Why is it we blame the community and not the people or better yet ourselves?

PZ - you are very right.

I think it cuts both ways though.
I feel like I want to give specific examples, but I don't want anyone to think I am purposely targeting them. So I will try to give more general examples.

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When women here want to celebrate their gorgeous, natural births, or their breastfeeding experiences, or their 'attachment' parenting and are told they are 'making' other people feel guilty, then that makes me sad Because BB was the place you could once come to in order to do just that

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Celebrating something is great. If you are into gentle parenting or attachment parenting or homebirthing or whatever, that is fabulous. Share it with the community. However, don't expect everyone else to hold the same ideals or values. Don't make judgements against those who don't value or hold these things important. No-one is saying you cann't enjoy or believe these things, but you need to understand that as strongly as you feel for these, there are going to be others for feel just as strongly against. Likely if you are very passionate about your beliefs, then you are not going to understand why or how others could be well imformed and feel so strongly the oppersite - but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.

There was a thread floating around where someone asked for help in regards to them 'wanting' a c-section. This person was IMO attacked and interogated for their desire to have one. This wasn't what she had posted the thread for. She had posted to ask for help to get what she wanted, not to be told that she 'shouldn't' want it. Unless she chooses to share her reasonings, it was no-one elses business 'why', and no-one elses place to convince her otherwise. If you didn't have information for her, then like my mum always said "If you have nothing good to say, then better to say nothing".

I know how many members here feel about circumsicion. But when I had (in the past) posted asking if anyone knew of any practicing doctors in my area who would perform one, that was all I was asking. I did not require, ask for or appreciate the numerous posts for everyone else voicing their 'concern's.

If anyone went onto a thread about how fabulous co-sleeping is, and started pushing their own agenda about how they think it is horrible because x,y,z - it would be equally unappeciated.

FWIW - I don't subscribe to any particular 'theory' about parenting or childbirth. Since when did parenting or childbirth require a theory? I parent how I 'feel'. I do alot of it by instinct. I do alot of things my parents did. I make it up as I go along. I sometimes pick things up off friends, family or BB. I have found different things work with each different child. I DO NOT believe there is a right way to do something. I have co-slept, I have had them sleep alone, I have cuddled to sleep, I have used CC (and I would again if it made sense to), I have bf, I have ff, I have introduced solids both early and late, I have used midwives, I have used OB's, I have liked both and would recommend either, I have had three completely natural births ALL in hospitals, I would have choosen the epidural 2/3 times - if possible - and will be next time if able), I have used disposables, I have yelled at my kids, I have smacked them, I have used time out, I have circumsiced my boys. I am not a perfect mother. I am not the best mother. Sometimes I struggle just to make it though the day, others I cann't believe how joyous and easy having three kids is. I am (I believe) a good mother. I have done as best I have could by my children.

There is a story behind every decision. I could explain those stories if I choose and no matter how for or against a belief people are, most will see the 'exceptions' if shown in the right light. Me, I think everything is the exception, until proven otherwise.

I accept that BB will always have certain bias'. That is part of it's creation. It means that I will find more people on BB with certain leanings then I might IRL. This doesn't bother me. You get bias' everywhere. I know myself. And I know regardless of whether I agree with these bias' or not, I am confident enough in myself to exist and remain as a member.

No-one wants to make anyone feel guilty for having particular beleif, whether the norm or not. But acceptance is a two way street, it is hard to be accepting of anothers beliefs when they are busy riduculing your own. You may not be forcing another to feel guilty - guilt is a feeling they must take ownership of themselves: however you may ask yourself "what is your intention?" And "are you going the best way about doing that?"

If you want to inform, you first need to see if you have a receptive audience, sometimes people just don't want information. But you also need to make sure you are presenting information in a non-accusory format. If you aren't sure, read it back to yourself, only change the information in it to say the oppersite and see what your reaction to it is.

You may not be 'making' someone feel guilty, but if someone is feeling that way, I do think you have a resposibility to ask "what is my ownership in that exchange?" Did I come across as accusetory? Did I want them to feel like that? Was I harsher then nessecary? (I ask myself this last one ALL the time)

Honestly I think it is a good thing all these threads have been started recently, because they have felt like the elephant in the room; and finally people are talking about the things that are bothering them.

Oh dude. Awesome.

:clap:

ecspecially this bit

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You may not be 'making' someone feel guilty, but if someone is feeling that way, I do think you have a resposibility to ask "what is my ownership in that exchange?" Did I come across as accusetory? Did I want them to feel like that? Was I harsher then nessecary? (I ask myself this last one ALL the time)

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I do see alot of people questioning how you can have osmeone make you feel guilty. I think you have hit the nail on the head perfectly!! We are all sensitive and have dark moments when we are trying to reach out not to be nailed to a stake.

I remember the c/s thread you were talking about...my heart broke for the OP of it as the first 2 posts were straight to 'the throat'. Kind gloves are much nicer then rough hands at times.

Now to share the love

Misty, you are my new hero. :D
Awesome post. Exactly what I want to say.
You dont have to justify your decisions in order for them to be informed.
Thankyou.
Shell

Misty, that was a great post.

Trillian once said something in another thread about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar and I think this is a great motto to remember when posting too and kind of follows on a bit from what misty was saying :).

Great post Misty :)

FWIW I have been dabbling in another forum that makes BB look positively commercialised and oh-so-mainstream. It's a real eye opener for me! Just like there are forums around that make the BB community look like a pack of dirty hippies LOL! Reminded me that seeking out parenting advice really is like visiting a supermarket - heaps of options, lots of variations. But you don't stop shopping at Coles because it stocks Kelloggs when you only ever buy Uncle Toby's....

Misty have to spread the love but wow. Just wow. What an awesome post.

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Misty, that was a great post.

Trillian once said something in another thread about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar and I think this is a great motto to remember when posting too and kind of follows on a bit from what misty was saying :).

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You must have the memory of an elephant LOL

I too luuurved your post misty, but gee my brain is wizzing. I am just wondering whether it is always best practice to wait until people are literally asking what you think before offering your own experiences? I kind of think all interactions are about sharing (and with that goes your insights into being fair to each other, which some would call the PC-ness of posting).

When I was planning a homebirth, I was interrogated by EVERYONE about my reasoning, and the process of listening to their experiences made me feel stronger in my own conviction. I know for a fact my own experience then changed the minds of many around me, even when they weren't expecting it, or 'looking' for advice, but were just receptive to hearing what I experienced itms?

I know the example provided about the c-sec thread was different (and I have seen similar threads before), but I think often a hoo-har occurs because someone wasn't looking for advice or even a countering opinion, but received it anyway. And I truly wonder if that is a bad thing? I TOTALLY agree with rules of engagement being necessary and if you can't add value or say something constructive, then don't say anything, but I honestly think very hard before posting and feel I have a right to contribute to some discussions (obviously only the ones that I have any knowledge/experience in) and I don't always agree with the consensus of viewpoints.

I know, that sometimes we're not receptive to the voices of others, but I am wondering why that is. I think this goes back to the idea of a community also being a 'safe' haven for some, and I can see that asking people to shift their views can be scary.

This discussion reminds me of other social movements gone before us, such as feminists, where other women became some of the strongest opponents of female liberation from gendered roles. Their receptiveness to calls for change were not there and that intrigues me.

I hope that community can be BOTH supportive and a vehicle for change, but I think that requires receptiveness to the opinions of others. Perhaps not ALL the time (like when the thread is titled VENT or Support needed), but if it is a genuine discussion point, I feel the need to be excused from automatically joining in the consenus (if I have a valid point).

My head hurts and I think my logic is circular....ouch!

I haven't been able to gather my thoughts to some sort of coherent response lately but then I read THAT. Thanks for such a wicked post Misty - gotta spread the love but had to post and tell you how spot on I think you are.

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There was a thread floating around where someone asked for help in regards to them 'wanting' a c-section. This person was IMO attacked and interogated for their desire to have one. This wasn't what she had posted the thread for. She had posted to ask for help to get what she wanted, not to be told that she 'shouldn't' want it. Unless she chooses to share her reasonings, it was no-one elses business 'why', and no-one elses place to convince her otherwise. If you didn't have information for her, then like my mum always said "If you have nothing good to say, then better to say nothing".

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You're talking about me in regards to that thread. For the record, I did not try to convince her to do anything, I suggested how she might go about finding out that information and then posted a link to the birth articles on the main BB site that she may have been interested in because they could have offered her an additional perspective. I'm thinking she didn't even bother clicking the link (which appeared as saying Birth articles - give birth with confidence and knowledge) and assumed that I was posting links to info about vaginal births, when in fact it was just a link to ALL articles on birth, because then she attacked me for doing it. It only got worse from there and at no point did I deliberately attack her at all. Clearly I ****ed up and mistakenly thought she may have been interested in reading some non-clinical articles on c/s birth. But as the thread went on, I was also attacked by other members for doing it, when I said that a comment she made could potentially belittle the birth trauma that some of our members had unfortunately experienced, she had another go at me and I never said it in a nasty way at all, but again I was misunderstood and I was the one that came off looking like a *****, when I had done nothing to invite it. But in hindsight I wish that thread had of been different. However I can't take responsibility for how others react to me, I can only take responsibility for how I act in the first place. I can't take that thread back, but I made damn sure that I didn't make the same mistake twice.

In fact, I am nowhere near as vocal as I used to be about some topics. If I saw a thread about induction I would always post a careful and considered reply with the hope that they might think a little more about it, but now I just don't bother because much of the time, the posters just aren't interested in hearing something that may not be what they want to hear, so what is the point? It isn't worth the time I put into doing it if they aren't ready to hear it. I"m not going to risk putting myself on the line just because they have their own set of issues that prevents them from hearing a different viewpoint.

There are some of us who have stronger personalities than others, but does that make us bad people? I'm pretty confident that I would win no popularity contests and am probably perceived as being a cold hearted *****, but my only failing is that I have the strength of my convictions and I will voice them if I have to. And I'm not afraid to tell people to pull their head in if they need to be told and if that is what makes me a bad person, then so be it, burn me at the stake. It may not be the same opinion as other people but it's not supposed to be is it? I always try my best to speak in a way that is respectful to others, even when I don't agree with their view. But I think those qualities is what makes it possible for me to stick around and not take my bat and ball and go home when things get a bit tough. When I was a Mod I copped all sorts of flack and often for no reason other than doing the 'job' I was supposed to do and that's a tough gig to have, but it was OK, I have a thick skin and water rolls right off my back. I loved every minute of being a Mod, but since stepping down, I feel like the shackles have been taken off kwim? It's not like now I have absolute freedom to say what I want now, if anything I'm more cautious because I know that whenever something does get out of hand it causes all sorts of headaches for the Mod team and I respect what they do too much to deliberately be a part of any trouble.

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You must have the memory of an elephant LOL

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Ha ha :) Not really the memory of an elephant, but I do remember things that are meaningful to me and I suppose that sometimes things get posted that are just a simple remark or statement, but I guess you never know how what you post can affect another person (in a good way :)).

Trill, I had never heard this saying before you posted it, but I think it is a great one and one that I try to remember it whenever I share my own opinions or experiences.

Trillian - I don't want to target anyone in particular about anything. That wasn't my intention. But it is hard to be vague and still give examples.

I think it is fine to want to help someone, to offer knowledge or information. But when that person has made it clear that that information or knowledge is not what they are seeking or what they want (which in this case I thought was very clear from the original post) then I think perhaps that should be respected.

Having said that I do recall some of the responses to yourself and others and feel that they were equally unnessecary - two wrongs do not make a right.

That thread seemed pre-destined to be doomed from the get go - simply because of the subject matter and the request. And it is such a shame in my opinion that there do appear to be certain topics that are eternally "off-limits" because a thread cannot exist without it being at some point taken so far off course with no-one being safe from accusation and judgement.

It is not any ONE person or group of people who do this (hence I didn't want to target anyone). And I am certain that some of my posts have been equally unwelcome (I am a huge fan of those [vent] and [advice] heading now used in the punching bag and boo hoo room). I just think it is something we ALL need to be mindful of when responding to any thread.

Arcadia you'll begin to think I am stalking you! :hug:

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When I was planning a homebirth, I was interrogated by EVERYONE about my reasoning, and the process of listening to their experiences made me feel stronger in my own conviction. I know for a fact my own experience then changed the minds of many around me, even when they weren't expecting it, or 'looking' for advice, but were just receptive to hearing what I experienced itms?

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I get this very much. My SIL FF all her kids from about 6 weeks & introduced solids early etc etc. I was very convicted to my choice to long term bf etc etc. I chose a home birth & then a birth centre birth/waterbirths etc etc. I spoke openly about my choices and why. I refused to toe the line that it was not "normal" & I was a "hippy" etc etc. Gradually my SIL began to ask questions. With her last baby she bf for longer and finally one day admitted that she had "wished" she was strong enough to "fight" the tide and have a natural birth. I think we serve noone by not speaking about our experiences. Our views. I think we provide a dfisservice to other women. Many women believe that they have to do what the dr says. They don't understand there can be a choice. the same with vax. It goes on and on. If we all just nod and say ok without gently asking - nothing changes. I dont' want my daughters to have to fight to give birth instinctively. I will fight that fight for them!

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I know the example provided about the c-sec thread was different (and I have seen similar threads before), but I think often a hoo-har occurs because someone wasn't looking for advice or even a countering opinion, but received it anyway. And I truly wonder if that is a bad thing? I TOTALLY agree with rules of engagement being necessary and if you can't add value or say something constructive, then don't say anything, but I honestly think very hard before posting and feel I have a right to contribute to some discussions (obviously only the ones that I have any knowledge/experience in) and I don't always agree with the consensus of viewpoints.

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And I think you do Arcadia & I think I do. I think we all have that right. I think that that is what discussion is about. I also disagree with those that believe that debate shouldn't happen. Without debate we often don't toss around ideas. Debate is respectful - we might disagree heartily - but debate is about learning. I believe the fear of debate is a fear of conflict. Debate and conflict are very different things.

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I know, that sometimes we're not receptive to the voices of others, but I am wondering why that is. I think this goes back to the idea of a community also being a 'safe' haven for some, and I can see that asking people to shift their views can be scary.

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It is always scary to let go of a comfortable way of thinking. It IS scary. I think sometimes the reason we are not receptive is that we want to hold on to "right" or "our" view. It takes a lot of emotional intelligence to always be open to others way of seeing things. That is something I think we all need practise with...

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This discussion reminds me of other social movements gone before us, such as feminists, where other women became some of the strongest opponents of female liberation from gendered roles. Their receptiveness to calls for change were not there and that intrigues me.

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EXACTLY! I often think this. We human Beings have this ingrained fear that if we accept there is a different way we may be "wrong". I see that - but it intrigues me also that we will hold on like pit bulls rather than saying: Mmmm I can see it's working for her - maybe there is something in it. I've heard women say: "I can't give birth vaginally because my hips are too small"... But there is nothing to support that but an opinion. To investigate that opinion can be too scary to many many women. Because it opens up choice perhaps - then it's too hard? Or we're afraid of not being supported? Or there is too much else on our plate? Whatever it is we will keep telling ourself a story - whatever that story is that is comfortable. It['s projection. Humans are masters at projecting their ideas into belief.

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I hope that community can be BOTH supportive and a vehicle for change, but I think that requires receptiveness to the opinions of others. Perhaps not ALL the time (like when the thread is titled VENT or Support needed), but if it is a genuine discussion point, I feel the need to be excused from automatically joining in the consenus

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I agree. I think it is intriguing how we can't hear the opinions of others & decide if we are comfortable - accept it or reject it without anger.

Trillian - you are a strong woman with strong opinions. Never change that. I don't always agree with you but I have never not respected you. Because you have incredible emotional intelligence. I have rarely seen you over react. You are level & measured. I think you are an inspiration so just know that... :hug:

Ah, Trillian, you've hit one of the nails on the head, I think! In recent times it's been in here like people react badly when you say something they don't want to hear. Ticking timebomb!
Yeah, for me it's a combination of a change in the community as well as individual culpability for when things go a bit askew in BB. Individuals first started getting het up when they read something they weren't prepared for and then it seemed to become the way to treat all posts - with the assumption that someone is going to be triggered by SOMEthing in a post reply, so best to put in a disclaimer and still expect backlash. It's a bit tedious, so I just word things the best way I can if I'm feeling touchy feely enough to respond, or I just won't engage.
It takes far too much time and effort to respond to people genuinely only to have them get shirty with me, when I could have been playing a puzzle with my boy.

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Ah, Trillian, you've hit one of the nails on the head, I think! In recent times it's been in here like people react badly when you say something they don't want to hear. Ticking timebomb!
Yeah, for me it's a combination of a change in the community as well as individual culpability for when things go a bit askew in BB. Individuals first started getting het up when they read something they weren't prepared for and then it seemed to become the way to treat all posts - with the assumption that someone is going to be triggered by SOMEthing in a post reply, so best to put in a disclaimer and still expect backlash. It's a bit tedious, so I just word things the best way I can if I'm feeling touchy feely enough to respond, or I just won't engage.
It takes far too much time and effort to respond to people genuinely only to have them get shirty with me, when I could have been playing a puzzle with my boy.

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I think that is a reminder too BEFORE someone posts a thread that they should ask themselves what do they specifically want in the way of replies? Do they want to hear all sides/opinions or only those that agree with them? There have been some threads over the years where people have set themselves up to cop flack and then they wonder what they did to bring it on. I think the move to set up the boohoo forum so you can prefix with [ADVICE] or [VENT] is a great way to make people think carefully before they post in reply. But as great as that option is, at some point WE have to take full responsibility for the threads we choose to reply to and not have BB become our minder and have this type of system in place to prevent people from posting something that may not be welcome.

I think this is where PMing each other respectfully is an absolute must - rather than getting upset and flinging it out on the boards, just PM whoever's upset you and ask them for clarification. What we see as an attack on our choice, they may have intended as something completely different.

And following on from what I said before about it feeling like I'm drowning under the opposite opinions, instead of jumping on a post you don't agree with, it might be nice to continue to read ALL the posts - that way, if its already been sorted out, or others have already said something, it doesn't pour fuel on the fire ITMS. That's something I've found, is that one person can say something and then go offline for a few hours or a day, and when they come back there's 16 posts telling them how wrong and stupid they are. When I've encountered that, I don't PM anyone generally - who would you PM? No-one's given the impression they would listen!

Ah, I'm really tired and sore, this post sounds like I'm grumpy but I'm really not - at least, not at BB or anyone on it :) I'm basically just saying PM if someone's post has upset you, and take the time to read all the posts in a thread before responding. And by 'you' I mean collective. And by tired and sore I mean, goodnight everyone :)

In thread full of post number crunchers, I hope I can contribute.

I was ready to chuck it in today. I may still do as i evaluate where BB fits for me. I have been very introspective today and was pleased to see a thread like it. Not to use it as a vessel to whinge though (apparently I do).

To answer; Do I hate BB? No. Do some ideals rile me up. Yes. Do I hate some behaviours, beliefs even perceptions of others. You betcha. It’s a bit like football- play the ball not the man. In management its chastise the behaviour, not the person. It when though that things become personal though that we all appear to reserve the right to arc up. I’ve had some ripper assessments of me on here, publicly and privately- yet no one here knows me. How amazing that the internet affords such insight. Even I have had the same enlightenment with what I have dished out. It is unfortunately, very cathartic.

I found BB as part of the journey for my partner and me. I was on the information gathering spree as anyone health profession would do. I thought that BB had some sort of organisation to it, was holistic in it’s approach to parenting- from conception and everything around it because everything is so intertwined as a potential actual or soon to be parent. I didn’t perceive it be swaying to any particular ethos. My partner thinks it is a "Big ****" and that we all need to get a life. So she is my true barometer of reality and I love her for it.
I think that your perception of this place is based on what you want out of it. I want information and read far more than I post. I learn from my readings for both my role as Dad and as a Health Professional. I believe in the truth, so when I challenge or sound gnarly it’s in response to that on occasions (this isn’t a justify SB’s behaviour post either). I too dislike the beliefs of people who hide behind opportunity or position or belief that they are somehow granted a higher plane in life of where they sit in any given food chain.

As many loudspeakers here prove, I also believe in education, but I also believe in equity. As strongly as you believe in your own ideals and standards on life parenting family career and expertise for some of us I guess, someone else will have an equally strong belief. We parent how we want, we use responsive settling for example, but we really don’t care what anyone else thinks of it unless we ask. If I’m asked about, sure, I’ll give you some information for you to make your own choices.

The brilliance here though, you can be whoever you want to be, personality, background, history, whatever. No real obligation. That simple fact makes it so easy to spout whatever we want because, unless you have a Jerry Springer curse, you will just get an internet Burn Notice, never to be heard of again.
I don’t apologise for the fact that I don’t really have any feelings for this place or those in it. It’s more of a workplace like culture, like what I have found nursing and ambulance to have evolved into. Be nice to everyone, but really you wouldn’t invite many of them into your home. I used to say to new students, “If you saw these workmates of yours in their civilian clothes for starters, you might just change the way you perceive them!” All that I have seen in my careers me allowed me to distance myself from wearing the emotions of others. I come across; doesn’t mean I don’t care nor show it, just means I have my own toot to deal with, so why should I carry the weight of someone on the internet? The only emotion I have ever carried from the internet is now the mother of our 9 month old son!

Expecting that this place is representative of society is possibly as naïve as the inference that the place is full of flat soled earth mothers which it isn’t, clearly, well maybe a couple ;)

It may fit the definition of a community, but I think if we put our minds to it we could find may shortfalls and comparisons to prove otherwise.

As I said before it’s about what you want out of it. If this is your emotional crutch or you find solace in opening up behind a keyboard then your perception of the place is going to be different. If the only way that your grief or loss or emotional turmoil can be dealt with is by interacting with internet “counsel”, again your needs and perceptions will be different. If, as those mostly speaking about the “air” of this place at the moment are those contributing in large amounts regularly, you are going to perceive this place in a way that resembles the effort you have put in over time. If this place becomes an addiction and just like a Facebook junkie with a penchant for Farmville you can’t read a post without replying your perceptions and expectations will also be on another plane. Especially if the server is down!

So I suppose, I think that BB isn’t a community but rather a collection of expectations that dictate how we interact with it. Mindfulness that the next person isn’t necessarily here for the same reasons as you, and isn’t required to, might help with how you participate. Recognising what this place is and what it isn't might even help too for some.

So being mindful, I’m sure that some will see my post as irrelevant, or even a cheek but if I also like all the other posts again had you thinking, even if what implement to use on me then good.

[Apologies for the length]

TBH, I've basically quit contributing because most of what I say is ignored. But I've also quit contributing because I've found that I get upset if I don't like what someone has said in reply. But that's why I had a few weeks break, because I knew that things online were getting to me, I needed to step back and take time for myself, turn the computer off and enjoy my DS.

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And following on from what I said before about it feeling like I'm drowning under the opposite opinions, instead of jumping on a post you don't agree with, it might be nice to continue to read ALL the posts - that way, if its already been sorted out, or others have already said something, it doesn't pour fuel on the fire ITMS. That's something I've found, is that one person can say something and then go offline for a few hours or a day, and when they come back there's 16 posts telling them how wrong and stupid they are.

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Absolutely agree.

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TBH, I've basically quit contributing because most of what I say is ignored. But I've also quit contributing because I've found that I get upset if I don't like what someone has said in reply. But that's why I had a few weeks break, because I knew that things online were getting to me, I needed to step back and take time for myself, turn the computer off and enjoy my DS.

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I get what you say DD, it really feels like that sometimes. Like there's an agenda and people aren't interested if you're outside that. But then you sometimes get a suprising comment made elsewhere that references your thoughts, and that's a huge compliment.

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I get what you say DD, it really feels like that sometimes. Like there's an agenda and people aren't interested if you're outside that. But then you sometimes get a suprising comment made elsewhere that references your thoughts, and that's a huge compliment.

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EXACTLY!!
I feel it's all getting so clicky and that if you not in a 'group' or a 'clique' that your an outsider and that your opinion is overlooked and just tossed to the side.
Unfortunately, that's how I've felt for... oh, about 5 - 6 months now and I've just had enough, hence the reason for not contributing much anymore. I say my congrats to those who announce a pregnancy and a birth, and offer hugs to those going through tough times because I know they like to know that someone is thinking bout them (which I often do. I often wonder how specific ppl - like BG - is going lately with their dramas)
But, I've stopped making threads (except for the BA that I posted for cherished and the soon to be BA for Miss K) because I just don't wanna put my foot in it.

I guess I've never said anything good, because no-one has ever referenced me in anything (unless you mean quoting)

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I guess I've never said anything good, because no-one has ever referenced me in anything (unless you mean quoting)

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You must've said a fair amount of good stuff, given how many green squares you've got, LOL! :)

Oh boy Dark Dreamer, the cliquey stuff is a whole other thread I reckon LOL.

I unfortunately have now been left worried about posting for fear of having my motives questioned, so I shall keep this short and sweet.

When I speak in a community sense, it is because i have the opportunity to make comment without specifying anyone in particular. There may be a couple of people I could be specifically hoping get to read it, but I don't want them to feel targeted, so I speak in a much broader sense.

The other thing I want to say, is I read this Mans Handbook joke once, and there was this line in it that I think really represents most of the posters on this forum.
"If something I have said can be taken two ways, and one hurts you and makes you angry - I meant it the other way".

I do not think anyone here at all wants to make anyone feel judged. I think that you are all awesome people with the best of intentions trying to share compassion and support. I just feel that words on a screen do not convey that as well as they should. I always assume that you are speaking from the heart.

I sometimes seem harsh because I have been on the internet for a long time and have developed an extremely thick skin. It can make me look cold. Its not that at all. I will be honest with you.

Arcadia - Loved your post. I agree. In a general discussion topic in a general discussion forum, it is upsetting that I now feel like I need permission to post my feelings. I do have them too! They are just as important to me!

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Oh boy Dark Dreamer, the cliquey stuff is a whole other thread I reckon LOL.

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LOL! I think you've got that in one Trillian!

Keike - It's because I've been here for so damn long :p Took me a long time to go from one green square to two

:clap: Bending Reality

Stretcher Bearer - I used to feel like you. But then I started meeting other BB members. It then became a very real community to me. I have great friends IRL that I have met originally through BB - we meet up, we chat, we stay in touch through facebook, we get to know each others families. Some of those friends no longer visit BB, some are still very actively involved. Putting faces to people has certainly made it much more of a community for myself. I am getting glimpses into some of the people behind the usernames. It is a community, and just like any community, some members are more invested then others. It isn't a bad thing to be invested in (so long as you take everything with a grain of salt); just as if you choose not to be, then that isn't a bad thing either. For me, meeting people through BB is no different to meeting them through playgroup, or work or anywhere else. If you get along - you may just have made a great friend; if not - oh well try again.

I hear you on the cliquey cliques - what do you think we could do to, not necessarily break them, because it's only natural to form friendships, but to get 'into' them?

The problem with cliques is you cannot really do much about them. People naturally form preferences and leanings toward people that share similarities with themselves. Often in an internet community these ties are strengthened though real life meetings. I am not sure 'faceless' people can 'compete' with those who have formed friendships and relationships outside of the community.

Strangely, most of the people I have made friends with outside of BB, I rarely interact with whilst on here.... go figure...

LOL, I don't think it's strange Misty - I've met most of the WA girls, but I don't interact as much with them on here as I do some of the Melbourne girls :)

I don't really notice the 'cliques' until I see those threads about how a group has done something for one of the members - then I feel kinda left out, because it's generally someone I would've liked to have done something for as well, and so would have contributed if I'd known something was up. Having said that, there's no real way to contact every single member to ask them if they'd like to contribute, it's not like you can just start a thread about it because the 'victim' would likely see it! So that's the only time I really notice the cliques.

Are they cliques really, or just members who happen to be in closer contact with one another? Or is that the same thing?

Misty, I thinks thats great if yoube been able meet 'beyond the screen'. It allows you to see the real person I guess. It certainly a chance for a more wholesome experience.

Given the nature of many topic areas, I don't think every interaction or subject can betaken with a grain of salt, but I get your point.

Cliques are inevitable in places like this. Even with some of the closed groups and even with paid versus unpaid members there is the opportunity for them to form some probably unintentional.

I don't require validation for myself via meeting up even though I've been invited. It's just not my thing, and I don't see that it necessary for getting the most out of BB. It is great though that it has taken off though! I'm on a site paramedics from around the world, I have a great connection there and we do get stuck into each other well and truly. I think I would love to meet up with many of them across the waters!

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Are they cliques really, or just members who happen to be in closer contact with one another? Or is that the same thing?

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I think that there are cliques, and then there are cliques. One is the good kind where they are a tight knit group of friends and the other group is the 'mean girls' type that will gang up on someone. Like 'you mess with my friend, you mess with me' kwim?

Oh! I have another term I like to use for the italicised kind of clique.

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I think that there are cliques, and then there are cliques. One is the good kind where they are a tight knit group of friends and the other group is the 'mean girls' type that will gang up on someone. Like 'you mess with my friend, you mess with me' kwim?

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Now I'm confused... Isn't the "mess with my friend, mess with me" thing a standard part of any friendship? Or do I just believe that because I've unknowingly been a part of "one of those cliques" my whole life? I only started believing that because my friends and I were always bullied by what we saw as "those people" and I've always been a Mama Bear type and felt the need to protect them... *head explodes*

(this mostly tongue-in-cheek paragraph has been brought to you by the letter T and the number 10)

FWIW, when I see people feeling attacked on BB, I occasionally do "take sides" in a sense. Sometimes I'll blame (wrong word, but blah, I'm tired) the person posting because they're reading something no-one said to them. Sometimes I'll blame the person they're talking about, because "oh yeah, that was a pretty nasty thing to say." Hell, like I said on FB last night, sometimes I'll blame myself for not reporting a post I thought could spark confrontation!

I've never been actively involved in these argumentative threads/blow-ups (correct me if I'm wrong) because I don't like confrontation, but I have been guilty of not doing anything to stop them. Even watching them with glee to see someone I don't like get ripped to shreds :(

Just my thoughts on it all, I suppose.

I think there's a pretty fat line between standing up for your friends and ganging up on someone you don't like.

No no Teni, you're right, but I think Trillian's referring to a bunch of people who will gang up on someone else for a perceived slight, without giving the person a chance to explain. Of course, I could be wrong :P

I think the main difference between close friends and being a clique is the exclusiveness of the friendship. A group of friends provides no threat really to those around it because they happily accept other friends into their group. Cliques tend to exclude people and have a criteria for allowing people to join their group.

I have been involved in differnent groups and communities over the years and it is normal for people to become close to a couple of friends but I don't necessarily think that makes them a clique, it just makes them close friends. I can understand that some people feel left behind when others become close friends but I don't think there is really any ill intention there to leave others out.

On BB, I really don't see that there are groups that have any intention of being exclusive and intentionally leaving people out. I have found most people here to be quite accepting and open. I think in these kinds of situations if I feel left out, I try and let people know that I want to be involved and I can't recall a single bad experience with telling people that I would like to be a part of something. It usually leads to being included and it is a great feeling. I have encountered cliques that are exclusive groups in my life and honestly, I don't want to be a part of them. I have no desire to be that exclusive and shut myself off from the rest of the world. I find they are usually nasty too which is how they maintain their exclusiveness - which I suppose is the 'mean girls' mentality.

I don't think that cliques come into existence just to throw mud at someone else either. Usually if there are lots of people ganging up on someone else in a community such as this, I find it is because they all have a common dislike, not a mutual friendship (also because it is often a random collection of people). That kind of thing is also bullying and I think it is awful to watch no matter what I think of the person being bullied. Bullying is completely unacceptable but I think the mods do a great job staying on top of it here. If this was like a lot of other internet chat pages, where bullying was accepted or a blind eye was turned, I don't think I would bother coming back.

I find most disagreements - whether they are here, on FB or spoken words between people - follow a fairly similar sort of pattern. I love this link about a FB argument and as much as it is trying to be comical, I actually think it is pretty insightful - "An Honest Facebook Political Argument" by Chase Mitchell on CollegeHumor If you have a few mins, I reckon it is worth a read.

Oh, dear.
I've never been in a clique, though I'm sure people have other opinions on that. I'm happy to disagree with someone in one post who I was all over in another with empathy! It depends on the subject, for me, not who the person is.
I've also got a habit of seeing a dodgy post and going in to defuse, instead of reporting and it's only afterwards that I think I could have reported it...but then things settle down, so it's not so bad :) I'd rather see a situation resolved maturely in a thread than have things removed and deleted - it breaks the continuity and wrecks it for people reading the thread later who see that there was a spat (and curse that they've missed it) or who were reading with continuity until they get to a section that starts to look really tattered an uneven.
I love a group hug in a thread that has threatened to explode :)
I remember the days when 'cliques' left BB en masse and started up their own forums to stew in their negativity somewhere else. They were 'interesting'!
SB - men get to network quite a bit throughout their lives, mainly professionally, with peers. Women who don't return straight to work don't. You get women increasingly isolated at home when they're with their kids, even if they live in suburbs packed with people. One of the aims of BB has been to connect women not just online, but also in person if they're able, to break down that isolation. Not sure if you were a member or a lurker or what at the time, but it wasn't that long ago that a BB member went MIA from her normal BB activity after the birth of her twins. She'd been a member from previous children. Well, the twins died and were found quite some time after they had passed away. She had PND and it wasn't picked up by anyone in her real life - NO ONE. If people in her REAL LIFE couldn't pick up on something going seriously awry, how can people who rely on someone logging on really know what's going on? So, it was reiterated and encouraged at the time to meet with people in real life from BB. Since then I've noticed a significant increase in member meet ups - and not just big city ones, but now more localised groups, especially as the membership grows. It's really important for women to connect, because once they leave the workforce they run the real risk of becoming 'nobodies'. People may think it's 'pathetic' for someone to place so much emphasis and energy into an online forum, but I and many others see it as a contemporary way to reclaim some kind of village, where people don't fall through the cracks. It's just different for men - you guys become fathers and that's the change in your social status; you retain jobs, friends, wardrobe, social engagements. It's not a criticism, it's just the set up of ours and many other societies. I get that you don't hinge on being a member of BB and that's fine. We benefit here from the input of fellas. And we vary from high income professionals to young girls who start families without even having finished school.
As for cliques within categories - I'm friends with Platinum and non-Plat alike. For me it's about resonating with someone, not recognising that they have an avatar or not ;) I think it's like that for most members, paid or not.
I've been on the receiving end of a ganging up situation or three and come off pretty well. Most don't and they end up leaving. But I'm a bit Teflon-y :p

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I think there's a pretty fat line between standing up for your friends and ganging up on someone you don't like.
and

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No no Teni, you're right, but I think Trillian's referring to a bunch of people who will gang up on someone else for a perceived slight, without giving the person a chance to explain. Of course, I could be wrong :P

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sum it up pretty well.

And Maya, you are a worthy opponent :P