Homebirth general discussion #8

I talked to my midwife about when was 'too early' for a homebirth. She said that she had supported one woman with a 35 weeker who was able to stay home, but it was pretty intensive for both mum and midwife. these bubs often feed ok for their first feed, but get really tired after. the mum basically stayed in bed full time giving bub skin to skin and feeding. someone else did kangaroo cuddles when mum went to toilet and the midwife visited twice daily.

i watched an awesome 'family' waterbirth where Mum breathed her bub out just before DS was born, and that is how he came out too!

Lots of love coming your way as you prepare for your births, *Ash* and Loulabelle.

:baby: Babies Arrived :homebirth:

HotI - Baby BOY born at home in January



:pregnant: Babies On Their Way :bellyrubs:

*Ash*- February

loulabelle - February

...Em - May

Cricket - May

ladybirdflies - July

BellyBelly - August

Oh meow, i KWIM! now that i have cable here in LA i am gobsmacked at the birth shows! they are all super super medical and c-section central! and the way that they are done! i am horrified and had a little cry when i saw one baby being left stark naked, with his arms out above him searching for a grasp of his mummy, only to find those horrid bright lights of theatre and a plastic covered hand man-handling him to put INK prints of his feet on some paper!! and the rough as suctioning...with no bodily support or cocooning. my gosh.

*Ash* and loulabelle - thinking of you both every day as you prepare to welcome your bubs to the world :)

Ash - it was so wonderful having DH home for so long...I can see how bonded he is to C which is really special...he was such a great support to me while he was at home - we're very lucky to both be in the public service which has great leave provisions - 14wks paid mat leave for me (I'm taking it at half pay), plus 6wks I had saved up in annual leave (also taking at half pay) and DH had 4wks paternity leave plus 7wks annual leave. Truthfully, it's been a tough adjustment with him back at work - yesterday C was so unsettled all day and I ended up sending DH a text saying 'I can't do this'...as soon as DH got home, C cracked a massive grin and was laughing and playing with DH for hours. It broke my heart - wish he could just stay home with us forever in the love cocoon we made for ourselves :)

Jen - I haven't had a chance to get on my computer to look at your photo but can't wait to see it!!

Eutra: :hug: i did the call DH thing soooo many times with DD1. it is ok, and should be done more often! i am all for reaching out when it is needed xx

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Eutra: :hug: i did the call DH thing soooo many times with DD1. it is ok, and should be done more often! i am all for reaching out when it is needed xx

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thanks Cass :)

Oh gosh- me too! My H's first day back at work after we had our first and I called him to come home again at 11am!

i was looking at some of the comments on a US site after an article on the Vic woman who died after having her baby at home (i know, i know- i don't know why i did it either :wall:), and it got my thinking about what makes someone an advocate.

Some of the articles have described the woman as a homebirth advocate and said that she wrote a submission in support of midwife funding and legal protection. Ok, so i also wrote a submission last year- does this mean i would be described as an advocate. Is writing a letter in support of something enough to call someone an advocate? What about if you never spoke out publicly but had a homebirth, supported friends to homebirth ... would the media describe you as an advocate then?

i think what annoys me most is that some of the reports have used 'homebirth advocate' in a way that infers that due to the advocacy, the person was unable to think rationally or make appropriate decisions. Getting annoyed is stupid cos i know that these people would never understand or support homebirth anyway, but i dislike the attitude and that it has seemingly become ok to publicly comment and criticise when there is a family who have just lost their mother, wife, daughter.

Well, I got to spend the morning with a whole bunch of HBing advocates at our monthly get together! ;) it was fantastic to see the m/ws again and for the first time be able to share my birth experience with them instead of just ask questions. Talking about it all, I wanted to cry with the joyous memories.

I've had plenty of opportunities to talk about HB with school going back this week too. I'm just busting to be asked where H was born! Anyone else still so proud of themselves and their experience that they can't be shut up? Lol

I got a call from my health fund m/w (they follow you up during pg and after birth to see how you're doing) and she was so excited that I'd had such a positive HB. She said I made her day, she wishes she heard more stories like it.

Ash and Loulabelle - sending beautiful thoughts your way for a joyful birth for you both.

Jen I think I drive the daycare ladies at dd1's dc mad today cos I was tellin them all about it, and probably horrified them when I said that mima had gone back to asking for breast feeds on a regular basis(although I am restricting her to before bedtimes).

Hot1 I am also sad to hear the debate be only about safety of life and forgetting about safety in the holistic sense, with the hb debate. It is like they ignore that the highest cause of maternal death in the 12 months after a baby is born is actually suicide..... Very sad for this family being dragged thru the mud.... I feel so sad for her husband. Her daughters will miss her in the future, but her hubby and brothers and sisters and so on must just be devastated. There is no privacy given to grieving hb families, as we have seen with Sarah's experience late last year :(

I get the sense that everyone likes referring to her as a "home birth advocate" as it gives the feeling of "you told us to have home births and look what happened to you!". It's sort of a way of silencing home birth advocacy. I guess this helps hospital birthers justify their decision... but I think you only latch onto this if you felt some insecurity about your decision in the first place. If you're truly comfortable with a decision you don't need to bring others down to make your decision seem better.

My HBed son is 14 months old now so generally no-one asks about his birth anymore :( I remember getting to tell people and it is such a lovely experience to share Jennifer! I went to a LC at the RWH when he was a few weeks old... the appointment had been made 2 weeks in advance and we were mostly over the BFing troubles then so we ended up just talking about his birth. She loved hearing about a HB and wished there were more of them. It was so nice. I love times like when we moved and I took him to a new doctor and I got to state he was born at home. I also love that he was big so everyone thinks I'm amazing for HBing him too. Big ego boost :lol: Enjoy it Jen!

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It is like they ignore that the highest cause of maternal death in the 12 months after a baby is born is actually suicide.....

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I think that'll get swept under the carpet a lot. People don't have much respect for suicide. If it was because of birth trauma then the woman should learn to change her expectations. And besides, mothers who suicide are callous, heartless souls. I went through learning about that stigma when my mum suicided.

I don't have any access to that news story over here - what happened? What did the mother die from?

I find it interesting how the same thing can be handled so differently in different parts of the world. In Holland, home birth is viewed as normal, safe, and pretty common. In Canada, it's somewhat uncommon, but becoming more popular, and our health care covers it. In the US, in some areas, it's fine; in others, it's illegal. Funny how it can take so long for information to be shared and policies to change.

I guess at least it's not illegal here.

TBH we're in a period where HBs are increasing, quite substantially actually. So there's going to be a need for a lot more education until it becomes accepted. At the moment it's moving from something that was rare and on the fringes, with a more radical component. Now there's a mix of moderate and pioneering mums who HB. My HB group looks mostly like any other mothers' group (and exactly like my ABA group), with mums who were VBACs, VBA2Cs, first timers, those who suffered birth trauma previously and those into natural parenting.

I see this as an opportunity to get our positive, amazing stories out there while everyone learns to accept HB. In my case, I have friends who are drs and nurses who were watching with interest, a DP who tells his work colleagues, my own colleagues, my mum (who now thinks HB is wonderful), my sisters (who would have bought into the fear possibly otherwise), my GP... The list goes on and on. So I like to think that sharing our personal experiences has a deeper and more meaningful effect on those we touch, compared to media hype. A headline cannot compete with a new mother who's just bursting with joy and excitement as she tells her story, or the healthy contented baby she holds.

See, in my case ppl were only interested in knowing details before the birth. And all that they wanted to know were worst case scenario plans. Annoyingly, once I had M, no one was interested :(. I found that very few wanted to hear how perfect it was. At MG, 2 of us had babies a week apart...they only wanted the other girls details.I think in their minds asuccessful HB just cannot be real ITMS. I was devastated as our group is so close but on this one, they couldn't comprehend just how amazing and life changing it was for me.

I think ironically the most difficult audience is going to be other mums who've just given birth, Cassius. There would be those who didn't have the experience they expected or wanted or who would need to justify their own choices. I guess some are probably still trying to process everything. It probably is a bit confronting to habe another mum sitting there beaming about it all if you're in any way disappointed or traumatised. But they would have noticed the difference in you, even if they didn't acknowledge it.

I don't have a MG as such, so I'm only speculating, but I do see the odd person launch into all the reasons they couldn't have had a HB, or aren't going to have one, to which I just nod and smile.

you're right Jen. although I haven't had a hb yet so can only go by the reactions of people when they find out my plans. but, mothers are the hardest critics. I've got my close friends who are thrilled for me, even if they don't understand and wouldn't do it themselves, they are happy for me and have full support for what I'm doing. on the other hand I have DH friends partners who look at me like I'm awful and somehow endangering my baby.I don't know if its because they were raised differently, high income, private school, I don't know! but, they all seem to think anything other than private model care is not good. it would be so nice if I could relate to them on this whole birth and parenting front, especially being as a few of them are due around the same time as me. maybe I should send them all a birth video when bump arrives.

37 weeks on Sunday. I'm goibg through government funded homebirth here in wa so is a little stricter in what they can do, not lots, but they can't do homebirth before 37 weeks. ill be happy when Sunday comes. I still have so much to plan, pretty much everything bar the pool! am going to try and get through it all this weekend.

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Meow.... I am so sorry to hear about your mum. U r right about people assuming those things about suicide, but I don't believe them. I don't think that anyone who has been touched by it personally can think that I they have had time to process the grief. But I guess it isn't a topic most people are comfortable discussing. I on the other hand find the hard topics compelling, if very sad.

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I was devastated as our group is so close but on this one, they couldn't comprehend just how amazing and life changing it was for me.

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Oh, that is such a shame. :(

My two homebirthed bubs are now 3 and 5, so I don't get asked about their births much anymore. However, since being pregnant, I have been getting the inevitable questions about where I am having the bub. So when I say 'at home', I can also add 'My boys were born at home". I have had times where I have told people that i have birthed at home and they have said, 'Was it an accident?' Also, when DS2 was only a few weeks old I had to have some (non-pregnancy/birth) related day surgery on the Gold Coast. Because my little guy was so young, I was asked about his birth. When I told them he was born at home, the surgeon said 'Oh, I didn't think people did that anymore' :rolleyes: And the nurse said 'Oh I couldn't handle all the mess and the big clean-up afterwards'. So I set her staright, and told her that the MW's had cleaned up everything and put on loads of washing, and that during the labour of my first child, one of my HB MW's had vacuumed and mopped the floors in our living space because I was annoyed that I hadn't had a chance to do it!

Also, I find that people are quite vague in their reasons for opposing HB. I have had people say that they would rather be in hospital 'just in case' or that HB is 'too risky'. And when you try to clarify by asking 'Just in case of what?' or 'What risks?', they can't really name any. I get vague replies like ' Something might be wrong with the baby' or 'what if the baby isn't breathing' or blah blah. And this is when I love to tell them about the expertise of MW's and the fact that they carry some emergency equipment. Not to mention the fact the the MW is there with you - she is not dashing off to other rooms to check on other labouring women. She is fully attentive and in a position to recognise if 'something' is not as it should be.

Meow - I am sorry to hear you lost your Mum like that. It must be a difficult thing to bear. :(

Loulabelle - wow, you're nearly there! Looking forward to getting past Sunday for you!

Ash - ppl ask me all the time if DD1 was born at home too, when I say DD2 was. The c/s is a shock!

meow: i kinda understand the stigma of suicide too...it hits close to home with immediate family members and to have callous comments thrown around just hurts and isnt justified.

and i think it comes down to fear. that is why people react so full on towards topics that freak them out...topics that they havent had a chance to process...including HB.

Just a quick one, had my first midwife appointment today, was really nice and put me in better spirits. Had a good laugh with her, my partner and my partner's mother.

Jen - I tried checking your FB for the photos but couldn't see them! I would very much love to :) xxx

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Jen - I tried checking your FB for the photos but couldn't see them! I would very much love to :) xxx

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I put the photo in my BB album, hun. I'm going to put more on as soon as I can figure out how to reduce the file size! And add everyone else in here.

Glad your.m/w appt went well! I have my last one next week (6 wk appt a bit early as she's going away). :( Thank goodness for our group get togethers. I don't think I could say goodbye for good!

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Just a quick one, had my first midwife appointment today, was really nice and put me in better spirits. Had a good laugh with her, my partner and my partner's mother.

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Great! I'm glad you had such a positive experience.

Jen- really?! 6 weeks!! that's flown. glad you still have an outlet of those groups. I'm going to join a weekly one here after bubs comes. hopefully it will be a good way to meet like minded people as I haven't yet really met anyone here in wa.

Kelly- glad your appointment went well.sounds like you've got great support (apart from the hospital)

meow- I'm so sorry about your mum. I also know the stigma that comes with suicide. I found that after I lost my best friend 4 years ago that no body wanted to talk about it. I understand its a hard topic but I found people wanted to just act like it never happened.

thankyou to all of you for the birth blessings xx

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Came across this article (via homebirth Australia FB status) and it mirrored some recent ponderings of mine.
Elsevier

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Birthing outside the system: Perceptions of risk amongst Australian women who have freebirths and high risk homebirths

Melanie Jackson, Hannah Dahlen, Virginia Schmied,

Midwifery (Article In Press)

Abstract

Background

homebirth for low risk women attended by competent midwives who are networked within a responsive maternity care service is supported by research as safe. Concerns exist over the safety of homebirths which are unattended by trained health professionals, or for women with medically defined risk factors. Both these birth choices are unsupported by mainstream maternity care options in Australia and therefore represent birth choices considered to be 'outside the system'.

Aim

to explore the perceptions of risk held by women who choose to have a freebirth (birth at home intentionally unattended by a trained birth attendant) or a 'high-risk' homebirth (professionally attended home birth where a mother or baby has medically defined risk factors). Both of these choices are considered to be 'outside the system'.

Methods

twenty women were interviewed about their choice to 'birth outside the system', nine choosing freebirth and 11 choosing to have an attended homebirth despite the presence of medically defined risk factors; three were primiparous and seventeen were multiparous. Women intending to have, or having had a freebirth or high risk homebirth, were interviewed using semi-structured interviews. Interviews were transcribed and analysed using thematic analysis.

Findings

the three main themes about perceptions of risk that were evident in this study were: 'Birth always has an element of risk', 'The hospital is not the safest place to have a baby'; and 'interference is a risk'.

Discussion

the participants acknowledge that birth is a time in life that carries an element of risk. They perceive that hospital represents a more risky place to give birth than at home and that interventions and interruptions during labour and birth increase risk. Women who birth outside the system perceive the risks of birth in hospital differently to most women. These women feel that by birthing outside the system they are making a choice that protects them and their babies from the risks associated with birthing in hospital and thus provides them with the best and safest birthing option.

Conclusion

in pursuing the best for themselves and their babies, women who birth outside the system spent a lot of time and energy considering the risks and weighing these up. For them birth in hospital is considered less safe than birth at home.

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Mel is my m/w. She's doing a PhD on this topic atm. We've had some great discussions about this, because I'm also considered high risk as a VBAC.

Ash & Loulabelle : hope all is going well. And all the best for your upcoming births.

Jen: would love to see the pics too.

I have a video on YouTube but can only be watched if I add your email address. As I want to limit who sees it.

*cough cough*

Tegam - can you give me the name of some good midwives around Brisbane/caboolture area please?

Just...doing uh...more...research.....

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*cough cough*

Tegam - can you give me the name of some good midwives around Brisbane/caboolture area please?

Just...doing uh...more...research.....

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just research hey?

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Vicki Chan does Brisbane doesnt she? Amaaaazing, incredible woman.

MNB you can pm me I know a few. I just birthed on the sunshine coast. I would suggest Kate Pernham. She is the MW who works with my MW often. She is lovely, and very experienced. Vicki does the sunshine coast as she lives in buderim and she often is away doing outreach work in foreign countries.

MNB, I thought u were down in tassie??? How exciting!! Maybe we could meet up! Also Anne Endes is a midwife who works independently and at caboolture hospital. I don't know her personally. But we r fb friends. She has medicare for midwives, so she might be good.

By the way...... Congratulations on your ahhhh...... Research project

I understand the research MNB... if we contemplate another I will need to research and talk to MWs BEFORE even getting pregnant because I need to know if I'm up against "high rick" now I'm over 35 (I've heard that's an issue in the states!!!)

Thanks to everyone for your kind words about losing my mum. It is still triggering to write about it so thank you for your compassion. Mother's aren't allowed to "depart" in our society and I think that makes such a struggle for women who are dealing with PTSD and PND after the birth of their children :(

That's a really interesting article hoti- thanks for sharing! I felt like that even though I was not "high risk". I was not one of those women who was happy to transfer at the slightest whim and only wanted to HB if things were easy. I really believe we were safer at home and I was only going to hospital unconscious!

Meow I was/am the same I would only be transferred if absolutely necessary. But that's where I trust my midwife to know when there is a need rather than a scare iykwim.

Mrs nerd burger: I will ask Tegam for you as she hasn't got much of a chance to get on the computer at the moment.

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But that's where I trust my midwife to know when there is a need rather than a scare iykwim.

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Same, I was very careful about choosing my MW so that I trusted her on the issue of transfer.

Thanks guys :hug:

Meow - big hugs lovely

Bella - I'm in caboolture :) well, bellmere really.

I have a friend who is a student midwife who said she will be my support in hospital, thinks I'm pretty high risk for a home birth (given my age, would be 5th pregnancy, vbac again -still, and cos I tend to bleed) so I emailed my midwife from tas to ask her - she said I should have stayed there cos they wouldn't consider me to be high risk!

I'm happy to go to caboolture hospital with Lisa cos I know she would support me and I wouldn't have to fight anyone cos she would get everyone to leave me alone, but having support at home would be better!

If your old MW didn't think of u as high risk, then I doubt that Kate would. Also caboolture has a pretty good reputation for their maternity services. I went there for antenatal care a couple of times. Didn't tell them that I was planning a hb, but it was where I chose to transfer to if necessary. I am in caloundra, so it wasn't much further than Nambour.

As for a student stopping people from interfering during a birth, can I say with respect that that is harder than it sounds..... When u work in a unit and have relationships with the other clinicians, it can actually make it much harder than if you don't know them at all. I have seen that played out so many times and heard it even more. When the consequences of standing up for you mean being fired or failed on her placement are there it can be hard. I don't doubt her intention or desire to protect you, but I have seen it go wrong. Funnily enough my MW is writing her thesis for her phd on the subject of how mw's struggle to be "with women" when they are also "with the institution". So we have had many chats about that. Having said that if u find a great MW and then have to transfer because something is going wrong, then ur friend may be able to smooth ur way in those circumstances. Good luck tho love. I hope u find the perfect MW for you and the perfect birth in the perfect environment.

Thanks Bella. I used to live in Caloundra many moons ago! Small world. When I say my friend is a student midwife, she is, but she is also employed at Caboolture hospital as a nurse - so not sure if that changes stuff? When she had her last boy - (10 pound 11!!), she had a water birth at caboolture, even though they're not supposed to do that - she just didn't get out of the bath and kept on pushing. So I'm pretty sure she would fight for me to have one too.

Having said that - I definitely would want a home birth over that - I'm just minutes from cab hospital anyway. well... 10... LOL

Em - I missed your post before, I was on my phone and for some reason your post didn't come up? But thanks for getting in touch with Tegam for me. xxxx

I agree you should keep looking into a HB. Why fight for what you want in hospital when you can just have it at home?

Your bleeds haven't been severe from what you said and there is lots you can do in pregnancy to avoid bleeding. And you can drink certain teas/take herbs immediately post birth to assist too. Start researching with a MW and you'll be fine :)