How long will the tears last - should I pull him out?

[Rouge]

That breaks my heart. As I'm sure it does yours. Have you told him how you spend your day? I used to make up really boring things like "Waited in line at the post office/bank etc" or "I cleaned the Bathroom" etc. This way DS didn't think he was missing out. I also would make sure I socialised with the other children as it teaches them how to as well ie. "That's a cool shirt." or "What did you do on the weekend?" Or "Do you know DS likes xxx." The other kids like it when adults include them and it helps break the ice for your kids. Another thing is to give him something special to hold onto. Buy a blank key and say it's a special key for xyz, tell him you're worried you might lose it and you know how good he is at looking after things and could he keep it safe for you whilst you "Insert boring activity in here". Tie it to a piece of rope and attach it to something or pop it in his pocket. Once they have a sense of responsibility or control in that situation it does help. If you aren't time poor maybe say to him you are going to take him late today so that you can have morning tea together so you don't have to do xyz and you can spend time with him. Get to know the children's names and ask him about those kids, talk about what stories he has been reading or how big the train track was etc. And next time you go to the fridge tell him you need a new painting/drawing etc and that xyz (aunt/uncle/grandparent) was commenting on how good their work is and they really want one too etc. Another tip is so that he has an idea of what time you'll be there so we say "After story time I'll be there to pick you up." And if you're still finding it hard let him stay home for a day so that you can do the boring chores and show him how boring it is on those days

Obviously when working it's harder to do these things but if you're at home it helps him to understand that he's actually going to go and have fun.

Engaging with his social group really does help because it enables him to see how they converse through you, and on the off chance it is related to shyness this will help a lot.

Another option is (not sure if it's something you could do being pg) but see if some of the other kids that he plays with have days where they are at home and see if one of the parents would like a playdate, often when kids have friends over in their own territory this helps and it also helps with one on one relating that sometimes kids need.

And another big thing would be is to make sure you have mummy dates with him. Tell him it's something you get to do special with him because now he's a big boy and goes to "School" and you miss that. Even if it's just to the park or to the milk bar to get an icy pole the fact that he is with you on his own will help, especially if he thinks that his sister gets to be with you when he doesn't (this happened with DD when DS was little). But that also might not be a problem either.

Kids go through periods of anxiety just like we do, and sometimes its just a matter of feeling heard. I was told once by a wise woman is that one of the biggest mistakes we make with our kids is that we dismiss their feelings because to us it seems trivial or there can be no alternative. Yet we as adults vent often and would be quite upset if all we got way "Oh don't worry about it, you'll be fine" or "You're being very silly". And since then I've made a concerted effort to ensure that even if I can't change it I listen and acknowledge, because sometimes that's all they want.

(sorry for blabbing I know this is a very jumbled post).

[Mummato2]

Mummato2 - that post is scarily relevant!

Today is Fit Kids day - an activity he usually loves. He was all good to go until it was time to leave and then he had a huge meltdown. I bundled him in the car regardless but when we got there he insisted that he hated Fit Kids and carried on like a pork chop, kicking and crying etc.

I was pretty angry with him - I didn't want to give in to him because I know for a fact he enjoys this activity. But I wasn't going to pay $13 for him to cry and sulk and carry on for an hour. I know he didn't get a good sleep last night thanks to DD and from experience I also know he cannot be reasoned with when he is tired. At the same time I couldn't help but see the similarity between this situation and daycare.

So because he refused to go to Fit Kids he doesn't get any TV today and he was going to get a lemonade as a treat today and he doesn't get that either.

That caused another meltdown but I sat quietly with him and asked him if he thought his behaviour was good or naughty. He immediately said that he was naughty. So I have explained that if he was a good boy he would get good things and if he isn't a good boy then he doesn't get good things. That seemed to sink in.

I also explained that he had missed out on a lot of fun which hadn't seemed to have occurred to him. I linked this with school and how Mummy and Daddy take him to things so he can have fun and learn which he also seemed to listen to.

So I've hardened my heart a little bit at the moment!

Oh wow! Reading this another thing has come to mind.

Please understand that I am not really a "gentle parent" in the sense that if it were a case of battle of the wills, I don't let the kids give in......I believe the parents have a role to play and sometimes it means hardening towards your child.

Now, something you may not realise, but this is very much an age where children are beginning to challenge the status quo and how you react to these challenges will pave the way for where his boundaries will lay.

In the case of this little boy I was telling you about - it was pure manipulation and attention seeking behaviour. I say this because while we were doing things HE liked and had fun with, we were ok - the moment the pace changed and we did something he didn't like, the manipulative behaviours would start. A couple of times I'd get on the phone and pretend to talk to someone - he would stop what he was doing long enough to see if I was calling his mum. If I wasn't, then he'd kick off again and if I did he would instantly stop crying thinking mum is coming and give me half an hour of normal behaviour until he'd start again because he'd know she wasn't coming. To me, if there was a real issue, the crying wouldn't stop....

Now please understand that this is just my opinion but I believe this age group knows manipulative behaviours but in fairness to them - they also don't have the emotional maturity to reason different scenarios in their minds prior to acting. So when one of these moments come up - I think you played it really well. Tell him what he's missing, don't allow him to have "fun" for the day at home with mummy and make it extremely boring - he'll soon realise where the fun is.

I also think attempting to talk to them is important AFTER the meltdown and ask them to tell you why they felt that way.

Keep me posted on how you get on xxx

[Feijoa Mum]

I am lucky enough to never had this with my boys so I can only imagine the stress and anguish this is causing you.
But in my perhaps biased opinion I wouldnt pull him out.
You say he doesnt need to go but what about for you? You have DD home with you and a new baby on the way so having him in daycare is a bit of time for you.
If he is happy and settles when you leave then to me doing what he does, he knows he is pulling at your heart strings. Stay there out of sight just to put your mind at rest that he really does settle easily.
Have you tried the rewards chart? No crying or been upset for two days and he gets a picnic at the park, or a trip to the pools or something like that.

Keep at it, it has only been a month and im sure he will give up once he realises that Mum is not giving in on this one.

[Curly]

Thanks Rouge there's a couple of good suggestions there and a couple of things that I have already tried.

I've already told him what boring things I do when he is at daycare (fill the car up with petrol, take DD to the doctor) but he begged and pleaded to come with me to do those things! And yet he says to me that it is more boring at home with Mummy than it is at school. I might have to tell him some fibs like I'll be cutting DD's toenails - he hates having his toenails cut with a passion so he might be glad to be at school away from that!

It is only 2 days a week, and only till 2pm - the carers I think expect me to leave him there longer but I don't plan on it, I think this enough. He knows when I am going to pick him up, after rest time.

I've been probing him for names of kids he has played with yet but he says he doesn't know them...I quite believe this, I've modelled a couple of times how to say "My name is DS, what's your name?" but he just laughs at me, I think he's a bit bashful to say that. That's okay though, I know he has taken note and when he is ready he will do that.

I've had quite a few chats with him, trying to figure out what it is about daycare he doesn't like but the problem here is that he is really only just starting to grasp the concept of "why?" so if I say something like "why did you rip that piece of paper?" he will look at me blankly so I substitute "what made you rip that piece of paper?" and he will reply "my hands". If I ask him what makes him sad he says "my tears."

I really want to hear him, but I'm worried about putting words in his mouth "is it because you miss mummy, is it because you don't like the other kids?". I agree that you shouldn't dismiss kids' feelings, I was brought up like that, as I mentioned in an earlier post. But the Fit Kids incident today means that I am questioning his motivation a bit. I stay with him at Fit Kids so I KNOW how much he likes it but if nobody had seen this before they would have sworn I was making him do something he hated.

I often have trouble getting out of the house anyway because he doesn't want to go out and sometimes I am too tired and too pregnant to make him get in the car - say to do the shopping or whatever. And if I do get him in the car he will then refuse to get out...and then if I make him get out the whole trip is miserable...and then when we get back in the car he says he doesn't want to go home.

I casually asked him this afternoon if he thought that if he cried and screamed would Mummy and Daddy give him what he wants and he nodded and said yes!

So I am inclined to think that it is something he needs to get used to combined with him just naturally not being a spontaneous child anyway.

Thank you so much everyone with your patience with me and this thread...it has really helped getting it all out into words to clarify my thoughts.

ETA: Usually when I "make" him go out he winds up really enjoying it - I just realised I made it sound worse than it really is. It usually helps to tell him advance what's happening rather than just spring it on him so he has time to process it a little. He's a pretty cautious kid - not a scaredy cat, he just never does anything without thinking about it first. Eg I totally trust him to not run out on the road, run away from me, go into the pool alone...he's always been like that. Everyone used to marvel at how good he was walking alongside me at the shops when he was 18 months old. And he won't try anything new without coaxing.

[Mummato2]

It sounds like you have a nice cautious son - and I guess that's part of your struggles at the moment.

I wonder if the change in daycare coincided with him realising (actually realising) that mummy is having another baby?

Perhaps this is his way of adjusting to that thought?

A 2 year gap with his sis means he probably didn't have the maturity to process reason but perhaps he remembers how he felt when she came home and is struggling with forward thinking with bubba 3 (just a thought - I could be way off)

Keep going with what you're doing - I agree not to put thoughts in his mouth re: why his behaviour is what it is. Let him vocalise it to you when he can

[Curly]

Okay I'm officially beside myself.

DS didn't go today. The tears started last night with him telling me he doesn't like the kids or the teachers. This morning we just had whimpering and complete passive resistance - refusing to get out of bed, refusing to eat breakfast, refusing to cooperate with getting dressed.

It was DH who made the call to not take him today. This is supposed to be making our lives easier and it is a complete PITA. It's just getting worse.

So DS has had a really boring day today - he said so, but he has also said he would rather be bored with Mummy than go to school.

I don't think I have much choice - I'm going to have to yank him out. I can only presume that for whatever reason he really just doesn't want to be there. I'm so confused because I don't know if I'm going to be giving in to him by doing this...but if he doesn't want to be there that badly then is there any reason to make him go?

[Janie]

hun, this all sounds really tough for you. In my very unimportant opinion, I would be pulling him out. It doesn't really sound like it's working for anyone!!! One day he won't be able to wait to get away from you , but for now, just enjoy the fact that he wants to be with you, and make the most of it. I personally wouldn't worry at all that you're 'giving in' to him - we are not blessed with children so that we can make them into whatever we want........they are little people with their own thoughts, feelings, and emotions. He is trying to tell you something, and it may just be as simple as that he prefers being home with mummy! Go and have a cup of tea hun xoxo

[Mummato2]

Darling - don't be beside yourself - you need to do what sits right with you.

As for the giving into him - that's something that you can manage easily enough. Just explain to him the reason he won't be playing with the other kids at care anymore is because *insert any reason you choose that does not reinforce his refusal has won*

You may find that you want to try again the year before he starts Kindy (in fact I highly recommend this) and you may find that the "pre-school" model sits better with him than the long daycare model.

Good luck with everything

[Rouge]

I think you've made the right choice. If something is upsetting him that much then that's pretty real. I don't believe that children at 3 can manipulate in this way. It's like saying an adult who gets upset and refuses to go to a party is being manipulative. No they aren't, they are taking control of a situation. Now yes it's inconvenient for you, but perhaps another centre would suit him better. Sometimes things go on without our knowing, and this is especially prevalent at CC & Kinder because the ratio of adult to child is not perfect to see all KWIM? And even at our Kinder they believe if a child is that upset they will give them a term to settle and if they don't it is advised they try again Term 4 and redo it next year. Just like every child isn't school ready not every child is Kinder/CC ready. My DD was going to after school care about 18 months ago as I was working and whilst she never really complained when she went when I decided to look into work again she burst into tears. She hated afterschool care, why? Because she missed her brother. Next year DS is in school and I will be working again but she is ecstatic to know that her brother will be with her. Now I do realise not everyone's situation can be flexible to a child's distress, but in my case (and in yours) if you have the flexibility then I say listen to your child.

[onthefly]

It's not 'giving in', he's expressing a real need and you're responding.

[Ginger]

i totally agree with Janie on this one. It honestly sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. Just give him some time.

[Curly]

Thank you so much for your support everyone - this thread has been fabulous for me.

Went and told them today I was pulling him out. DS was very keen for me to do this LOL. He hopped in the car and said "I'm going to say NO SCHOOL to the teachers!"

He came in with me, saw his carer and shouted from the doorway "I'm not coming back to school!" and then said "let's go Mum!" Refused to set foot in the room.

So I explained to them why and they were all "well you've got to do what you've got to do" and reiterated that he'd been "having a ball" there. They did also imply that maybe I was being manipulated but I said that if he really didn't want to be there that badly, he didn't have to be. And there was a bit of a dire warning that he might be even worse when it was time for kindy or school but I flat out said that argument didn't hold any water with me because he would be 2 years older when he starts school.

DH has a theory that because we have moved so often (3 interstate moves in the last 18 months) that we are DS' only constant and he needs more time to settle before he feels safe being away from us. I told them that and interestingly they were inclined to agree that could be a factor.

Oh well. He's not going anymore, he's happy, I'm happy the decision has been made.

Thank you so much again everyone for all your input.

[Pandora]

Im glad you've made a decision you are all happy with.

I think the moving would definitely be a factor, and possibly your pg also.

[onthefly]

I think your DH's theory really makes sense - he probably just needs more time.

[Janie]

You sound happy with your decision, good for you . I totally agree with you re. the school thing, things will likely be completely different then. Sorry, but I really had a good laugh reading about your trip to the centre to let them know........your DS sounds adorable! I'm really pleased he's so happy with the outcome.

Yep, your husband might be onto something - given that, it mightn't be that long before your DS is happy to settle into CC

[kate81]

We've just moved up here to Queensland and in the absence of 3yo kinder up here in Qld I have put DS into daycare twice a week - just from 9.00am-2.00pm. DS is 3 years old.

I had a great mother's group in Victoria and I want him to have the opportunity to play with kids, I know he is missing his little friends from MG. Plus I'm 6 months pregnant, DD is 15 months and I'm having a couple of health issues with this pregnancy so we are home a lot more than I would like, and that is going to be even worse once Number 3 arrives. So I really think this would be good for him.

He hasn't been to daycare before, he's always been home with me. I did try and put him in daycare when he was 10 months old but it went so badly I decided not to return to work. Then when he was 18 months old he was doing a delayed speech course through the RCH and they had organised qualified carers to look after the kids while the parents were given the theory in the next room, but DS was so hysterical he wound up sitting on my lap for the entire 6 week course.

So this time around I really thought he was ready and the first day he was SO excited about going to "school" as he called it we even had to pack his pencil case into his backpack. And now it's all gone downhill.

He cries nonstop for a good hour and a half before he goes - DH actually has to take him because he gets more hysterical when Mummy takes him. Last week I couldn't physically get him in the car because he was kicking out and running away.

But when I go to pick him up he is so excited to see me and he tells me he's had fun at school. However, when we talk about it at home, he tells me he felt sad at school because he missed me and he doesn't like school and doesn't want to go. I try and ask him about the fun or happy things he did and he will then tell me he didn't have fun and only did sad things . The carers tell me he calms down almost immediately after he is dropped off and he is fine the whole time he is there. They have also said that it is normal for it to be all exciting the first week and then the kids to be all "been there done that, I don't need to come back" and then get upset.

DH and I don't know what to do. Should we persevere a bit longer - this has been 4 weeks now. Really, DS doesn't HAVE to go, he could stay home with me, but Mummy is pretty boring at the moment and DS even says that he is bored sometimes. The carers have told me to persevere "otherwise he'll be a nightmare when he has to go to school" but this doesn't hold a lot of water with me...he would be 2 years older by the time he starts prep.

I guess I'm just putting him in care for socialisation reasons. He does go to playgroup and swimming lessons and a couple of other activities and I know he wants to play with other little boys...I seem to only be meeting people with girls!

Will it improve? Is this normal? I don't want to be putting up with over an hour of crying every morning it is a daycare morning and I don't want him to be there if he doesn't want to be and he doesn't have to be...

Hi there my children were exactly the same and find it hard seperating even now they are ay school. I think joining a playgroup so he can get social stimulation and learn new skills is a good way start being comfortable to play knowing your right there, if you have just moved he might still be getting used to that too. i never had the heart to perservere with child care, if your child is sooo disstressed don't force him there you will have the kinda option for him at 4 and you could deal with the seperation anxiety then when its not an all day thing at kinda like it is at creche i think we should listen to our kids if u had a job that u hated would would u do?? ask yourself that if u were that upset going to work would you go???? He will have plenty of time in the future do adjust to seperation from mum maybe its just a bit too premature an he's not ready to be away from you yet. I suggest playgroup mothers group playdates ect first. May sister just moved to redcliffe from Vic an she moving up to sunshine caost so i know your prob just getting used to your new surroundings too. Hope this helps and good luck