Un-schooling Discussion

[Jellyfish]

I don't think you have to have a child in the system to be invested or involved in it improving education has interested me since before I even had children. Most community based giving I am involved in doesn't impact me directly actually, I would think most people are similar in that sense. And unschooling gives me a lot of free time to do so! If it is so costly for the Government for families to choose unschooling, well money talks right and maybe more opting out will be motivate the Government to entice them back? Who really knows, probably it would just lead them to making it illegal lol. It isn't black and white, some of my reservations about choosing this lifestyle was how selfish it felt towards society. And I can't lie it makes me happy, I enjoy it immensely, I get as much out of it as my children definitely. But I tend to think people who are happy and secure are more able to invest outwardly too and that is something I try to do as much as possible.

I don't know that unschooling (or home educating) attracts a limited financial demographic? Maybe there is research about this but I definitely wouldn't imagine it being well off people mostly, maybe more upper lower and bottom middle would be my guess but I'm not acutely aware of others finances. There are obviously costs to educate at home but not as much as you'd think and it can be customized to your situation and change as that does - more when you have more, less when you have less - because you control the amount invested. Our co-op organises a lot of things for free and low cost from excursions to experiences to camps, library for free books, thrift shops and eBay and buy swap sell groups for all sorts of resources, buying art supplies with others in bulk and splitting or having a communal pool of things to rotate between families, rocks and sticks and mud are the best toys, recycled goods and tip shops, places like reverse garbage. Art gallary, the general museum and botanical gardens are all free and there are a lot of free or low cost community events (cultural and such). My Facebook event feed is always full, I could do something cheap and interesting everyday for our kids outside the home if we wanted because there are home educating groups all over our city all organizing things. There is a lot of places you can save money too by not having a commitment to school such as food - having a family lunch is much cheaper for us then having to pack lunches for some and make it for others and all of that and we have more time to grow food and to cook food which helps out. (And maybe there is some sort of long term health savings for the Government having a family with more time to invest emotionally, to invest on keeping active and cooking healthy and being less stressed? That would be an interesting study because I think we should all be working a bit less). I do think it is more affordable than it seems.

Luna - I do know personally one person who is part time schooling, her daughter and my eldest were in kindy together. It is really difficult and was definitely quite the fight to organise, I'm not sure many would choose to maintain that situation for long because it is quite stressful and unfortunately I think ends up kind of the worst of both worlds.

Have been a bit busy the last few days, we decided it was time to dedicate an entire room to artistic pursuits so been organising that. Here it is if anyone is interested to see it

[Heaven]

I definitely think, for us, home educating is much cheaper than it would be to send our kids to school. But I'm not taking into account loss of second income. I have always been a SAHM and intended to be for a lot longer anyway so we never factored an income from me into any of our plans. It means it will be a while longer before we buy our own house but that's a choice we made. We preferred this lifestyle and HS was important to us so we're happy to wait for other stuff.

I am surprised there aren't more unschoolers, or homeschoolers on BB. It just seemed such a natural progression from gentle parenting to me. As we got closer and closer to school age I began to question things. I had spent all this time raising them the way I wanted just to have them sent off into a school that was based more on rewards and punishments. I don't feel learning is something to reward or punish for at all. So my first goal was just to homeschool for the first few years because I thought school started too young and I wanted them to be a bit older and more sure of who they were themselves before they went to school. I think the biggest influence in a young child's life should be their parents, and I felt it would be harder to be that while giving up so much of my time with them. Now though, seeing how well they are doing and how much fun we are having I see us doing this for a lot longer.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Not sure what you're saying, Heaven. Are you implying you love your children more that us working gentle mothers, who have to have others look after our children, often differently to how we would do ourselves? I would love to be a sahm, only feeding my family takes priority. I have to put needs (food, home, clothes...) before desires. An education is great, however you get it, and Liebs is at a good school. Just cos I would prefer otherwise doesn't mean it's bad.

Your comment that school is at odds with gentle parenting really rankles. Cos while school has so many failings, it does not punish people for not being clever (though I would agree exams feel like that) and there are many, many caring, loving and gentle teachers out there.

[Jaycee]

Not sure what you're saying, Heaven. Are you implying you love your children more that us working gentle mothers, who have to have others look after our children, often differently to how we would do ourselves? I would love to be a sahm, only feeding my family takes priority. I have to put needs (food, home, clothes...) before desires. An education is great, however you get it, and Liebs is at a good school. Just cos I would prefer otherwise doesn't mean it's bad.

Your comment that school is at odds with gentle parenting really rankles. Cos while school has so many failings, it does not punish people for not being clever (though I would agree exams feel like that) and there are many, many caring, loving and gentle teachers out there.

I didn't take that away from Heaven's comments at all... she wasn't bagging those gentle parents that decide to go down the mainstream path at all, more so that she thought there would be more BB'ers going down the unschooling / homeschooling path as she sees it as a natural progresssion in the gentle parenting process... and she's right, it certainly follows the philosophy of gentle parenting.

[Heaven]

Of course not. All I was talking about was myself and how I came to my own decision. My choice doesn't imply anything about anyone else. I have said before that I believe everyone makes the best choice for their children. Sorry if it read that way but that was some of the thoughts that led to my decision so I'm not sure what to say?

[Heaven]

I didn't take that away from Heaven's comments at all... she wasn't bagging those gentle parents that decide to go down the mainstream path at all, more so that she thought there would be more BB'ers going down the unschooling / homeschooling path as she sees it as a natural progresssion in the gentle parenting process... and she's right, it certainly follows the philosophy of gentle parenting.

Thanks Jaycee, that's exactly what I meant.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Questionning why more don't do this, the saying home/unschooling is the "natural progression" for a gentle parent, saying that it's to spend more time with your children at an important life stage, then saying school is a harsh, punitive environment is, to me, an indicator you find my parenting choices (other carers from age 1, normal school, see Liebs for an hour a day on school days) wanting. And not as high on the gentle parenting scale as you.

I suppose I feel it more as I do not like my choices and, in an ideal world, would be doing things differently, so it is my filters coming into play too.

Well, DS needs to eat. That's my reason. Your pondering answered.

[Heaven]

I only said it felt like a natural progression for me, and my parenting (which is unique and not exactly the same as anyone else's), but considering I share a lot of the same views on things as others on BB I was just surprised there wasn't a bigger HS community on BB. Definitely not putting anyone down. And I do want to spend more time with them at this stage. I think everyone does! But that's not to say if you can't or you choose school you are doing the wrong thing. I also didn't say school was 'a harsh punitive environment'. I was saying that it does work on rewards and punishments though, which is true. The world often does! But coming from an 'unconditional parenting' perspective (not sure if you've read any Alfie Kohn stuff?) I decided I wanted to wait until they were a little older, a little more sure of themselves before sending them (initially, that's what I was thinking anyway).

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I agree that schools start early (we have a national curriculum from birth in the UK, and the govt wish to introduce tests at age 4 to see how children are doing with this). I personally think that children should be at home with a parent, or parent-figure, until at least 7. I get where you're coming from there, completely.

Did not happen for us. But I accept the trade-off as I like food.

I do want to stick up for schools now, as I do know unconditional parenting and I use a lot of that in my teaching. But this isn't the place. Nor is it used by all teachers, so it is often just luck of the draw.

[wysiwyg]

I don't think you have to have a child in the system to be invested or involved in it improving education has interested me since before I even had children. Most community based giving I am involved in doesn't impact me directly actually, I would think most people are similar in that sense. And unschooling gives me a lot of free time to do so! If it is so costly for the Government for families to choose unschooling, well money talks right and maybe more opting out will be motivate the Government to entice them back? Who really knows, probably it would just lead them to making it illegal lol. It isn't black and white, some of my reservations about choosing this lifestyle was how selfish it felt towards society. And I can't lie it makes me happy, I enjoy it immensely, I get as much out of it as my children definitely. But I tend to think people who are happy and secure are more able to invest outwardly too and that is something I try to do as much as possible.

I don't think you are that far off JF - the more people opting out the more people might take notice. I don't think it is selfish towards society at all - I think we need some people to be doing it, as experiences from it are valid for other approaches, if no one was doing it we couldn't learn from it, some children it might be a real necessity to educate this way also. I also think we do need people who are not working outside the home who can take part in many of the community based things and keep them going (ABA for one). My real only point is I think it is unrealistic to think it is a choice for everyone, to think everyone can make the choice - that bit of unreality in the literature and the fact it all says things like get rid of your second car and not eat out, have both parents work part time (like it is simply a matter of wanting to do that will make it happen - unfortunately part-time work is not that easy to come by for all, and for men in particular can be tricky) or get a nanny so you can still work (like nannies are some free or very cheap resource) - I find incredibly annoying, and actually I don't think it is helpful to anyone.

I don't know that unschooling (or home educating) attracts a limited financial demographic? Maybe there is research about this but I definitely wouldn't imagine it being well off people mostly, maybe more upper lower and bottom middle would be my guess but I'm not acutely aware of others finances.

I don't think it is mostly well off people either and I think your guess is about right - but in my mind that is still quite a limited financial demographic. I will see if I can find any research.

I don't see home educating as expensive apart from due to the loss of one persons income - but that income can be a significant amount - I really think the notion of a secondary or additional income needs to be got away from because it brings with it the connotations of it just being extra, there for the luxuries - the whole do away with your second car, stop eating out and you can do without it - but that notion is very pervasive in all areas not just home educating.

I am surprised there aren't more unschoolers, or homeschoolers on BB.

I think a few reasons, there aren't so many parents with school age children on BB. There are probably lots of forums for home educators that people use - BB is definitely more skewed to the very early years. Home educating isn't as accessible to all as Gentle Parenting (see all my previous points about it isn't a choice for all) - home educating has a far bigger impact financially than staying home with children just until they start school, a one income family for all the school years can be a massive financial commitment. I also think that their is not as much scientific evidence about detrimental effects of school as there is in the gentle parenting world around early brain development and attachment etc. therefore plenty of people believe that school isn't that bad, many of the claims about how detrimental it is, aren't really backed up by research yet, or by peoples own experiences of school.

I agree that schools start early (we have a national curriculum from birth in the UK, and the govt wish to introduce tests at age 4 to see how children are doing with this). I personally think that children should be at home with a parent, or parent-figure, until at least 7. I get where you're coming from there, completely.

As I was UK educated I do follow what is going on in the UK, and some of it really is quite horrifying and appears to be progressing against all the research. I follow Save Childhood on FB so stories are always popping up, along with from friends who teachers there. While I support the fight against testing at 4 and making the early years less about play and more about structured learning - the attitude of that site and Mothers at Home matter towards working mums I think is terrible and does not help their cause. I believe more in that it is the types of activity - e.g. free play that are important in the early years whether at home or in a daycare or school setting rather than who you are with. The Finnish system where school starts at 7 but free daycare is provided before then, allowing a balance of work where people want to work is more where it should be heading.

[Ginger]

I'm a gentle parent but I think going to school is extremely important. I breastfed, co slept, babywore etc etc, but my kids love their school and are developing into amazing little humans in that environment.

[Jellyfish]

I do see home educating (and unschooling) as a progression of my parenting ideals and have also wondered why there is a low representation here where many seem to have shared my path prior to school. I tend to see school as an option for outsourcing an area of parental responsibility which can be necessary in certain circumstances or desired in others but that when possible, the home as a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about and in the world is the default. Obviously others disagree and it would be interesting to find the point in which our thoughts diverge on the matter and why when there is so much else we agree upon.

[wysiwyg]

I do see home educating (and unschooling) as a progression of my parenting ideals and have also wondered why there is a low representation here where many seem to have shared my path prior to school. I tend to see school as an option for outsourcing an area of parental responsibility which can be necessary in certain circumstances or desired in others but that when possible, the home as a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about and in the world is the default. Obviously others disagree and it would be interesting to find the point in which our thoughts diverge on the matter and why when there is so much else we agree upon.

Is interesting you choose the word outsourcing - in one way I like that because I work in IT and we outsource alot of work to India - and the way I see my relationship with the schooling system is much the same way as the outsourcing works in practice at work - the outsource company does a very predefined set of work that does not require the same high skill level, they don't guide the overall intention of the software or decide on the level of quality it should be at - the control, key elements and strategy all come from us. Just like the overall philosophy around learning and education I think still comes from the parents rather than the school - so even if a child goes to school, the overall framework of their learning (and learning is 24x7 - that is one of the things I like about unschooling is that that fact is recognised and promoted) can still be child-centered.

For school - I am outsourcing a small element of my childrens overall learning/education - I am not outsourcing it in total and I am not outsourcing parental responsibility just some hours of direct parental involvement. The home is still a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about the world - is just they are not in the nest all the time.

I do think it is interesting though that there are many things that are pushed by parents / or parents are interested in (attitudes to homework would be one) once their children get to school - that are at odds with the way they parented a pre-school infant - I do think there is a disconnect somewhat.

Home educating is at one end of a line of implementation of attachment parenting int the schooling years, and many people probably do not feel they have to go right to that end of the line to stay true to their ideals. Like most things those at the ends tend to assume that everyone else is at the other end - when actually most people are in somewhere between the two points, sometimes very close to the home educating end but not home educating.

[Jellyfish]

Outsourcing hours of direct parental involvement is a much more accurate way to describe it, thank you. That is what I was trying to explain, clumsily, that it is an area of parental responsibility first and foremost but that one can outsource some of the practicality of to school (which I agree is not the entirety of learning). It is definitely a spectrum, that is a good reminder.

[wysiwyg]

I have found a blog I really like - "Project Based Homeschooling - self-directed, learner-centered education whether you homeschool or not" - I really like the fact that the focus is all about self directed learning rather than the method (e.g. homeschooling, unschooling etc) - is quite easy to read and see how you would use the ideas combined with going to school. There isn't that much that is an entirely new concept to me, but more that it puts into words and links to research things that I have thought intuitively were the right approach for us.

[Jellyfish]

Have you read Lori's book? I thought it was a good read so if you haven't, I'd recommend it. Project based learning is really compatible with unschooling, that's kind of what unschooling is; being actively present for your children to utilize while they pursue meaningful and purposeful inquiry and demonstrate the fruits of that in various ways. We don't have a dedicated time for projects because it would be fairly redundant when DD1 spends a good chunk of her time already engaged in that sort of thing but I can see how the concept would be helpful for others, especially for the parent to really letting go of distractions and honing their focus. I also love Reggio and provocations (which is essentially what stewing is about) so that is something that influences me a lot too. Unschooling really can incorporate anything which is sort of the beauty of it; to me unschooling isn't really about the method but more all the things that happen behind that (which is how I've always seen gentle/attachment parenting - it isn't about the choices but what is behind them). It is the relationship you have with your child and the relationship you and your child have with learning, it is the pursuit of inspiring a child in taking ownership of their motivation and running with it, it is a way of being really present for your children and really seeing them and their interests, it is imaging those times in your life when you are alive with curiosity and ideas and your hands can barely keep up with your brain and moving towards a place where your child can inhabit that space for as much of their time as possible. I am coming around to the idea of school being involved in some families reality of that, it is hard because I just think school really interferes and interrupts the process so much and becomes such a dominate force purely because of the time that has to be invested into it that it feels pretty incompatible but it really is the feelings behind it all and not the choices that are important so I don't know.

One thing that we do that others might be interested in doing is I set up an email and gave that to family members to email through about what they are up to, photos they have taken, interesting things they have stumbled upon and just anything they want to share with the girls which creates a huge library of spring boards for them (and also keeps them close to distant family members). We have bird watchers, my parents travel overseas twice a year, DP's parents grow the majority of their own food so there is all sorts of different perspectives and inspiration coming into our learning from these emails. And then we email back to them about where we have gone with what they've brought to us (we don't always pursue everything but even still the introduction could be valuable later) so especially for our DD1 it gives her a way of reflecting and sharing too and starting to build a collaborative relationship with others. At the moment I transcribe but it will be good typing and spelling practice as they develop that ability too.

[wysiwyg]

Have you read Lori's book? I thought it was a good read so if you haven't, I'd recommend it.

Yes I have read the book - I agree is a very good read - I also like the forum on her website. I have found lots of the information useful in just how to extend the normal things we do, and also is interesting from an adult learning perspective.

School certainly does dominate in terms of time there is no denying that - but I think doesn't have to be the dominant force if you don't let it, and depending on the school and its philosophies lots of the PBH approaches can be used by an individual during school time, and I think approaches like that can certainly guide the way parents interact with school. I also think that many of the ways schools approach things are driven by parents/politics rather than the beliefs of educators so perhaps overtime schools will change from the path they are on.

One of the things I like most about PBH approach and lots of unschooling resources is the focus on building on your passions/interests and also there seems to be far more of a focus on jobs/careers later on - I found any sort of thinking about life post uni really quite lacking in my schooling and seeing the proportion of your life you spend working I think some sort of focus on that would be good.

I like the "I'm Unschooled. Yes, I Can Write." and the interviews with grown-up unschoolers are particularly interesting.

I think alot of the stuff about technology use (screen time) is also good - e.g. some of Lori's articles - because it isn't about either or, it is about what you are getting from it and some balance. From my perspective also seeing as I work with computers all day in some fashion or other then it seems particularly wrong to demonize them. Although if you work with computers and have always had a close link with technology (I started programming a Vic20 by typing in the code from magazines at age 7, and continued to use computers heavily throughout my childhood) it is probably easier to see the value/positives from them.

[Jellyfish]

Yeah, she has some great technology based posts and also the scarcity vs abundance one I think its called. My partner and I are both long time gamers, we actually met gaming so we are pretty comfortable about technology We don't limit technology and haven't found any problems in that approach. It's there when the kids want it but we make sure that plenty of other things are too basically. When DD1 discovered pokemon, she watched for almost a whole day non-stop and it made me a little uncomfortable but it would feel a little hypocritical to stop her considering when a new game is in beta or newly released, DP and I can find our free time suddenly consumed by it. And then it settles back to its usual rhythm and we can go days without playing a game at all, just like DD1s watching pokemon has balanced out and she rarely watches anymore. Sometimes it feels like society expects kids to be way more disciplined about how they spend their time than adults. Balance to us isn't a daily quota of x and y and z but something we keep an eye on over larger periods of time.

Instead of limiting we have taken steps to encourage our children to make mindful decisions about how they spend their time. We don't have free to air or paid TV, our TV runs off a hard drive so a person has to actively choose what they want to watch, it doesn't mindlessly stream. Our TV and computers (we have two powerfully beautiful computers, both with double screens) are located in a room away from the main areas of the house (where we naturally spend most of our time) so you have to actively seek it out. We have set up play spaces for our kids that are inviting and engaging, inside and outside, which are conducive to pursuing and demonstrating inquiry. And we spend our time engaged in various activities ourselves so we model that for our children.

It can seem like a lot more work than just demanding a child sticks to an hour a day or whatever but I actually think it is a lot easier in the end because we don't have to deal with any power struggles or whinging or any of that. And it is a long term investment, I don't want my child to learn how to follow others demands and commands, I want them to learn how to make active informed choices for themself and what better time to get all the practise they can while the stakes aren't high, while we're around to help them through any consequences. Children should be allowed to make wrong choices, to experience and feel them, to learn through that. Obviously serious safety concerns aside, of course we don't allow violence, we have car seats and belts and all that sort of thing which are not negotiable. And not that using technology would be a wrong choice but you know. Tangent.

And yep, technology has so many beneficial applications. My DD1s reading ability is owed a lot to wanting to navigate independently around bulbapedia and her maths has been hugely strengthened by playing hearthstone amongst other things