Discipline versus punishment at kindy

[onthefly]

(By kindy, this is the 4 year old, prep type thing)

I'm interested in hearing some experiences & views on this. My son's school has a 'naughty corner' for the 'bad' kids. actually, it's called time out, but whatever, they know what that means. At home we avoid punishments and prefer discipline (as in, teaching).
Any thoughts? We have a parent meeting next week and was wondering about raising it - by first asking for further clarification on how it works since we've only had the 4-year-old version so far.
DS is a 'good' boy - in that he tends to be labelled that way and so will probably get extra chances and leeway where a 'bad' kid wouldn't - and probably won't spend much time in time out. he's already feeling left out, though.

Anyway, we're uncomfortable about it but wondering about best way to approach the conversation. I feel discipline is best handled by parents, but obviously if a child is very disruptive teachers need some means to manage the situation.

TIA

[UntoldAngel]

I would ask how they send them there and if they are talked to whilst there - so the child is still processing why they are in 'time out' and what they need to do differently, therefore learning from the experience and not just being removed without understanding why

If you were to tell the teacher that you didn't want your child to be sent to the 'time out chair' and to adopt a different approach, it *may* set your child up for exclusion by other students as he is getting different treatment should he need to be disciplined

I hope that makes sense....

[Floweryfields]

Is this a private school run kindy or in a childcare centre or what? Under the NQF which all early childhood facilities in the whole country are meant to come under this year, children must no be isolated. It clearly states that centres are not to use time out or naughty corners and there are heafty fines relating to doing so.

[onthefly]

hmmm. well this is our local public school (the 'kindy' term gets confusing because the states are all different). I don't know that they're isolated, as such, this is just what DS has told us. So I want to find that out first. Thanks for that info though, asugirl, that's good to know

UA - that's a good point. I don't know that it's really workable to be doing different things with different kids. I guess I'd like the idea of doing different things overall - but need more info on it first anyway.

[Phteven]

At our school they get three warnings then they are removed from the situation either by sitting in the corridor to do their work or going to another teacher's classroom.

I think that in a group dynamic they do need an option that removes children because clowns like my DS2 will continue to play to their audience if the teacher can't remove them. I don't see it as punishment so much as allowing the rest of the class to be able to continue to function without disruption. I also think that it's important that children realise that there are consequences for their actions - one day they have to work and offices don't have a naughty corner. It's 3 warnings and then you lose your income.

[Tegam]

Hmmm I disagree. I think that parents and teachers should show a united front with children and there should most definitely be some sort of consequence for negative behaviour at school.

[Trillian]

Our preschool doesn't do a naught mat/corner or anything, but if there is a child being toublesome or disruptive then the are removed from the group. It's really hard with little ones that age because they still need to learn that when they are at preschool they have to behave a certain way and that if they don't they will miss out. From what I've seen of our preschool over the years they are certainly into discipline as opposed to punishment and explaining to them why they can't do what they are doing.

[*Ang*]

At our school they get three warnings then they are removed from the situation either by sitting in the corridor to do their work or going to another teacher's classroom.

I think that in a group dynamic they do need an option that removes children because clowns like my DS2 will continue to play to their audience if the teacher can't remove them. I don't see it as punishment so much as allowing the rest of the class to be able to continue to function without disruption. I also think that it's important that children realise that there are consequences for their actions - one day they have to work and offices don't have a naughty corner. It's 3 warnings and then you lose your income.

All of the above.

At our private (catholic) school there has been the 123 - time out "discipline/punishment" in place since kindy. Currently my DD is in Yr 3 and they still do it. My mum teaches at another local catholic primary and they also have the same system. I don't see it as a bad thing at all.

Teachers cannot teach if a child is continually disrupting the classroom and it is unfair on the other children to put up with it. And unfortunately the reality is with large class sizes that a teacher cannot afford to sit down and spend a lot of time focussing on the individual who is being disruptive and spending lengths of time explaining to them what they did wrong...what is the rest of the class meant to do while this occurs? Kids need to learn that in certain situations there are rules or expectations of behaviour and if they "break" these that there is going to be a consequence. As an adult you also have consequences to your actions/behaviours.

I say leave the teachers and the discipline alone personally and leave the teachers to teach.

[Butterfly Dawn]

At our kindy the teacher makes the kid stand up- at the side of the class. They can stand there for 45mins whatever. I also know the teachers bring negative attention to that kid- if they are repeat offenders- things like - dont talk to ... they are a naught boy, do u want to be a naughty boy? (if they are sitting with ... and talking in class) we have 2 teachers and a helper for 44 kids, they cant spend alot of time "reasoning" with the same kids. and I dont want them too, why should my kid get less attention because he sits there quietly and does what he is told. ykwim?

[Phteven]

At our kindy the teacher makes the kid stand up- at the side of the class. They can stand there for 45mins whatever. I also know the teachers bring negative attention to that kid- if they are repeat offenders- things like - dont talk to ... they are a naught boy, do u want to be a naughty boy? (if they are sitting with ... and talking in class) we have 2 teachers and a helper for 44 kids, they cant spend alot of time "reasoning" with the same kids. and I dont want them too, why should my kid get less attention because he sits there quietly and does what he is told. ykwim?

IMO 45 minutes standing beside a wall is way OTT. For a kindy that's a lifetime. They're not going to learn anything there and personally if you made me stand by a wall for 45 minutes I would start pulling faces and disrupting other people to escape the boredom. Also IMO calling names like naughty boy isn't constructive. Children believe what you tell them and if you tell them they are naughty they will believe that and construct an identity around it.

[LuluHB]

DD1's kindy class last year they had three warnings and then they go into time out. Part way through the year she got a new teacher, who DD2 has for kindy this year, and they have a traffic light system - if you don't do as you are asked you move onto the amber traffic light, then again onto the red traffic light, then in theory its time out after that but it seems they don't need to get that far with most of the kids.

I have no problem with the time out corner. When you have between 20 and 25 kids in a class you need good discipline, and unfortunately the teacher and assistant can't be expected to adopt potentially 20 different brands of technique to fit in with each individual's home routine. From a purely selfish point of view, my kids are good, generally well mannered girls and do as they are asked - especially at school. I don't want their teacher caught up with a kid who isn't doing the right thing.

[Traveller]

At our kindy the teacher makes the kid stand up- at the side of the class. They can stand there for 45mins whatever. I also know the teachers bring negative attention to that kid- if they are repeat offenders- things like - dont talk to ... they are a naught boy, do u want to be a naughty boy? (if they are sitting with ... and talking in class) we have 2 teachers and a helper for 44 kids, they cant spend alot of time "reasoning" with the same kids. and I dont want them too, why should my kid get less attention because he sits there quietly and does what he is told. ykwim?

That's horrendous! 45 minutes standing up on their own is far too long for an active child. On what basis would a child be subjected to such a punishment? I also hate labelling kids. Children believe what you tell them, as Onyx says. Although your child is a good boy, what would happen if he failed to grasp a task being taught and they called him stupid? Because calling one child naughty is exactly the same bullying treatment from the staff and if I was aware of it as a parent I would be reporting them to the appropriate authorities. If the staff don't have time to reason with the children then imho they are understaffed, but that doesn't give them an excuse to resort to namecalling.

When my DS2 was at kindy, aged 4, I actually withdrew him part way through the year because of their inability to discipline in a constructive manner. They gave children no structure, then openly criticised them for choosing the wrong activities. They were also discouraged from asking for help, and on one occasion my son was accused of being unable to know where he was born, and told he was wrong. This was during circle time and in front of the whole class, and towards his time there he went from a fun loving confident child to a shell of himself who was afraid to speak up and unsure of his opinions. You can be certain I reported the kinder for their actions. At school there is a warning system, as described by PP's above. It works well because there is a clear guideline for behaviour and consequence, and problem children can be removed from the situation without being humiliated in class or called names.

[Rouge]

We had the thinking chair. It wasn't seen as a punishment, but an aid to help in calming down or thinking about what alternative to x may be. They were big on discussing alternatives rather than fobbing it off.

I don't like labels. "Naughty" "Liar" "Troublemaker" "Class Clown" all it takes is for a child to hear this said about them once, just once and they believe it. I've seen teachers create labels and as a result cause problems with future teachers and so forth. Children are people too, and sometimes personalities clash... but this doesn't mean they are trouble, or they are always naughty etc.

Thinking and discussing behaviour is another way of learning for the ENTIRE class. And if done in such a way not to cause embarrassment or shame, it works really well. Sure it's not going to work with every child, but most schools/kinders IMO should work with children on a child by child basis. I hate it when it's assumed that some children are favoured. No they are taught differently, they are all different. Just as with my kids whilst the boundaries are the same, the way to get them understood and the consequences are not identical for both children. Both of my children are polar opposites and if I applied one parenting style with them both it would be disastrous. A classroom is no different. And it doesn't NEED to be hard work.

[Butterfly Dawn]

that was 1 teacher I worked with, but I know it is a form of punishment that all teachers use. The kids get use to and its better then having them beat the children which is what they could do up till a few years ago- and in small small places probably still do.
The kids standing for really long periods are the 1s who cannot participate in class- constantly talk, play and distract the other kids. The pressure to perform well is pushed right from 2yrs old.
It is different in China and they expect different things from kids. Also- most of these kids arent like ours. They arent running around in gardens after school, going to the beach on the weekend or playing sports etc, they are expected to sit still from baby onwards.
Im am not saying its right, or I agree with it, just sharing what they do here.

[onthefly]

I totally understand that teachers need tools to deal with disruptive behaviour. I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of public shaming and/or labelling of children. I will have to find out exactly how they implement this and how they talk about it.

Right now, my son seems to think he's missing out on something because he never gets time out.

[Butterfly Dawn]

thats so cute

[*Belle*]

At DD school kinder, they have a blue card rule - if they are naughty they get a blue card, whether it be in the playground or in class. DD just said if you get a few of those blue cards you have to see the principal. One boy just got a blue card this week, so its the first shes ever seen. She also said they have to sit on a seat away from the class for 5mins to think about what they have done.