Reply With QuoteDon't take my man comment seriously Maya. I was just beating my chest, amused by the action in the man's domain.
Registered User
Sheesh! I can't recall any post in here that has espoused everyone should have the same birth values as the poster - the only 'forecefulness' I have seen is the strong desire to let people know they are allowed to ask questions and take control of their own birthing choices (not the outcomes, there is always an unknown there, we have all acknowledged that).
I guess there are always going to be people who don't like a forum where every post is greeted with a "yes, you're so right, I agree with and accept everything you said because I'm too scared to say any different in case the discussion takes an emotionally immature turn and egos can't handle disagreement". Those forums exist at both ends of the birthing and parenting approach spectrum, I know cos I've been on them, albeit briefly! People get upset when there is a dissonance - some people will read this post and realise they ARE upset about their birth and they've been told over and over "don't worry, none of your trauma should matter to you because you got your baby" - their trauma existing but glossed over so that others no longer have to deal with the person's conflicting feelings. That's not what the OP article is saying, I don't think. She's saying that she felt fine with the process and outcome (medicalisation was necessary and not brought on by interventions that she accepted under duress and bullying by hospy staff) and she doesn't want judgment - good call, that needs to happen with all birth choices. The OP posted this woman's experience to validate people who feel similarly, that's what some of us do
As for being in the Men's Forum, if it comes up in my 'New Posts' then I'm allowed to post in it if I'm not breaching T&C's!!
I wanted to take part in the footy discussion, but never got round to it after having a very busy winter. Maybe this year.
Don't take my man comment seriously Maya. I was just beating my chest, amused by the action in the man's domain.
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
We're not used to exposure to testosterone, let alone chest beating on BB SlyderHopefully we'll see more soon though, it's great having men's perspectives and experiences in here.
Kelly xx
Creator of BellyBelly.com.au, doula, writer and mother of three amazing children
Registered User
Slyder - I was serious about the footy! I'm used to chest beating...I'm a firefighterI use unisex loos, I'll post in Men's forums, he he!
Me too. Lot's of chest beating and body hair in my brigade. Grunt grunt.
Slyder - I was serious about the footy! I'm used to chest beating...I'm a firefighter
Well none here but I can appreciate it in others!
Thanks for having us gals in your corner of BB Slyder!
You're most welcome. There's only so much that SB, Rich and I can talk about
So what's the next topic? Vaccination, circumcision.... (just joking, just joking....)
Smashing idea!
OH how I love a man who can beat his chest
beer anyone?
Registered User
I think that the sense of division sometimes felt is a lot more subtle than that though Maya. True, I've likewise never seen a post that openly or specifically criticises another member's birth choices or experiences, but I've certainly seen posts where, in a general topic of discussion, a member will voice a strong opinion about an aspect of birthing or parenting , especially about an aspect of 'the system' which by inference, can be seen to be critical of people who have made that choice.
Sometimes posters who are in a specialist area of the forum (eg: homebirth support, breastfeeding support, VBAC support etc), and feel safe in voicing their passion and determination to a likeminded audience, will say things that can potentially and unintentionally polarise, if taken out of context. Whilst this rarely causes a problem because the people who made the opposite choice do not frequent that section, some members do not always moderate their passion when in a general forum, and what can be taken as enthusiasm and passion by some can be seen as condemnation by others, depending on one's point of view.
Quite a while ago, not long after having my own c/s, I saw a post in the c/s debrief forum where the mother wondered if she'd had an unnecaesarean and what the likelihood of a repeat c/s was. A poster suggested that the mother succumbed to overwhelming pressure by a typically egotistical, scalpel happy ob and suffered from a cascade of intervention as a result. Whilst the poster was sympathetic to the mother's plight, and was critical of the ob rather than the mother, the implication was clear that the mother failed herself by trusting in her ob's recommendations.
For some reason this post really resonated with me (obviously so, seeing that I remember it years later), partially because it somewhat resonated with my own circumstance, but partially as a cautionary tale that criticism of a system can sometimes unwittingly flow on into criticism of an individual's decision. I doubt very much that the poster intended this, but her passion for preventing others from suffering a similar fate in birth to her perhaps blinded her somewhat to the impact of her criticism of the system on others who had their experiences within the system.
Having said this, I think it is equally important for members to understand context when they see a post that unintentionally upsets them (no easy task, I know, if the memory of their own experience is still a traumatic one), and perhaps avoid those sections of the forums that support and encourage choices opposite to their own if they are still coming to terms with their own choices and find it difficult to separate encouragement for another's choice, or criticism of the system in general, from tacit criticism of their own choices or experience.
(Oh, and gentlemen, I'll happily beat my chest with you all, but will leave the beer drinking in your capable hands. And Maz's too).
I hear you Suse - but again does that mean we all need to keep a lid on our opinions, feelings & thoughts & experiences "in case" someone else is unwittingly offended?
I mean I am pro breastfeeding... So, if I read a post that says: forumula milk is as high quality as breast milk... I "could" be offended. But I wouldn't be! For it's an opinion. It's not mine - & I would challenge that opinion in someone else... I would challenge it as this is a forum where people come to be informed, educated & supported. So therefore I think there is a responsibility to be factual...
I just don't know how far you can take the criticising a system could be seen as criticising an individuals choice...
I had an epidural - I succomed to pressure. It wasn't the fault of the system it was a choice I made albeit in an informed manner. I could blame the doctor, the midwife, my husband the weather for my choice. But in the end it was mine. I got an epidural headache as I chose an intervention.
But I criticisie the system all the time - and will continue to as the system doesn't serve women well in my opinion. '
Just some thoughts whilst juggling eating kids - so excuse diction and spelling!
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
I feel the same way Inanna, I don't blame anyone for my births unfolding the way they did. I was angry at the way I was treated, but I soon learnt that I did the best that I could at the time, as I only had a certain amount of information/eduction/empowerment. Which is probably what makes me so passionate about making this information accessible to the wider public now. It's not to pee off the medical profession or the general public. It's because women deserve the right to be able to have access to it. I would have wanted to know it, but I was part of a forum which didn't even go there. The forum (community) you hang in does influence your journey, I agree... lack of information is worse than loads of information (which you can pick and choose what you want to read/follow).
We're in a very messy state of our maternity system where births are very highly intervened, so in providing this information and trying to help make a change to the status quo, there are going to be feelings involved when people discover this for the first time. And yes sadly there are some people out there who do like to gloat and rub in their births - both natural and c/s.
Kelly xx
You have to know when to challenge post's or peoples opinion's and when to stand by and let them vent out or say what is on their mind without voicing your own thoughts.
As passionate as one can be, you need to be able to bite your tongue and allow others to speak.
The system let me down....yes and if I knew then what I knew now I bet my bottom dollar things would have been totally different.
Its not just about educating people, its about maturity as aperson, experiencing bad, good or ugly and listening with your heart. Becasue no matter how much someone tell's you something, if your heart doesnt hear it it has fallen on deaf ears.
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
True Maz, like I said in a previous post, some will be ready to challenge their comfort zone and others not, and thats perfectly okay - we all go through growth and change at different times. I used to think I needed the best Ob, in the best hospital, and definitely private! Then I did some research in my own time and it changed... but not before two private births!!!
The beauty of a large forum like this one is that not only are you replying to one person, you are replying to a whole forum. So while I may not help the OP, there may be many others out there, all along different parts of their journey in terms of acceptance. Like you said, if you knew what you knew now.... so everyone's journey starts somewhere... maybe it's just one post that makes the lightbulb go on... and sometimes it's not even the one you expect.
Kelly xx
Yes Kelly & I come from that place too. I was in the enviable position of having a large knowledge base having my first baby. I knew hospitals, I knew birth. I chose a homebirth. I was ridiculed like you wouldn't believe. It was enough at times to make even I who had attended homebirths to wonder...
I transfered to hospital - I agreeed to an epidural to stave off the demands of the obstetrician that I needed a c/section. IF I had not the knowledge I had I would have crumbled. In thr throes of cx with a posterior baby being told I had to sign my chart to acknowledge the RWBH would not be responsible for a still birth or neonatal damage...
I knew that if I had a c/section my road to birtth more babies was fraught with "high risk"... I knew that it was better for me and for her to come out vaginally. I founght like a hyena.
Now, had I not had the knowledge base I absolutely would have given over my body. But I didn't.
I vowed at that moment that if I could prevent only 1 other woman this "fight" that if I could prevent 1 other woman from having to have mysogynistic energy enter her sacred birthing space, if I could prevent 1 other woman from having fear used as a lever to toe the systems line. Then I would.
Now, I really had to work on myself after her birth. Really really hard. It was tough. Because I was angry. But I was angry the most at me... I was angry at the system.
Now, I am not angry at the system - I want to change it... I want to change it so my daughters have a place, a choice & a voice.
For regardless of what many women think. The reality is that many women don't get given a voice in the system... (IMO)
Ok, so it may not have turned out into a 'poo' fight. Just looked like it was heading that way kwim? Im sure we've all seen threads where it just takes one little word or one 'name call' and that's it it's on for young and old. Thankfully this wasn't one of those occasions.
But just in the topic of people getting offended by something someone else has said. I think, and I know this has been said numerous times, that sometimes when your having a crap day, screaming toddler, crying baby whatever and you already feel lousy as a mother (come on we all have those days) and you sit down to read a post and something digs at you and it offends you and you bite back. Im sure with a clear head, and having a wonderful day you'd just go meh ok whatever. But I am sure we're all guilty of reading something that has given us the irrates, i know I am. But on my time in BB i've learnt to just let stuff roll off my back. Everyone has different opinions and like i've already said numerous times. Someone elses experience isn't going to 'tarnish', for lack of a better word, the birth that I had or how much I love my daughter. Just as a Vbacing, breastfeeding, cloth nappying mother wouldn't give to hoots about what any one elses opinions or views on their experience ( i mean negative like) Why should I ? Just as a lot of people don't accept my views on religion and the fact I am a bit of a paganist. That's their issue, not mine. I was actually, funnily enough having this conversation with one of my IRL BB friends the other day about why people can't be tolerant of other peoples views/religions/ opinions etc. It's quite weird to me. People are who they are no matter what color etc and that's it. Anyway, I digress. I get what you mean maz about your csection being a good experience etc. I remember after my birth (which by definition was traumatic) I still wasn't upset about it or depressed (for lack of a better word) by what had happend. And please don't misunderstand me and think I don't think debriefing after traumatic births is something people should do. I was just confused as I didn't have that kwim? And I know alot of people were shocked by that and pressured me into "dealing" with it. But when it came down to it, I dind't feel I had to. My baby was here no matter whether through my hoo hah or out the "sun roof" as i've heard it been referred too (lol, vicky) it didn't bother me. So I guess, it's just different strokes for different folks eh?
♥ BellyBelly's Creator ♥
But when you're having those crap days with screaming toddlers, raging head and all that KL, you should stop what you're doing and calm down first. Thats also a really good idea for real life heated discussions also. If you don't think you can be constructive or your head is not in a good place, then make an effort not to post. Heck even stick a post it note on your monitor:
" I shalt not post while in a hairy mood "
or perhaps:
" I shalt not get on/remain on the computer with a screaming toddler and settle him / her down first "
Kelly xx
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