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Emma, sorry to hear about the trauma of your last birth. For me, my vaginal births meant being able to walk around right after birth, no painkillers and feeling like a lioness after. My sister, who had a c/s after two VBs, swears that her c/s was the worst thing ever - she was in pain for weeks and weeks after.
Just another example of how everyone's different, and how people react differently to different things.
Well after a while I thought I'd have another look at this thread as it's become a hybrid of many things.
To explain why I posted it? Because their is an excellent 'trick' in groups and even forums and even sunsets of community. The implied opinion.
Yes no one can make you "feel" anything. It's often a tool used in behavioural modification; to imply that change comes from within and false beliefs are your own. Granted and very useful in counselling and in lovely shiny textbooks, but remotely useful in life choices.
The we feel many things based on the environment we are in. Walk into a room at a party and "feel" the coldness. The perception may be wrong but for many it is real.
Sic
We have, after a massive effort, to move to formula feeding alone. It's interesting when in a parents room. No one will come out and verbalise anything against you making that choice (which is your own and no one else's) but there is an "atmosphere", that she's the odd one out.
I'm not posting to challenge the performance of BB dealing with CS. I appreciate the positive impact the site has for those making informed birth choices. I am also aknoweldging those who have had a journey that has affected them deeply. I hope that someday you are at peace with your feeling emotions and outlooks. I don't want to get into a further discussion about those I may have ignored or not been aware of.
Whether you agree or not, there are many in society who feel that their life choices are condemned not directly but by inference or even more subtle underpinnings.
There are parents who are left feeling guilty about their CS choice. Who caused it isn't so much the problem as the fact that they are. The fact that so much emphasis is placed on less interventional births, by exclusion the CS family and mother could be left unnecessarily questioning their choice.
Many minority and excluded groups in society are left to question their validity by societies unspoken "atmosphere". no one makes them feel this way but underlying attitudes can coerce emotions and choices
The simple notion of elective versus emergency give the connotation that unless you have a distressed baby with a slowing hear rate then every other CS is unnecessary.
Clearly this is wrong.
How about need versus not needed? Our CS was needed. An emergency? No. But no less necessary for the survival of our child.
Even the term "unnecessarean" that I see floating around websites could have a negative effect on some.
Why should they? To satisfy those who believe that there are too many CS being done? I shouldn't think so. How about worry about getting your own birth right for you and leave the decision making to us? A mother is no less a mother by the way her child arrives.
So I suppose that the point was that not every Caesarean mum does or needs to feel that their birth journey is a loss. It is not yours to influence despite the most noble of intentions. Not every mother/family needs to question their journey looking as though somehow they have failed. It was also meant to perhaps create some reflection on how your opinions can actually influence others positively and negatively.
So it was meant to be an uplifting post really for those that have been down the Caesar path.
It is interesting to read your observations SB. I know what it feels like to be aware that my choices are quite "unacceptable" or different to the mainstream. Birthing in water, homebirths and siblings in attndence is seen quite unusual in many many settings! Considering to have a c/section is a very acceptable birth choice in our country & waterbirth is banned in many centres I can see why that perception is so...
As for your partner feeling like an outsider as she is formula feeding. Again statistically she is in the majority - so even though she feels this way it's not evident with what we know happens in this country.
I agree with the inference of "normal"... I see thats what this forum is about. Removing the "normal" from c/section & replacing it with a homebirth being "normal".(just one example) Supporting women to breastfeed, to give factual and supportive evidence to women that is sorely lacking in our communities, family & society in general!
For statistically your wife having a c/section is "normal" and so is formula feeding. That is why we need to increase awareness and education. It's absolutely crucial to the women of today & tomorrow. When we "normalise" birthing and breastfeeding it becomes less fearful - without fear our bodies open... With milk, with babies, with lots of things!
Respectfully I don't share your belief that to own our feelings & reactions isn't plausable in life situations. I think when one feels guilt that comes from within... If it can be blamed on another somehow it alleviates responsibility for the feeler... But - granted it would seem I at least see it differently.
SB, you've obviously never been a breastfeeding woman in a parents' room... (he he!)
If you want your reality to be that of the condemned, then so be it. I could choose to feel condemned for my homebirth, especially every time a negative or twisted story comes out in the media and family and friends (well-meaning) tell me about it and question my choice. I know why I chose what I did and I am comfortable enough with that to explain in response to genuine questions. That's all that matters to me. I want that to matter to all birthing women - to know why they are choosing their path. Most women I knew before I gave birth the first time did NOT know specifically why they chose hospital births, only that it was the assumed 'option' and they never questioned it.
There is no desire or current perception to be the condemned. Quite the contrary. It's I suppose "awareness" and mindfullness of all.
And despite my man boobs I have yet to pefect the art of male breast feeding.;)
I agree, SB :) (no, not about the man boobs, haven't seen them to make my own conclusions!!) I think it's always a good idea to hang back and ask some caring questions about someone who's just told you they had a c-s, cos you don't know what she's feeling about it. Sometimes it's just not the right time to suggest that the medicos were unjustified, or that the medicos brought about the c-s in the first place. Some women take ages to be ready to hear this and if you tell them too soon they clam up or get very defensive, and it could very well feel like they brought it on themselves. That's why 'shoulding' people is not constructive. On the other hand, you may be talking to someone who weighed up all options, not just the ones convenient to a c-s and came to decide upon just that.
If you deal with people compassionately then adverse feelings they have really have far more to do with their side of things that what you have said or done.
Plus, if I were a person who had had a completely voluntary c-s, or was very much ok with my emerg c-s, or medically necessary c-s, I wouldn't care what others were saying about me cos I'm armed with one of my favourite tenets, "what others say about me behind my back is none of my business"! Every way I look at that, it's true. I realise lots of people just can't let go of what others say about them. What others THINK about me is even less under my control. What others think of my homebirth matters very little, because I was there and I know the score.
Anyhoo, I have to say I'm grateful you DID post, SB, cos a lot has been elicited and explored :)
Well said :clap::
You are right - there are a LOT of people that imply the natural, holistic approach in childbirth is the ONLY way a birth should pan out. I also agree that it is that silent atmosphere of expectation that contributes to birth disappointment.
My friend went through that very feeling. She knew she wanted an elective CS and when the time came for her decision she was faced with many people that threw at her it wasn't the "best way" for her or her baby.
Now if she wasn't as strong willed as she is, she could be pressured into giving in to the au natural approach to labour and birth and wind up with her own birth disappointment because it didn't meet her expectations or desires.
I've said before I am neither for nor against interventions at birth - I think the end result of happy and healthy mum and baby is the most important factor.
Ultimately it would be nice to have a country which supports any wish or plan of mum. Wouldn't it be nice if we had government funded homebirth as an option open to ALL women, private OB, hospital midwives and OB's as well as more choice in the public system on how women WANT to birth (so if someone wants to go to 44 weeks via the public hospital middies, they can! Or if someone wants an elective CS in the public system, it's given)
But while the power is in the hands of the government, less choice for women mean that more women are made to birth the way they don't want to. This ultimately will lead to birth disappointment as well and that isn't society's pressure - it is personal disappointment.
But surely not at a risk to the health of mother or baby?:
Should a woman who wants an elective CS at 35 weeks because she is 'over it' get one? Should a woman whose baby is at 44 weeks with placenta starting to fail, NOT be given a clear picture of what will happen should she refuse intervention?
I know they are OTT examples, I use them to try & make a point.
Yes ideally ALL women would be supported in any choice they make. But you would hope that those choices were informed & educated choices, that she fully understood all of the benefits and risks of what she was wanting to do.
You would hope that 'strong-willed' didn't mean 'close-minded' (and I'm not referring to your friend, just using your words ;)) - you would hope that a women making a particular choice was prepared to listen openly to gain a full understanding of what she is undertaking.
THAT is what BB is all about IMO - giving women that education & information so that when they make those choices, they do so being informed & knowing what they are doing.
It's not about making people feel cr** about their choices. It's about empowering those choices so that women are better able to make the right ones for them.
ETA - I post this as someone who has had 4 children, and really only became even a little bit informed when baking baby no.4. Do I wish I knew way back then what I know now? Hell yes!! If only I had had BB when I was PG with my first 3...
I concede that part of the reason I am so comfortable with my failure to BF my first two children, and with my induction & CS with umber 3, is due to the fact that I didn't know better. I am able to say 'oh well - I did the best I knew at the time' (and mean it). Maybe had I known more, I would feel more disappointed with how things went. But I would still rather have had the knowledge.
Well said Jasp :clap:
Like Maya I also think it's a great thread.... and as a BFing mum who simply desired to BF her child according to the WHO recommendations (to at least 2 years old) I can safely say that this is less socially acceptable than giving any child formula. I don't think any parenting group has the monopoly on negative opinions being directed at them ;) The great thing about BB is that there is a place here for everyone to have a cry when they have their turn at "coping it".
I think what it boils down to is that fully informing somebody is not implied opinion. It is simply fully informing somebody. I'd say the consequences of ignorance are worse than the consequences of being informed.
Great replies.
What really matters is that what ever choice someone makes, informed or otherwise, including the Mum who has had enough at 35 weeks, it is ultimately their choice. Not everyone wants to know it all; they have made their choices and that's it. Period. Respecting that is vital.
Unless it impacts on you, or your insight is asked for, you just have to let it go.
Hmmm.... not sure about that SB. BellyBelly's mission is to inform. If women want to remain uninformed then i would respectfully suggest they avoid BB. It's like going to school... sure the socialising thing is important... but if it's going to distract the people who want to be there to learn then those kids really need to take it elsewhere... time and place and all. ETA: just speaking for myself.
SB, I do think though that when you are truly happy with your choice you don't look for (or find) an atmosphere of disapproval.
I know there was outward disapproval about my choices and I dealt with them in my own thepecial way, I didn't notice an undercurrent as such because I wasn't looking for one iykwim?
With the whole 'there are a LOT of people that imply the natural, holistic approach in childbirth is the ONLY way a birth should pan out,' well yes, there are people like that... but even with my many, many birthy contacts and friends, MANY of them don't look at it that way and are respectful of needed c/s's. Some do think that way, but the very vast majority agree that c/s has its place and is important, it would be ridiculous for anyone to suggest that a vaginal birth should happen at ALL costs. I dont know ANYONE who thinks that.
If these people are around you and in your life, then find people to hang out with who are singing your tune or else the only other option is to accept that's their opinion and it's not yours. BB certainly doesn't have that view, I think MOST people would like a normal, natural birth where possible, but it doesn't always happen.
Most BB people join us during conception or early pregnancy. They know what we're like. They know what we say, they know our philosophy. But to come back after you have given birth, and had a c/s, then all of a sudden we're judgmental and unsupportive of that choice? How come we weren't before? People know what BB is all about, and if they feel this way and choose to keep coming back, there's nothing we can do. We don't preach ONE way. We might be passionate or suggest one way is more healthy in low risk women and give statistics and research as to why. But we NEVER say one option is best, for c/s or formula - there are normal ways to birth and feed - but nothing is ever best for one woman.
I am sure there are c/s forums out there. Join them if you wish. But if you're interested in growth, learning and empowerment, and perhaps seeing things in another light, then you're very welcome to stay and hang around at BB. We'll never give in from telling the truth to telling whats nicer to hear.
Whoa there Kelly,
I'm not having a dig at BB, it's usefulness or where I fit in. It doesn't hold a level in my life where it affects me in a bad way.
My opinion is about a wider community, the birthing world is bigger than BB so I was trying to talk about society in general.
For what its worth we have no issues with our choice if a needed CS. most importantly because we have educated ourselves, we are emotionally mature and we see that most empowering about our pregnancy and birth journey is a 5 week old little baby named Riley. He is what defines us.
I don't seek approval or opinion on our choice/s. We are happy. We have had setbacks that can be emotionally taxing, however we just float back to our little man and he makes it all worthwhile.
So just see my post as a broad opinion on society rather than BB.
Yep, do.:
But you realise it's not going to stop.....you might find next month someone tells you Riley should surely be on solids/sleeping though the night. Put a spoonful of brandy in his bottle, put him down you shouldn't hold him so much, why isn't he walking right on 12 months, he can't possibly go to a private/govt/boarding school.....
that's my broad opinion on society too. I just keep on trucking doing what I feel is best with the information I have.
No, not at the risk of the health of mother or baby. But if there is a mother who is petrified of a vaginal birth for whatever reason (be it physical or emotional) and understands the risks involved in a CS - why shouldn't she be given the choice?:
Absolutely. If the choice is INFORMED then who are we to say it isn't the right decision? If she has been given all the details and thus made a decision, who has the right to say if it's the "right" or "wrong" choice for her?:
I agree with this - something I said in an earlier post. NO ONE can make you feel anything you don't want to feel. I just think that some people in society are pressured by an unspoken "expectation" which is where Kelly's remarks about this site come into play.:
BB is very much about a holistic, natural, informed approach to Child Birth. It would be silly for someone absolutely in favour of an intervened birth to come on here and spout why they believe Home Birth is wrong......my point is that EVERY woman should have a choice in how she births provided it's informed. If that informed decision is a CS after she's read everything, who has the right to refuse her? Just like I've made the decision to Home Birth this time around after a bad hospital/OB/induction last time. I wish I had the information then as I do now. But if someone dares tell me that my HB choice is "dangerous" or "irresponsible" on this site, I'd tell them to find another forum which supports their thoughts because clearly their Google search took them to the wrong site!
Yes Kelly - I know of some - and they are the ones that choose to overlook the medical advice of Middies and OB's and are trying to take us back to the dark ages where infant and maternal mortality was high. I am not saying however, they these people can be found on BB. I am saying that these are the opinions that some people are faced with in society that can potentially cause them guilt in the way they birth.:
To give you an example, another of my friend's needed a CS for a placenta previa (something completely out of her hands and it wasn't as though she was going to make the decision to birth vaginally for obvious reasons). We were talking about her birth last weekend with a few of our friends, she was debriefing and saying how she is coming to terms with it and also that this is her one and only baby so she just needs to accept she'll not know what it is to birth vaginally.
One of the ladies that was sitting with us had the audacity to say "it's a shame you didn't get to experience labour even for a little bit. It must feel terrible to have your baby removed from you rather than being given the opportunity to birth her" WTF??? She then proceeded to explain how in MOST cases Placenta Previa's correct themselves and asked her if she was "sure" her OB had checked if this was the case prior to the CS. I almost climbed the table to stitch this lady's mouth shut.
I agree. You surround yourself with the energies around you that share the same belief system. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen and this inevitably can mean you cross a toxic birth personality along the way that can have you second guessing.:
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