentle settling techniques. You are write, feeding her with formula every second feed is the quick route to early weaning. that's OK if that's what you want to do, but sadly, many mums I see end up with their baby completely weaned, and don't ever know how it happened.
Warm Regards
Barb

[Claire]

Hi Catherine,

That's really great advice from Barb Glare!

I too think that your supply sounds wonderful - her weight gain is great and the nappy test is spot on too. I'm thinking growth spurt. GL with the LC tomorrow xx

[CatherineL]

Firstly, I just wanted to thank everyone for your replies... It means so much to me, a frantic first time mother! I did see the LC today and she said much of what you said Barb and she seems to think I have an over supply issue and having a let down so fast that seems to be giving Rochelle a bit of reflux. She said I have plenty of milk because I was leaking all over the place (and I actually do leak often, even in the evening when I think there is no milk and my boobs feel like empty bags). She thinks I am mistaking Rochelle's protest and says it's actually Thrush (still obviously haven't gotten rid of it) and also her cluster feeding hours. She said Rochelle's weight gain has been fantastic and I actually didn't realise that she had had such big weight gains until she told me the average is 120-150 grams a week. She also thinks i'm not getting the volume when I'm expressing because i'm putting a blocker on my let down? And whilst we were in with the LC, Ro did the biggest poo EVER... It was massive and called for a complete change of clothes... We even used our entire travel compartment of wipes.. But I understand this is normal and it's normal for her poos to slow down now?

Rochelle is a great sleeper and feeds 3 hourly during the day and since birth has been waking twice a night for a feed - the past three nights she seems to have dropped a feed and only been waking once for a feed.

I am reluctant to give her a pacifier because I don't want to be up and down all night putting it back in her mouth when she wakes herself because it's not in her mouth? Plus i'd rather her suck on my boob when she will. Although I did offer her one yesterday in hope of avoiding the formula - it took ages to get her latched on, but when she did, she sucked herself silly for a few minutes then screamed and wouldn't take it again.

Anyway, thank you all so very much - fingers crossed for tonight and not needing formula...

[Barb Glare]

Dear Catherine,

I can't tell you how good it is to hear you sounding more positive. Regarding the dummy, just take one step at a time. We all just get by the best way we can in these early days, and if a dummy helps, and problems later arise - deal with them at the time. They may never happen. Many babies just suck a bit of a dummy to help them go to sleep, maybe the way we watch a bit of telly, or read a book before sleep - it helps us wind down. If you inadvertantly wean her on to formula you may well be up and down all night warming bottles.
Warm Regards
Barb

[Tracey]

Good Luck catherine, sounds like you have plenty of milk just a small amount of self doubt! We all go through it! But what Barb says rang true for me!!!

I hope you can ditch the formula (after all it starts the cycle of more formula less breast milk supply!) I find Zyon cluster feeds, feeding every 2 hours from 4pm daily til about 8pm & then sleeps all night!!! If I wasnt sure I'd be worried he was hungry & probably offer a bottle, however I know he gets tonnes (he has multiple rolls to prove it!) So maybe try offering breast more often in afternoon!???

[MantaRay]

Catherine, that's great that you are so much more positive. I also had an oversupply and fast let down. Luckily Jack was ok with it, but Tom didn't much like it. I tried posture feeding (lying on back, baby across chest) some of the time, especially first thing in the morning, and while it wasn't a magic fix all, it did seem to help a bit - gravity helps out this way. Perhaps that could be worth a try? DId your LC give you any tips for managing the fast let down?

[paradise lost]

Hey Catherine,

It sounds like you're doing brilliantly and the others have given you all the great advice you need. I just wanted to tell you that when my DD was about 4 or 5 weeks my supply began to settle down. I was so used to huge full hard BBs that i thought i was losing my supply too, until one day i fed DD then pumped nearly 200mls from the just-suckled (and very floppy and empty feeling) breast! I must have been in a good mood because when i got stressed the first thing to go was my let-down for the pump, but i just wanted to let you know that often the milk IS there, despite appearances/what the pump can access.

You're doing a great job!

Bx

[CatherineL]

Wow! You guys have given me such a confidence booster!

We have managed to avoid Formula yesterday evening! YAY!! She was on the breast every hour yesterday evening from about 4 and seemed to cry on and off and fall asleep then wake up looking for boob, pull off, cry, have asleep etc. until about 7.30 pm (which is usually the period that we give her a bottle) then woke at 10.30 pm for a feed and straight back down to sleep without any protest. I did however in the early evening offer her the dummy - and she did take to it every now and then... Once she seemed to calm back down I offered her the breast again and when she started tugging at the nipples again, i'd offer the dummy. Just hurt a bit much to continue letting her tug at my nipples.

Feeling very smug with myself for getting through the day without the formula... I hope it's not a fluke and we have this much success for days to come.

We also had the health clinic today and her weigh in was 5kgs - So she put on 280grams I think it was... which wasn't as much as last week, but I was told that it's Ok and their weight gain usually slows down about now?

Thank you all again... I hope we can keep this up!

[~Raven~]

You're doing well Catherine

I used to call that cluster feeding/nipple tugging "crazy time". Bub seemed to be crazy for it for a couple of hours. If you can manage alright without offering the formula then that is terrific. I understand how much it is a self doubt thing. I've been there myself many times. Even third time round the self doubt is there. The thing that got me through is the output and knowing that it will get easier one this little stage passes

280g is a great weight gain! Well done!

[christy]

Well Done Catherine!!! Great weight gain!! It feels so good not to have to use the formula, great work.

[Barb Glare]

280g in a week! That's sensational! The *average* is about 150g-250g!

Barb