Please help me. DD's sleep.

[PumpkinZulu]

I need help. But firstly, please note, I have posted this in the gentle parenting section, I absolutely point-blank refuse to let DD cry it out, feel insecure, scared, or abandoned in any way. So please don't suggest CIO or variations of.

Basically, at night I want to take a running jump out my second floor window I need help but I'm not sure what to do. It's been three months of this, in the beginning I would try and settle her other ways, or DH would attempt to re-settle her, but now DH isn't currently living with us, I've resorted to BFing her every time she wakes up, because at least I know she'll eventually go back to sleep. Other ways of settling do not work anymore. Here is a breakdown of last night...which is a very average night for us:

L 7.37 - Bed

R 8.25

L 9.51 - Me bed

R 10.51

L 11.53

L 1.34

R 3.42

L 5.06

R 6.30

L 6.48 - Up

There are nights much worse than this, probably 2-3 times a week. Rarely are there nights much better than this.

I'm at the end of my tether. When I'm woken for the millionth time, the way I feel is frightening. I feel like yelling at DD and even shaking her. I haven't, but I have picked her up at little roughly a few times getting her to sleep during the day is difficult too, it's usually one or two naps during the day, an hour or less. Very rarely she'll sleep 1.5 - 2 hours for a nap.

We do BLS, but really she doesn't end up actually eating much at all. Sometimes she'll do decently but mainly it's just for the experience (as it should be at this stage). The thing is, she still wants to BF every 1-2 hours. When we're out she seems to manage longer, but at home it's almost impossible to stretch that out. So I'm feeling very touched out right now.

DD has just come out of her brace during the day, which is great. Hopefully she'll be off and crawling soon, and that will tire her out a bit.

I'm just at a loss about what to do. We cosleep, have since birth. Tried her in a cot either attached to the bed or on the other side of the room, no difference. I need help here. I'd consider a sleep school, but honestly, is there REALLY such thing as a gentle, a *genuinely* gentle sleep school?? I'm way too cynical about them in general, I'm not having some midwife tell me to walk out on my daughter for her own good. I've been dealing with this for 3 months now, I'm not going to do something that goes against my instincts. I just feel wry trapped in the situation. I will keep going as I am if I have to...I want to accommodate DD's needs first and foremost, I mean, from 6 weeks to 6 months she slept through the night. I knew that would end, I was prepared for that, and now it has and I really need some help, because 6+ night wakings are destroying me.

[Miss E]

hun, it's so hard when they're waking that frequently overnight and not napping much during the day. My only advice would be to read the 'No cry sleep solution'. It's a fantastic book that only puts forward ideas that conform with gentle parenting (you're probably familiar with it already). But she does spend a lot of time addressing issues that come from co-sleeping and breastfeeding to settle. It doesn't put forward any quick fixes, just a host of ideas that you can implement that from my own personal experience do lead to change HTH

[briggsy's girl]

Do you have any other comfort "tools" you use at all? We had a musical night light. Provided DD wasn't crying, we'd put that on for her. Was one of the ones that put a light show on the roof. If it had been less than a certain time since last feed (2hosrs I think) I'd keep my boobss covered, south her with cuddles and the night light. Boob would only come out if she got upset. And the light/music show went on as soon as she stirred.

Can you snuggle her so that she cant easily access the breast to see if it's just comfort feeding? Maybe try having her with her back to you? This one didn't work quite so often for dd but it did work sometimes. It honestly sounds like your dd us just comfort attaching (mine still does it sometimes so I get it!) - sounds like she needs to find something else as a comfort item to replace your boobs when it's just for comfort. Maybe a fave soft blanket or something. E takes comfort from skin to skin so I've had to cover my breasts to stop her attaching out of habit and let her stroke arms etc

One thought - given your dd's age - is it possible she is uncomfortable because of teeth? Can you try natural teething relief to see if her sleep periods stretch out? E slept through from five weeks to about six months then her sleep turned to crap the entire time she was teething. We got much better nights when she had some relief. Hylands teething tablets were good. There are a few other natural ones but can't think now. If she woke in the night more than once in two hours we'd numb her gums and get ages longer out of her. We coslept part time.

Good luck finding a solution that works for you

[briggsy's girl]

Excuse the terrible spelling. Typing on phone around a very wiggly toddler that wants to feed cos her tummy hurts and boob is better than pain killers!

ETA - had to find the laptop - couldn't leave the spelling that bad - it just didn't make sense lol

[Teeki]

I'm so sorry PZ. I know how wrecked you must feel

Unfortunately I can't offer advice, just support and more hugs. My DD slept through until 3 months, since then what you've described is a pretty standard night. Sometimes out of the blue she'd have a good night, and just recently she's gotten into a 3-hourly wake up thing. I have no idea how, or why, it's just randomly happened. I always feed her back to sleep unless it's obvious there's something else going on, as it's just not worth the hassle of trying to settle her any other way.

Her naps used to be shocking too, one good hour long sleep if I was lucky, or two short ones. That's only recently changed too. I don't know if she is getting more worn out now that she's very mobile and in daycare while I'm at work, or if she just grew out of it.

I can remember feeling the way you do quite a few times, and I think the only reason I don't anymore is because I somehow just accepted it. I'm used to very little sleep now. I also make sure DH helps on weekends and I nap for a couple of hours in the afternoon. I know your DH isn't living there, but could he come around and watch her while you rest and catch up?

Sorry I'm not much help, I hope someone has some good advice for you

[KitFaerie]

Oof, it's tough isn't it! You've done brilliantly to get to this stage, and I know you wouldn't back down on any of your principles. Honestly if anyone thought waking up 6-10 times a night was unicorns and sparkles there would be something seriously wrong with them (or they'd be 6 months old).

So advice, my DS was sleeping through from 14-24 weeks and then it all went KA-BOOM! He relaxed when we went back to a really predictable routine, the times differed depending on when he woke up/what we were doing but the sleep cues didn't, this was for his day sleeps and his night sleep. We'd go for a walk around the garden and I'd sing to him, then we'd read a few books, then I'd put him in a boosted nappy and his sleeping bag and he'd be fed to sleep. For his night sleep he'd have a bath and massage before his garden walk. When he woke up, I went straight for feeding to sleep because it took the shortest amount of time and it was the easiest for me.

Oh! And in the really bad times when it took hours to settle him I found if I had a plan of what I would do next then I coped better, like ''I'll feed him for 20 minutes, then rock him for 20, then walk around humming for 20 etc etc...'' I also gave myself a time limit of when I'd give up, so if he hadn't settled after an hour for a day sleep, I just got him up and we played quiet games. We were both much happier without that pressure.

Good luck

[YoYo]

I can feel your pain, DD is the same, worse when teeth are on their way.

When you co-sleep and feed do you actually move her, sit up, feed and then back to sleep? With DD she will ask for boob, I'll roll, top goes up, she attaches then I fallback to sleep, she doesn't feed for long, it's all about comfort. Are you not able to carry on sleeping (I know, it's rubbish sleep) and feed at the same time? Does her brace stop that maybe?

Really I think it's a matter of finding another thing for comfort. My DD has boob or my elbow.... Yes weird... Puts her hand up my sleeve and plays with my elbow! I can usually get her to use my elbow as a comfort instead of boob (after she protests) which enables me to sleep better and feel less drained.

When you're so tired it's really hard not to get cranky at them. For me, I also find I really need to get some true alone time during the day because I've been invaded all night! As I type this I have DD with her hand up my sleeve and lying on my arm.

I really wish I could say more to help, but I guess you just have to keep trying things till you find something that works for you.

X

[xXHopeXx]

Oh Hun I have had some bad experience with DD sleep, not quite as bad, but I was still feeling exhausted, stressed, frustrated, and like jumping out a window, so I can relate
Could you possibly try to break the association between feeding and sleeping? That was the only way I could help DDs sleep, she now only wakes between 2-3 times a night (unless she's sick) when a normal night was similar to yours.
I started by feeding her not lying down, not where she goes to sleep (in our case her cot next to our bed), in our case, the loungeroom, it's light, bright, etc, then (because my DD is older) I held her hand and walked her to the bedroom and said to her "it's sleepy time" and lied her down and tried to put her to sleep. Eventually as time went on I increased the time between feed and sleep, so feed 10 mins before sleep, 15, 20, 30 etc. now she doesn't need a feed to go to sleep, I've found she's sleeping better, starting to put herself to sleep (while I'm with her) and is able to (somewhat) self settle because she knows she doesn't NEED a feed to go to sleep.
If you know roughly when she'll need sleep, perhaps you could feed her before you know she'll be wanting sleep, like 5 mins before, then slowly increase the time of feeds before sleep?
It was somewhat easier for me because she didn't feed TO sleep, because she has a dummy, but she just needed a feed to get to sleep. ITMS? I don't know if your DD is like that.


If she is fed to sleep, I've heard of the Pantley pull off method, I don't really know anything about it, but perhaps it's worth looking into?


Sent from the land of "iSomethings" so forgive me for any spelking misstaks

[meow]

I second (or whatever we're up to now) The No-Cry Sleep Solution. It helped me come up with some ideas (for my older son, I'm just muddling along with another non-sleeper now). She's a bit too hard core about the way they go to sleep first time at night setting the tone for the rest of the night- it's rubbish because my fed-to-sleep baby started sleeping through the night while still being fed-to-sleep.

But I used her methods to help me teach my son to self-settle during the day (at about 9-10 months old). I was feeling over touched and ready to throw him across the room with all the work I was going through getting him to sleep. I modified the pull off method to a put down-pick down method of rocking him to sleep then putting him down almost asleep, picking him up when he cried and then doing it again. It took about 2 hours to get him down the first week and it was killing me but eventually he got it and he started self settling for his day sleeps and I was a new happy mum again. I tried a bunch of comfort toys too and he attached to a muslin blankie and a musical pull-toy on his cot.

Then at about 14-16 months old I started night weaning. My aim was to feed only twice a night but he caught on quickly and went to one feed a night then a couple of months later started sleeping through.

You will get there but if you're struggling this much I would start doing something as a protective mechanism.

[MrsFabuloso]

Hugs hun. I know how you feel. My DS2 is still sleeping terribly at 15mths, and I'm alot like you with the CIO, I just couldn't do it.
I have no advice as I am pretty much where you're at too. Just hugs and some sympathy I will be reading the advice with great interest!

[Arcadia]

Oh PZ, I'm sorry you're in this situation. My dd was like that too and I know those feelings. I used to imagine throwing her out the window sometimes. It's just severe sleep deprivation, and you can get through this.

Basically you have two options. Try and change the baby, or try and change what you do to cope with her waking. Where are you living? Are you on your own?

If you need to change the baby, I would also recommend the no cry sleep solution (I can send you my copy if you need). It's good advice, centered on baby's needs.

If you can change your own sleep, I would recommend someone take dd for a few hours each afternoon so you can sleep. Is that possible? You need to catch up big time. At around your dd's age I was loosing the plot (except she did that from birth) and I was weeping all the time. Only sleep helps. I went to visit my family in the country and slept and slept and slept.

This too shall pass. I am currently up for hours on end with a party animal one year old! They each cope with developmental changes differently.

Thinking of you!

[HotI]

My DD's nights were like that, and it really sucks. I got some help from the no cry sleep solution - not a quick fix but it is good for gentle ideas that are worth trying, and secondly just from time. Over time, DD slowly began to sleep longer periods. Not sure how old your LO is now (and whether this is a comfort or not), but we had major advancements in her sleep abilities at 12 months, 15 months (she first slept through the night ) and again at 18 months.

Moving to a sidecar cot (from bedsharing) took awhile to achieve, but it really helped with the feeling touched out thing. even if it is only for part of the night - dd started in the cot and then joined me later - gave me better headspace.

i tried to introduce a comfort toy for a long time before it happened (prob 9 - 12 months) but now DD has 2. they go to bed with her and she brings them out with her in the morning. worth persisting with, but don't stress if it doesn't seem to be happening.

also fak, so apologies for disjointedness.

[ellasmummy]

Hugs PZ, I have no advice, just wanted to say I know how you're feeling, my dd just turned 1 and has slept how you've described your night for probably about 7 months of that year. I don't know why/how as nothing changed, but she just one night got herself together and started sleeping through! (Usually) I know you probably know this, but I really find sleep promotes sleep. DD as a newborn and small baby could go all day with a couple of cat naps, then be up every couple of hours a night. She sleeps more now as a 1 year old than she has her whole life!! Hope your dd follows this path too!!

Eta: my hubby works nights so I know what its like to do alllll night by yourself, and when ur bfing you're really the only one who can help anyways!! On weekends my DH would get up with her in the mornings sometimes so I could have a nap....could DH come over in the morning after breaky or something and play with dd or take her for s walk or something so you could nap? I know its not solving any long term sleep issues, but I always found it a bit easier to cope with some sleep under my belt. Just don't let him give her a nap lol so she might sleep when she's back with you.

[PumpkinZulu]

Okay, time to reply!

MissE, thankyou. I couldn't remember the name of the book. I'll definitely have a read of that...although I don't think I could give up cosleeping or anything like that. I'll definitely grab a copy.

Kaytee, thanks so much for your support. DH can't come around if my mother is home, she hates him and treats him like crap, so on weekdays when he's not at Uni or working he comes around, but it's really not often. Whole other thread, but I'm seriously considering moving from my mothers, it's just not working out.

Yules, yeah, she still sleeps in the brace, so I do have to move her. I pick her up and put her on my tummy while I'm on my back, so we both get disturbed as little as possible. She'll go back to sleep like that. Sometimes, when she's asleep and I move her off me, she wakes up instantly. I do think it's comfort as well, her feeding, I've tried introducing a comfort toy or blanket but she doesn't seem to care about them.

Hope, I have heard of the Pantley pull off method, I'll have to read about it. DD definitely has a feed to sleep association, it started because it was all that would help her to sleep I guess.

BG. Could very well be teeth. She's 9.5 months and only has 3. Who knows. I do sometimes try to just snuggle her on my chest and this will occasionally work instead of a feed. The closest thing to comfort ATM is her dummy, and when she wakes in the night (always crying, she doesn't wake up crying during the day) often the dummy won't work.

Kit, that's a great idea about the 20 minute blocks. Would make things much more attainable. I'll give that a go.

Meow, yeah, I'm not too worried yet about feeding to sleep...DD slept overnight for 6ish months fine being fed to sleep. That method you described spuds good, I'll keep it in mind and try it for her next day sleep, thank you.

M3LM, thankyou for the sympathy and understanding. It's weirdly comforting to know others have been there too.

Arcadia...the way you worded that made me think. I don't want to change DD. I want to accommodate her as much as possible, I don't like the idea of forcing her to fit my wishes. But on the other hand, she is very tired most of the time from her sleep. Hmm, something to ponder more. Thanks.

Thanks HotI, I think I'll definitely keep trying with the comfort toy. I have no idea why she's waking so much but I do know it's for comfort, it'd be nice if she could get that from something other than me too.

Ella, thanks for your support. DH is coming around as much as possible ATM unfortunately.

TripleJ, thanks babe.

Trav, I wondered about the water. I do try to get dd to feed from both sides, but aside from the first few months of her life she never has.

Tinks, I wondered about hunger too. I do BLS but lately DD has really gone off food a lot, only plays and hardly eats at all. Maybe I need to try offering it at differen times?

Cassius, I've booked a Pinky class thingo next month

[Miss E]

MissE, thankyou. I couldn't remember the name of the book. I'll definitely have a read of that...although I don't think I could give up cosleeping or anything like that. I'll definitely grab a copy.

That's the great thing about this book, the author herself coslept so she doesn't tell you that you shouldn't be, more suggests ways that you can help your LO to stop needing the boob to resettle. It's well worth reading.

[onthefly]

PZ, you're having a rough time. I do empathise
I apologise for my brief response - In a hurry, but this is based on my personal experience (yep, done it, doing it)

First, stop watching the time. Knowing how often adn when they wake makes things worse.
Second, do whatever is easiest. If feeding is quickest, then do that. Seriously. Yes, she likes feeding to sleep. It's ok, though. She'll grow out of it in time. If it works now, and nothing else works better, then don't make life harder for yourself.
Third, feed her as often as you can during the day. If you feel maybe she needs more milk, then offer less food.
Fourth, at this age, separation anxiety often kicks in. It's important for her to know you're close. The upheaval at home may also have some affect on her. She may also be due for teeth. They can be nasty buggers and wake kids constantly for months

Hang in there. I promise it will get better. Do you have help during the day or weekends at least? Any time to get a bit of rest or time out will really help you.

[PumpkinZulu]

That sounds good

I just had a look in her mouth, and she's cut 3 teeth...she had two before that. But surely teething doesn't take 3 months? Or does it?

[meow]

I was going to ask if she's in pain... but the three month thing put me off too. Feeding THAT often is usually (for us) a sign that something is wrong such as teething or upset tummy from a food reaction or hunger due to increased needs. Over the past few months when it's not been teething then feeding the little squish more food during the day or cutting out dairy (for example for us) has helped him have better sleeps.