Your temple...when do we stop and draw the line?

[widdly]

I wholeheartedly agree with everything ALi has posted. Especially about children born into awful circumstances. Is it better to abort a pregnancy to spare a child a very sad life, or is it better to go through with that pregnancy, because abortion is so wrong, and bring a child into an abusive awful world? There is so much more in the decision to have an abortion than just whether or not a woman feels like becoming a mother or not.

In the case of the thread this came from, I felt shocked and sickened byt he thought of this girl aborting her 21 weekers, however I would feel equally shocked and sickened if this girl went through with the pregnancy, birthed these babies, then forever regretted them and blamed them for ruining her life, and possibly neglected them. Yes, in a perfect world this girl would have birthed the babies and adopted them out to a loving couple who would cherish the babies forever more, but this is not a perfect world, and chances are that this girl would have kept the babies and not given them the life they deserved.

I think each womans body is her own body to make her own choices about. Each woman has to live with the choices they make for their bodies, we do not.

I dont think I am getting my point across very well at all, so I will leave it at that.

[krisp]

I would simply like to offer:

I believe everyone has the absolute right to an opinion. The really difficult thing, and perhaps the hardest part to get right is knowing when to share it and when to keep it to yourself....

[Glamourcide]

Very well thought out points from everyone so far And Krisp - round of applause, hun. Perfectly said.

We all have a direction in which our personal moral compass points, and we all have different lines that we do not cross. Each person's line is in a different spot than the next person's, and while we may agree on some things, I certainly wouldn't expect us all to agree on everything, especially when topics such as this come up. Topics where this is no real 'right' or 'wrong' in a general sense, more just emotions and life experiences colouring our views and leading us to decide FOR OURSELVES where our compass points.

Speaking specifically about abortion, my stance is purely this: BOTTOM LINE, all said and done, I would rather a child never be born, than born into a life of misery and/or grave uncertainty. I know where my 'cut-off' point lies as far as a healthy, but unwanted, pregnancy goes, each of you probably have slightly or vastly different opinions on that. In a perfect world, there'd be no need for it - each conception would result in a healthy, happy child that would either be loved by its parent(s), or gladly given to another family who can provide. Sadly, this doesn't always happen, and really, I'd much rather see a child never know anything other than the warmth and safety of its mother's womb, than be made to suffer in this cruel world.

I can speak only for myself. I can only say what I think *I* would do in a given situation. I can respect the different choices and opinions of others, yet still not agree with those opinions or actions. That is my entitlement, as it is yours to disagree with me.
Abortion is, and always will be, such a hugely touchy subject, given that there are such strong emotions involved. As a woman, and as a mother, my own views are conflicted and I see some situations as 'wrong', but ultimately I stand absolutely by my previous statement. What is 'right' for me may not be 'right' for another and I would never begrudge them the ability to make a choice that is 'right' for them. What is 'right' for someone now may not be given a different set of circumstances, or time, but we can only do what is best for us in that blink of an eye, and then live with that.

I have so much more to say but in all honesty, these few threads have still got me emotionally exhausted Might come back later to talk more if anybody's interested.

[widdly]

Kris, you said it perfectly!

[Phteven]

I guess that for me it comes down to the fact that the rights of the woman trump those of the fetus. Not that a fetus shouldn't have rights but to me the mother's life is more important than the babies.
Why? Because a woman is a functioning member of her community. A fetus on the other hand is merely potential.

[Inanna]

Legally that's the way it's also seen Chloe I believe - at least medically. A mothers life is always supported before that of the fetus that she is gestating. (being factual and not implying any belief on my behalf)

[Glamourcide]

^ I agree with Onyx on that one, tbh.
That being said... if what you say is true about the mother being protected before the fetus (eg if the mother was injured in an accident or something), I wonder if a person could have it on record that they want the fetus saved first, kwim?? Like, if I was pg and near term and got badly hurt somehow, I'd want them to just cut the baby out immediately in order to save him/her and worry about me later, itms. I wonder if I could make a note of that somewhere so that in the event of it happening... I see stories in the news about expectant mothers falling ill or being hurt and their babies dying and I just think, why would you want to wake up from surgery/come out of your coma and find you've lost your precious child? I'd rather they let me die..
Lol sorry for the OT train of thought, I never knew that. And now I'm thinking about it lol :/

[Phteven]

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

[Arcadia]

I think womens rights are endangered by putting too much emphasis on the rights of the feotus. As Donna said, in a perfect world all babies would be born healthy and to a loving family...but the other circumstances are so fraught and tbh I think abortion is often more humane than adoption (my mum was adopted...)

I think life is sacred yes.. And I wish all people engaged in sex with this in mind...but sex, like so much of our society has become detatched from all meaning. Bodies are now fetishised objects, commodities to be tanned, plucked and analysed...their function seems to be lost to people. Which is also why birthing culture is so heavily medicalised, because people do not see their bodies as temples...as normal functioning beings, rather they see their bodies through another lense, in that case a medical lense.

Whoa...totally off topic at the end there... Basically what onyx said :P

[Liz]

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

That argument could have it's own 'where do you draw the line' question. What about our 'born' children? Is it fair to a 3yr old to sacrifice yourself so he/she could live? What's the difference between a motherless newborn and a motherless 3yr old? Is one situation fairer than the other? I'd take the bullet for my children any day. I think it's reasonable to have those same instincts/desires to protect the unborn too. I think Glamourcide has raised an interesting point... and I'd have to really think about it myself I think.

As for the OP. I draw my line at conception. A 1cm fetus is no different to a 25cm fetus in my books. I personally don't understand the argument that it's our bodies. The baby's body is not mine. Is the baby's body not also a temple? Just my opinion.. not said in judgement of those who think differently. Just simply don't agree.

[widdly]

Onyx, totally agree.

arcadia, goodness whole heartedly agree with you on the sex stuff. My rule for sex as a teenager was that I was not to have sex unless I felt quite sure that in the event of an unplanned pregnancy the father of baby would stand by me. I didnt have sex til I was 18 and with my DH. If only all people realised what sex is actually designed for, procreation, instead of thinking of it as just a bit of fun. And yeah, people really have forgotten about what our bodies are truly made for...

[Inanna]

Far out Arcadia you rock! I yelled YES!!!

It's a difficult one Donna but medically a mother would be saved first. I have been in this position unfortunately. You might remember Imogen's untimely birth... I was critically ill & deteriorating. The fetus was secondary as I was a live mother of 4 live children. That has to take precedence & (imo) should. However, I negotiated & literally gambled with my life to buy her an extra 24 hours inutero... I wasn't popular with some. It was a heavy time.

I have to say my decision was considered but I still gambled.

As a feminist I find myself advocating for a womans right to choose for her body/soul/spirit/emotions/lifestyle... As a mother I scream save the baby. As a friend I scream save them both. We wear many many hats. I do know though that pointing fingers, indignation, belittling, ridicule for anothers choices doesn't win anything - in fact we all lose.

As a Woman first and foremost before anything else I will advocate a womans right to choose her path. I advocate for considered and informed choices. I also know that what we would do at 16 or 18 is very different to what I would do at 43. Part of that is financial, part is wisdom of years, part is my life journey.

I believe the fetus does have rights but by design I believe the womans body is crucial & housed in that body for now are her thoughts, emotions, Essence/Soul whatever you term it... So therefore she has to make the decision... I support her right to make that decision.

[LimeSlice]

Whilst I understand the premise of the argument, I may just throw in here that sex is NOT only 'designed' for procreation. The human being is wired to use sex for pleasure, as well as procreation...
Just saying.

For me the issue is more the notion that the reverence of the pleasures of sex have been overlooked and defined as something cheap. Sex is one of the deepest forms of worship, respect and joy there is, and that aspect of things has nothing to do with procreation.

[RhiChiChi]

....I find myself advocating for a womans right to choose for her body/soul/spirit/emotions/lifestyle... As a mother I scream save the baby. As a friend I scream save them both. We wear many many hats. I do know though that pointing fingers, indignation, belittling, ridicule for anothers choices doesn't win anything - in fact we all lose.
I also know that what we would do at 16 or 18 is very different to what I would do at 43. Part of that is financial, part is wisdom of years, part is my life journey....

Well said

[Glamourcide]

WOW, Inanna. That post just completely BLEW my mind, I'm not even kidding. Everything I have swirling around in my head, written down so well by you. Thank you

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

Oh, I totally get what you mean. But truly, I have trouble functioning on even a basic level if the butcher runs out of a certain cut of meat I want or it's rained for three days straight and I can't do my laundry, so I really don't know that my daughters would be missing out if I sacrificed myself to save another child - I honestly doubt I'd be any bleeding good to them as a parent if it came down to that and I lost a child, kwim? In all honesty, I hear from BBers who have lost children, lost partners, lost loved ones, and think to myself, 'HOW are you even still breathing?! HOW do you get out of bed and put on that mummy hat and make your kids' lives okay when yours has just been thrown to the ground, stomped all over and shattered into millions of tiny slivers that cannot ever be put back together?' I really do. I am in absolute awe of them.

I think Inanna truly hit the nail on the head with her extremely well-worded post. I think I may have tried to say something similar in either this thread or another, but it came out all wrong, typical of me I agree - we wear so many hats, nothing in this world is black and white and there are different strings of our hearts, driven by different forces, pulling in opposite directions when subjects like this come up.
Of course ultimately I agree that the rights of a living, breathing, thinking, feeling and functioning woman should come before that of a life that is only at this stage a 'potential' life (even past the point of 'viability', tbh), but it's always going to be a very murky subject. I can only pray to whoever that I'm never put into those shoes and that my stance will be forever based on theoretical or second-hand experience

Lime, you also make a very valid point, which I will return to discuss later on... I've been craving McDonald's for two weeks now and I'm off to ask DH if I can hit the 24-drive thru seeing as I haven't had dinner yet

[widdly]

lime, yep, when I was typing i knew what i was saying wasnt what i was thinking, i am shocking at trying to get mysefl across on computer! I think what i meant was, people forget that EVERY time you engage in sex, you are risking pregnancy. Just because it is your first time, or you just had your period, or you are on the pill, or you pull out, or you use a condom, does not mean you wont get pregant. People seem not to realise that, my sisters included, they seemed to think that because they took the pill every day they were 100% protected from pregnancy. Well their DS' certainly taught them an important lesson LOL

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

I wonder how much our decision would change based on our personal beliefs on death and afterlife? Or even our beliefs on where this world is headed?

For me, I am 100% confident that I will be resurrected if I die, and its the same for any babies I have already lost, or may lose in the future. Because of that, the thought of endangering my own life to continue a pregnancy isn't an issue. If I die, I will be resurrected. I also believe 100% that in the future, the earth will be a paradise, and humankind will be perfect. So any abnormalities in this world are really a moot point, because they are only temporary. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it would be a HUGE test if I were actually facing the loss of my life or knowingly continuing an abnormal pregnancy - but that's where my brain stops, and my faith takes over. And even though my death may be the easy part - the hard part being played by my husband and possibly my child - I am confident that DH would not only respect, but agree with my decision. All very easy to type though, and I hope I never have to find out...

Just musing....I hafta say, considering how this thread COULD'VE gone, I think everyone has been very mature and academic in their discussions

[Epacris]

I struggle deeply with this. I wish I had a coherent position, but like others here, I too am all over the place.

I believe that a foetus has value and rights. I guess I also believe that the older it is, the more value it has, and so the greater the consideration that should be given to its rights. But I also feel that there are all sorts of life experiences where this balances out so differently, like if a woman has struggled to conceive and/or had lost multiple babies.

I believe that a father should have rights too. But then I contradict myself because I also believe that a woman should have absolute power in the decisions made about her body. So I guess if you are a man, and you have sex with a woman and a pregnancy results, that is the risk, as man, you take.

I believe that a woman’s life is more important than the life of the foetus. But in saying that of course I would die trying to protect or save my children, that is just instinct.

I believe that women shouldn’t be forced to be incubators for babies they do not want. Nor should they be sterilized by force. Although, I can see exceptions to this too, especially where parents and guardians make this heartbreaking decision for mentally incapacitated daughters (I won’t even try to define mental incapacity right now).

I guess above all I recognise that there is always a complex set of circumstances, nature and nurture, that brings about a situation. And that I can never experience for myself what the person in question knows and feels. So because of that I try so hard to always offer compassion and understanding rather then judgement and criticism. But then there does come a time, for me, when I do say, “Actually you’re just a selfish idiot and I don’t like your choices and I don’t like YOU as a person”. How sad! But then I say, well that’s just diversity isn’t it. I value diversity above everything else. The world is an amazing place because no one is just like me.